Comparison of Amtrak vs. other transport mode

[user 14106]

On another note - the Eagle is a tricky one and I wouldn't necessarily apply my same conclusions about the east to the Eagle. It is indeed a rather long route - but it lacks the same level of scenery and ridership as its peer routes - hence it's understandably going to be the lowest priority of the western routes. Hopefully the cuts will be reversed as more equipment and staff is available.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

May I respectively suggest perhaps you simply found by flying more that you prefer flying as your mode of transportation when you're simply trying to get there and when the train and train amenities isn't a primary reason for your trip. If I'm correct there's nothing wrong with that - everyone has different preferences and reasons for taking Amtrak when they do.

You may suggest that but I don't believe it is the reality for me.

 

[user 14106]

You may suggest that but I don't believe it is the reality for me.

I meant no offense - your post just seemed to indicate that absent certain amenities your preference tips towards flying. Either way it's your business - peoples' travel preferences are what they are everyone is different and I'm not criticizing that more just interested in understanding what your preference it. My main point is - not everyone's primary reason for liking or preferring rail travel is the dining or lounge cars - especially outside those primary western routes.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I meant no offense - your post just seemed to indicate that absent certain amenities your preference tips towards flying. Either way it's your business - peoples' travel preferences are what they are everyone is different and I'm not criticizing that more just interested in understanding what your preference it. My main point is - not everyone's primary reason for liking or preferring rail travel is the dining or lounge cars - especially outside those primary western routes.

No offense taken. In case you missed it I also mentioned the poor customer service that I have received on Amtrak trains. That + a decline in amenities (food quality, etc.) along with higher prices for Tickets made Amtrak less of a value for me vs. flying.

I disagree on the East / West trains as well. I think the Silver Trains and Lake Shore should have the best service since they are the most profitable trains. Not sure why the trains that lose the most money should get the best service?

 

[Rasputin]

I disagree on the East / West trains as well. I think the Silver Trains and Lake Shore should have the best service since they are the most profitable trains. Not sure why the trains that lose the most money should get the best service?

The Lake Shore and the Capitol are one-night trains which serve major metropolitan areas of the country. They should be operated as first class operations and shining examples of modern rail transportation not as neglected entities with no future.

 

[jebr]

The decline in amenities, and poor customer service is what drove me away. Not the OTP. I actually found Amtrak to be about as reliable as airlines in my limited anecdotal experiences.

Sure, different things will drive different people away. I think on the whole airlines are generally more reliable, but each person only gets a small window with personal experiences and I don't easily have the data to show one way or the other. I will say that airlines have a much bigger network benefit, so while airlines may cancel a higher percentage of flights than Amtrak cancels trains, airlines can much more easily reroute a passenger with just a few hours of delay when that happens. Amtrak, outside of the corridors, really doesn't have that option. Delays have been far rarer for me on airlines than Amtrak, and I think most people perceive an 8 hour Amtrak delay worse than a 4 hour delay to their destination due to being rebooked after a cancelled flight.

But if you travelled Amtrak after experiencing those delays (or hearing about them,) you've basically factored that into your decision making. I'd argue that a lot of regular Amtrak passengers, particularly long-distance ones, don't care enough about OTP for that to be the deciding factor. However, for new travelers it's a really hard sell to get them on-board if you have to preface it with "make sure not to schedule anything for the night of your arrival despite the ticket saying you'll arrive at 4 PM" (and yes, that's the advice that I often have to give when talking about Amtrak from MSP to Chicago, and it hampers people's desire to take Amtrak.)

For me, part of my push for better OTP (and, long term, faster and more frequent trains) is that when I look elsewhere in the world and see (at least virtually) what train services are most relevant to people and get enough political support to be sustained and grow long-term, it's not the higher-end long-distance sleeper services. It's the regional networks and high-speed trains; ones that get people to where they want to go fast and reliably, even if the on-board food is just a cart service or bistro car. The train that's most relevant in the markets that it serves isn't the long-distance trains, even years ago when the service was better. It's the northeast corridor, where it's so relevant that for WAS - NYC it's at/above the airline's market share. On the opposite end, despite the Canadian being arguably the nicest train that's not exclusively a tourist train, I would be shocked if it held even 5% of the market share between Winnipeg and Saskatoon.

