Cops called after fliers fight over seat recline

[Bob Dylan]

And yet it was in an Acela that I got yelled at for reclining my seat

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Now that you're moving to Florida where people are friendlier, maybe you won't get yelled at while riding on the train! (but you may get a yoga lesson!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I have oft felt that Florida is the only place with less friendly people than in NYMA.

 

[fairviewroad]

I make no apologies for reclining my seat and I make no attempt to ask permission. It is my seat. My space. I have paid for it.

In all my years of flying I've never once seen or heard any mention of my purchasing a specific amount of space for my personal use. Nor have I seen anything indicating that a specific amount of seat recline is part of my purchase. Certainly not in any of the purchasing pages, confirmation documents, recap emails, tickets, ticket jackets, or boarding passes.

United specifies "seat recline" on its seating charts. American, on its seating charts, points out that some rows

have "limited recline" or "no recline." On Flyertalk there are many cases of people getting compensation from airlines

when their seat is defective and does not recline. The ability to recline a seat is an expected and advertised amenity on

airlines that offer it. You might also note that the Knee Defender is not permitted by all major US carriers. Seriously, what

can you derive from this other than that airlines wish for their passengers to be able to use their seats as designed?

And frankly, anyone flying coach who decides it's a good idea to set up their laptop on the tray table is naive or else itching for a confrontation.

To be perfectly frank you seem to be the only member who is "itching for a confrontation" over this.

Because I'm defending my point of view? :huh:

 

[jis]

I have oft felt that Florida is the only place with less friendly people than in NYMA.

Assuming that this pithy comment is somehow related to my comment about being yelled at for reclining my seat in an Acela, how did Florida come up in this discussion. Last time I looked there were no Acelas running around in Florida.
If it was about something else then I suppose I have no idea what the context of the statement is, so I will just ignore the whole line of conversation.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I have oft felt that Florida is the only place with less friendly people than in NYMA.

Assuming that this pithy comment is somehow related to my comment about being yelled at for reclining my seat in an Acela, how did Florida come up in this discussion. Last time I looked there were no Acelas running around in Florida.
If it was about something else then I suppose I have no idea what the context of the statement is, so I will just ignore the whole line of conversation.

I think he was responding to Jim's post which said Floridians were friendlier.

 

[jis]

I have oft felt that Florida is the only place with less friendly people than in NYMA.

Assuming that this pithy comment is somehow related to my comment about being yelled at for reclining my seat in an Acela, how did Florida come up in this discussion. Last time I looked there were no Acelas running around in Florida.
If it was about something else then I suppose I have no idea what the context of the statement is, so I will just ignore the whole line of conversation.

I think he was responding to Jim's post which said Floridians were friendlier.

Ah OK, That is why god invented excerpting of context in messages
Yeah, I do find that the Floridians are more laid back and friendlier and considerably less stuck up than folks in NYMA. Of course it doesn't really take much to achieve that But when it comes to socio/political attitudes they are weirder in the unpredictable direction when compared to the NYMA crowd in general. So you win some and lose some.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

United specifies "seat recline" on its seating charts. American, on its seating charts, points out that some rows have "limited recline" or "no recline." On Flyertalk there are many cases of people getting compensation from airlines when their seat is defective and does not recline. The ability to recline a seat is an expected and advertised amenity on airlines that offer it. You might also note that the Knee Defender is not permitted by all major US carriers. Seriously, what can you derive from this other than that airlines wish for their passengers to be able to use their seats as designed?

The airlines did not design the seats. The seat designers did not determine the pitch. The combination of those two variables is what’s creating this problem. What part of that is still confusing you?

Today’s seats barely recline at all and yet when they do recline there is so little clearance that they risk causing pain or injury to the passenger behind them. Due to the relative strengths and weaknesses of the human body if a passenger pushes his back into the cushions of their seat they will be able to substantially overpower the hard plastic and metal actuators which impact the unprotected kneecaps of the passenger behind them. Presumably this is why someone came up with the idea of a device that prevents people from using their seat in a way that harms others just to get an extra inch or two of recline. In the past I thought it was a rather silly that someone felt we needed to take things that far. I figured a simple explanation of the problem and an appeal for civility would be enough to resolve it. Nonetheless you've made it quite clear that all the explaining in the world won’t deter some people. I guess some folks just cannot accept that some things may change over time and that they just might have to change along with it. Which I suppose is why the Knee Defender exists in the first place.

And frankly, anyone flying coach who decides it's a good idea to set up their laptop on the tray table is naive or else itching for a confrontation.

To be perfectly frank you seem to be the only member who is "itching for a confrontation" over this.

Because I'm defending my point of view? :huh:

You’re free to continue defending your point of view and I’m free to continue defending my knees from people like you. If both of us end up getting kicked off a plane then as you can imagine it’s a small price to pay to protect my knees from harm. I wonder if you’ll feel the same way after making a scene over three inches of recline most folks would barely notice let alone miss.

 

[fairviewroad]

The airlines did not design the seats. The seat designers did not determine the pitch. The combination of those two variables is whats creating this problem. What part of that is still confusing you?

Actually, I am genuinely confused by your logic here. You speak as though the airline has no control over the content of its aircraft. Airlines can configure their cabins however they like. They can space the seats as close [FAA-permitting] or as far apart as they like. Who did or did not design the seats is an irrelevant detail. Airlines can and do replace cabin seating or rearrange seating all the time. They can even disable the recline mechanism.

I figured a simple explanation of the problem and an appeal for civility would be enough to resolve it. Nonetheless you've made it quite clear that all the explaining in the world wont deter some people.

That's not true at all. No one has ever asked me to keep my seat upright. If someone were to politely ask me, I would certainly take their concerns to heart. There is a big difference between "I need to work on my laptop" and "I will be physically harmed if you recline your seat." If you ever find yourself behind me, feel free to ask. But the onus should not be on the person reclining since they are using their seat in the way it was designed to be used. The imposition is on the part of the person who wishes another passenger to forgo the amenity.

Youre free to continue defending your point of view and Im free to continue defending my knees from people like you.

The chief difference being that your "defense" potentially violates airline policy [the major US carrier prohibit the use of the "Knee Defender", as you know]. If, by "defending" you mean that you will politely ask the person in front of you to keep his or her seat upright, I'm totally cool with that. I'm sure you are aware that there are airlines that have disabled the seat recline function on their aircraft and I would encourage you to choose those carriers or to purchase space in premium cabins where this won't be an issue.

 

[CHamilton]

Boeing does create interiors for its planes, which may be toured in showrooms for clients. I was able to tour the 787 showroom a few years ago, and what I saw was a lot nicer than anything currently being used by the commercial airlines. I assume Airbus does the same.

 

[railiner]

If I am not mistaken, the recliner mechanism may be more than just locked out....it can be adjusted, thereby increasing, or reducing the degree of recline allowed.

So if say originally the seats had a 34" pitch, and the backs would recline about 20 degrees, and the airline decided to tighten up the pitch to 31"; they could reduce the decline range to only about 10 degrees. Not much, but enough to make passenger's feel like they were still getting some recline ability, and at the same time, protecting the space of the person behind. I am only citing those figures as an example, just for this illustration. I don't know what is actually used, or what would be ideal....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Not directly related to planes, but it seems like when Greyhound rebuilt some old buses, they increased the recline in the seats because they had increased the seat pitch by taking out a row. Or maybe that type of seat originally had 55 degrees of recline which sounds almost ridiculous but that's right.

I've seen 747-8I promo vids that showed sleeping berths like on Amtrak, but try finding that in the real 747-8I.

Actually, maybe airlines should consider sleeping berths.