In order for trains to be successful in the US long-term, we need to look and see what makes trains relevant to travelers, particularly ones in other developed countries, and make decisions based on what we learn from that. Surveying only current Amtrak passengers won't give a complete picture, because you'll never find out why people don't choose Amtrak in the first place.

 

[Northwestern]

I think the vast majority of never agains on Amtrak when people are taking Amtrak for transportation are OTP and major delays due to equipment issues, etc along with how they treat, communicate with, and accommodate passengers when an issue occurs - in fact they've even found that OTP drives customer responses to other categories in customer satisfaction index. IE. if you have a massive delay - people are more likely to rate everything less including food and beverage, service, etc.

May I respectively suggest perhaps you simply found by flying more that you prefer flying as your mode of transportation when you're simply trying to get there and when the train and train amenities isn't a primary reason for your trip. If I'm correct there's nothing wrong with that - everyone has different preferences and reasons for taking Amtrak when they do. But I would respectively suggest that the vast majority of people taking trips for the experience of riding and where those amenities are paramount are taking the western trains like the Zephyr. The fact is changes like flexible dining has had a negligible effect on ridership on the eastern trains. Not that I wouldn't be happy if they brought it back or that I think that it wouldn't improve CSI scores. But I don't believe it is paramount on those trains in my opinion at least.

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I think the term 'never again" is mostly attributed to long distance Amtrak passengers. It might apply to people who have had a bad experience on commuter trains, but I think the main concern with train commuters is on time performance. I do agree that flex meals are not as loathed by passengers on commuter trains, but the meals need to be palatable. Quality hot meals, I think, are of a major importance with people on a long distance train for 1-2 days.

With long distance passengers, poor food, uncouth passengers in coach, and an occasional surly train attendant might well justify "never again". The decline of various amenities such as lounge and parlor cars and the exorbitant cost of a sleeper could be a factor. I will never suggest Amtrak to any friend, with the only exception being an Amtrak commuter such as the Cascades or Pacific Surfliners . A list of complaints or a more positive list of suggestions for improvement seem to fall on deaf ears.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

it's not the higher-end long-distance sleeper services. It's the regional networks and high-speed trains; ones that get people to where they want to go fast and reliably, even if the on-board food is just a cart service or bistro car. The train that's most relevant in the markets that it serves isn't the long-distance trains, even years ago when the service was better. It's the northeast corridor, where it's so relevant that for WAS - NYC it's at/above the airline's market share.

It should be noted that WAS - NYC has a crazy amount of frequency and also offers the only true “1st class” Amtrak product that includes amenities such as full meals and unlimited free booze.

I think that’s part of the success too. A wide range of classes ( NE Regional Coach / BC and Acela BC / 1st) along with lots of frequency, and of course relatively high speeds and good OTP.

 

[toddinde]

I'm still wondering why we needed to be told that the passenger was a pastor, and a big man.

I think it was because he made a point of slamming Amtrak as part of his sermon. The fact that he was large may have made the delay all the more unpleasant for him. Just surmising from what I got out of the story. “The large pastor from Texas won’t ride Amtrak again.”

 

[zephyr17]

Portly pastor pouts, poormouths Amtrak.

 

[TheCrescent]

I took an airline called Tower Air in the 1990s. Horrible experience and I vowed never to take a discount airline again. And I haven’t, except for one trip on JetBlue just to see what all of the fuss is about.

I have no interest in taking an intercity bus ever but my one trip on Greyhound (about 100 miles in the 1990s) was fine.

 

[Qapla]

When it comes the "never again" sentiment, it seems to me, after watching the Weather Channel and morning news that more people will end up not going anywhere.

Lately, every morning they announce many plane cancellations and airport delays. They talk about the heavy rains and tornados that seem to be increasing - while the local news covers all the traffic jams and delays on the highways.

So, if being delayed is the main reason for saying "never again" to Amtrak, people would also have to say "never again" to air travel and driving - the delays are daily and significant.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I've been lucky enough to only have a few serious delays on Amtrak, but I also know that Amtrak's LDN is not dependable enough for me to plan anything important for the first 24 hours on arrival. Combined with limited frequencies and poor calling times this means that instead of a three hour flight to the West Coast Amtrak takes three or four days at triple the cost. Unless you're a railfan or are terrified of flying and incapable of driving it makes no sense. I'm not sure who or what can fix this but Amtrak needs it fixed to be relevant outside of their commuter routes.

 

[jebr]

So, if being delayed is the main reason for saying "never again" to Amtrak, people would also have to say "never again" to air travel and driving - the delays are daily and significant.

Amtrak has two trains a day in MSP. From the beginning of the year until 6/1, 54 of 118 eastbound trains have been delayed more than an hour, and 15 of 118 westbound trains have been delayed. That's not counting the 8 westbound trains and 16 eastbound trains that either were cancelled, in service disruption with no status reported, or simply didn't report a status at all. At least for the few dates I looked at, those were days where Amtrak had to either cancel due to operational issues or the train was very significantly delayed.

That means that 31 of 118 westbound trains were delayed over an hour, cancelled, or likely cancelled/significantly delayed, which would be 26.3% of all trains that direction. Eastbound is far worse - 62 of 118 trains were delayed over an hour, cancelled, or likely cancelled/significantly delayed, which is 52.5% of all trains. Add the two together and that's 93 of 236 trains - or 39.4% of all trains delayed/cancelled/likely cancelled.

Compare that to the airlines, which even on a very bad day like yesterday (where they're in the news for the number of delays they had) American Airlines had 7% of flights cancelled and 23% of flights delayed, and United was at 4% cancelled/21% delayed. The other major US airlines had similar or better statistics yesterday. Here's the FlightAware link, although there's no way to link to "delays/cancellations on 6/1/2022," so that page will always go to yesterday's info. These are the type of delays that get news coverage across the board, and the ones that airlines consider "very bad days" for them. And yet, the performance on their worst days is still better than the average Amtrak day in MSP!

There's also a huge difference between a delay or cancellation at a major airport, where there's a large contingent of restaurants to eat at, different stores to shop at, and a chance to find a quiet gate somewhere to zone out a bit, and most train stations in the US, which are typically pretty basic affairs with a single waiting area that's often crowded at train time, vending machines, and...that's about it. Even the train station here at MSP just has a ticket counter, seating, bathrooms, and a vending machine, and there isn't a whole lot obviously open within a short walk, especially every day. Airlines also have multiple flights a day to most of their destinations, and usually from multiple airports, so even if a delay causes a missed connection I still have a decent shot of still getting there without an unexpected overnight somewhere. Look around this forum and recommendations abound to plan an overnight between the western and eastern LD trains if at all possible, because Amtrak simply can't be counted on to reliably make those connections and there's no same-day backup. There's no similar obvious metrics regarding roads, but I don't recall the last time traffic or construction delayed me by an hour or more even on a longer trip, and certainly not something that happens 40% of the time!

Amtrak has an OTP problem that severely handicaps it on many of its routes, far worse than airlines or roads. Amtrak needs to fix it as much as they possibly can, because ignoring it is not an option if we want more people to take Amtrak seriously as a travel option.

 

[cirdan]

I have no interest in taking an intercity bus ever but my one trip on Greyhound (about 100 miles in the 1990s) was fine.

I have long avoided going anywhere near Greyhound on account of what people say.

But then one day I took one out of necessity, expecting the worst, but everything was good and I saw no reason to complain.

And then I took another and another and same thing.

 

[rs9]

I have long avoided going anywhere near Greyhound on account of what people say.

But then one day I took one out of necessity, expecting the worst, but everything was good and I saw no reason to complain.

And then I took another and another and same thing.

Similarly, I had read numerous dire depictions of the Boston-Albany "bustitution." I ended up on that very bus on 5/23 en route from BOS to CHI.

Besides the boarding process being a bit tedious (more of a South Station problem, very little seating available), the trip could not have been more pleasant. The buses were clean and spacious with comfortable seats. The driver and attendant were friendly and attentive. The journey to Albany was completed in half the time the train would have taken. The temperature was...a lot more in control than the Amfleet I BC/cafe car I was eventually in. I was even able to work on the bus, though only with some planning ahead as I knew there would be no Internet access beyond a hotspot from my phone.

 

[Rasputin]

Similarly, I had read numerous dire depictions of the Boston-Albany "bustitution." I ended up on that very bus on 5/23 en route from BOS to CHI.

Besides the boarding process being a bit tedious (more of a South Station problem, very little seating available), the trip could not have been more pleasant. The buses were clean and spacious with comfortable seats. The driver and attendant were friendly and attentive. The journey to Albany was completed in half the time the train would have taken. The temperature was...a lot more in control than the Amfleet I BC/cafe car I was eventually in. I was even able to work on the bus, though only with some planning ahead as I knew there would be no Internet access beyond a hotspot from my phone.

I am glad to hear that your bustitution was enjoyable. I have no aversion to traveling by bus and I have had many pleasant bus trips but our Albany - Boston bustitution was pretty poorly handled. I don't care to repeat it.

 

[jruff001]

Amtrak has an OTP problem that severely handicaps it on many of its routes, far worse than airlines or roads. Amtrak needs to fix it as much as they possibly can, because ignoring it is not an option if we want more people to take Amtrak seriously as a travel option.

Agreed. Anyone who thinks the reliability of Amtrak is anywhere near that of the airlines is not living in reality.

 

[user 14106]

I've been lucky enough to only have a few serious delays on Amtrak, but I also know that Amtrak's LDN is not dependable enough for me to plan anything important for the first 24 hours on arrival. Combined with limited frequencies and poor calling times this means that instead of a three hour flight to the West Coast Amtrak takes three or four days at triple the cost. Unless you're a railfan or are terrified of flying and incapable of driving it makes no sense. I'm not sure who or what can fix this but Amtrak needs it fixed to be relevant outside of their commuter routes.

There are people that take those trains end to end that aren't railfans - but I think many of those are also "doing it for the experience" type trips which due to the great views and country along those routes they have a market for that. I don't think the nothing for 24 hours necessarily applies in the east - but certainly out west for a 2 night trip.

 

[MARC Rider]

I am glad to hear that your bustitution was enjoyable. I have no aversion to traveling by bus and I have had many pleasant bus trips but our Albany - Boston bustitution was pretty poorly handled. I don't care to repeat it.

I was "treated" to an emergency bustitution on the Pennsylvanian (Harrisburg - Pittsburgh) last year, and it was pretty well handled. It helped that they used multiple buses and thus each bus didn't have to make all the stops the train did. It also helped that my bus wasn't full, and I had 2 seats to myself, otherwise it might have been a little cramped. Other than that, the bus was new and clean, the seats reasonably comfortable, and the only real delay we had was waiting at a grade crossing for a long Norfolk Southern freight train. Yes, even when Amtrak puts you on a bus, the class Is still manage to find a way to obstruct the journey.

 

[Rasputin]

I was "treated" to an emergency bustitution on the Pennsylvanian (Harrisburg - Pittsburgh) last year, and it was pretty well handled. It helped that they used multiple buses and thus each bus didn't have to make all the stops the train did. It also helped that my bus wasn't full, and I had 2 seats to myself, otherwise it might have been a little cramped. Other than that, the bus was new and clean, the seats reasonably comfortable, and the only real delay we had was waiting at a grade crossing for a long Norfolk Southern freight train. Yes, even when Amtrak puts you on a bus, the class Is still manage to find a way to obstruct the journey.

Our Albany - Boston substitution was known well in advance so it was not an emergency. I can't recall if it was due to scheduled CSX trackwork or MBTA trackwork. Our New Orleans - Jackson, MIss. was also known in advance and was not an emergency but at least that one was well planned and well-executed.

 

[Qapla]

I would like to visit some friends in San Antonio. There is no direct train from Florida. To avoid an extremely long and expensive rail only trip I can take MegaBus to Atlanta and Amtrak from there. I have never traveled on MegaBus.

 

[jruff001]

I would like to visit some friends in San Antonio. There is no direct train from Florida. To avoid an extremely long and expensive rail only trip I can take MegaBus to Atlanta and Amtrak from there. I have never traveled on MegaBus.

Taking Amtrak from Atlanta to San Antonio is what I would call an extremely long and expensive trip, since it would involve an overnight in New Orleans.

Plus a long bus ride before that from Florida to Atlanta? The train leaves Atlanta in the morning so we are talking either an overnight bus trip or an overnight in Atlanta.

So this is all or parts of three or four calendar days to get from FL to TX (the train arrives in San Antonio after midnight). This is an itinerary where it would make way more sense to fly. Not sure where in FL you are but you can get from Tampa to San Antonio in 2 1/2 hours on Southwest.

 

[zephyr17]

While the time savings of flying are not usually a compelling argument to those of us that prefer rail (we already know it takes a lot less time to fly), the complexity and addition of a long bus ride in this case, especially since the bus ride might be overnight, are. For myself, an overnight bus ride would be an absolute stopper, I won't go overnight in Amtrak coach, which is more comfortable than any bus. Adding a hotel night to avoid it adds time and expense, in addition to the mandatory overnight layover in New Orleans to connect from the Crescent to the Sunset.

Even for me, a die hard rail traveler, that is too much. If it were me, I'd either eat the Florida-WAS-CHI-SAS routing, or fly. Come to think of it, since the Eagle in its current condition is not worth riding on (neither is the Capitol, but the ride is shorter, both together is a "hell, no!"), I'd just fly.

I am in a similar, but much simpler situation myself. Due to Amtrak and VIA not yet committing to running the Maple Leaf through, I have to make some other arrangements to get from Toronto to New York. I will be taking the Maple Leaf and have that booked from Niagara Falls, NY, so as to snag one of the few business class seats on the Maple Leaf. My current plan B is take MegaBus from Toronto to Buffalo, and modify my Amtrak ticket from Niagara Falls to Buffalo-Exchange Street if I have to execute it. It is just a couple hour bus ride in the morning, so that is not a big deal. My preferred plan is that the Leaf starts running through and I'll buy a Toronto-Niagara Falls, NY ticket from VIA and get points and segment credit from them.

It is only like an hour by air (plus getting out to Pearson, and getting to Manhattan from LGA or JFK), and the Maple Leaf is not a particularly scenic ride since the good part on it (Hudson River) will be after dark, but I still prefer the train. But even I would not do what Qapla proposed.

 

[John Santos]

I could seeing cutting Amtrak some slack for bad luck, but six issues for a single, (scheduled) six-hour journey? What I heard from riding last time in the Midwest, is that Amtrak management does not care about their employees or passengers.

[European airline info deleted]

It definitely was NOT a scheduled 6-hour journey. They were going to Louisiana and got delayed in San Antonio. The OP doesn't say if they were boarding in SAS or just got delayed there, and it doesn't say WHERE in LA they were going. If they boarded at the 1st stop before SAS (DRT) at 1:02 AM, they should have arrived in Lake Charles (the 1st stop in Louisiana) and 3:29 PM, or almost 14 1/2 hours later. If they started in SAS at 6:25 AM to LCH, it would have been a scheduled 9hr trip, which is the shortest possible trip consistent with the original post.

The original post was a little ambiguous, but I think it was saying there was a 6 hour delay in a scheduled 12 hour trip, making it 18 hours (in coach.) This would be a lot better than 18 hours in an airline coach(!) but still a pretty extreme delay without A/C.

My CZ was 4 hours late into CHI on Monday, but I still had plenty of time to catch the LSL (but all I had time for was a bad dinner at the CUS McDonalds since I wanted to take a shower in the Metropolitan Lounge.) I think the people trying to catch the Capitol Limited just made it. We were on-time in Winnemucca NV, but the replacement crew had to wait two hours before starting because of some delay in their previous trip and they needed their rest period. Then, just as we were about to leave, there was a medical emergency which took another 20-30 minutes. (Though I think the passenger was very happy to have it happen at a station rather than in the middle of nowhere two hours east of Winnemucca!) We lost a couple of more hours somewhere overnight after Elko and another hour climbing up to Moffett Tunnel, but got back an hour or so the next day. My LSL (Boston section) was on time leaving Albany, but while we were still in New York State, we had to wait almost an hour for a freight train to clear a single-track section in Chester NY, so we were an hour or more late the entire trip. So much for the notion that freight train interference only happens when the Amtrak train is off schedule.

Unfortunately, Amtrak delays are much too common. Maybe if they finally, after more than 50 years, they finally start enforcing passenger train priority, and fine the freights for violating the law, things will improve. We will see...