 

[Anderson]

Not directly related to planes, but it seems like when Greyhound rebuilt some old buses, they increased the recline in the seats because they had increased the seat pitch by taking out a row. Or maybe that type of seat originally had 55 degrees of recline which sounds almost ridiculous but that's right.

I've seen 747-8I promo vids that showed sleeping berths like on Amtrak, but try finding that in the real 747-8I.

Actually, maybe airlines should consider sleeping berths.

There are a few airlines that have experimented with private bedrooms onboard. The main issue is that there are very few flights that are long enough to justify planes being overhauled to that extent, to say nothing of the reduced passenger loads you'd probably run into in such a layout.

 

[jis]

The weight penalty of full sleeping berths is prohibitive. Unlike on trains and buses, weight is a huge factor on planes. For this reason you will never see a Viewliner module used on any plane

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[Ryan]

This American Life did a piece on the Knee Defender about 2 year ago that's worth a listen:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/477/transcript

 

[CHamilton]

In related news. Seattle Times humor columnist isn't laughing about "the comforts of flying," with the exception of a small bit of snark at the end.

Solutions? We’re open to them. In keeping with the subject matter at hand, write your comprehensive ideas on a Post-it Note and send them our way.

What doesn’t fly these days? Puffery about comforts of flying

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The airlines did not design the seats. The seat designers did not determine the pitch. The combination of those two variables is whats creating this problem. What part of that is still confusing you?

Actually, I am genuinely confused by your logic here. You speak as though the airline has no control over the content of its aircraft. Airlines can configure their cabins however they like. They can space the seats as close [FAA-permitting] or as far apart as they like. Who did or did not design the seats is an irrelevant detail. Airlines can and do replace cabin seating or rearrange seating all the time. They can even disable the recline mechanism.

My point was that your endless complaining about the seat being designed to allow you to recline is rather irrelevant if the pitch provided by the airline fails to provide sufficient clearance.

I figured a simple explanation of the problem and an appeal for civility would be enough to resolve it. Nonetheless you've made it quite clear that all the explaining in the world wont deter some people.

If someone were to politely ask me, I would certainly take their concerns to heart.

That’s not how you come across at all.

Youre free to continue defending your point of view and Im free to continue defending my knees from people like you.

The chief difference being that your "defense" potentially violates airline policy [the major US carrier prohibit the use of the "Knee Defender", as you know]. If, by "defending" you mean that you will politely ask the person in front of you to keep his or her seat upright, I'm totally cool with that. I'm sure you are aware that there are airlines that have disabled the seat recline function on their aircraft and I would encourage you to choose those carriers or to purchase space in premium cabins where this won't be an issue.

I'd suggest you fly the same carriers or pay for a cabin where your need to recline won't impact anyone behind you. My guess is that the more you force the issue the quicker they'll remove the ability to recline, which is perfectly fine with me.

 

[railiner]

Not directly related to planes, but it seems like when Greyhound rebuilt some old buses, they increased the recline in the seats because they had increased the seat pitch by taking out a row. Or maybe that type of seat originally had 55 degrees of recline which sounds almost ridiculous but that's right.

I've seen 747-8I promo vids that showed sleeping berths like on Amtrak, but try finding that in the real 747-8I.

Actually, maybe airlines should consider sleeping berths.

There are a few airlines that have experimented with private bedrooms onboard. The main issue is that there are very few flights that are long enough to justify planes being overhauled to that extent, to say nothing of the reduced passenger loads you'd probably run into in such a layout.

The weight penalty of full sleeping berths is prohibitive. Unlike on trains and buses, weight is a huge factor on planes. For this reason you will never see a Viewliner module used on any plane

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

Another reason that precluded a "Viewliner module" is the safety factor, as in emergency evacuation. Just imagine having to wake up passenger's locked inside their private cabins in such a case.....The extra time it would take could be critical....

 

[CHamilton]

And now, armrests...

An end to the battle for the armrest?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/08/travel/armrest-divider-soarigami/

 

[jis]

And now, armrests...

An end to the battle for the armrest?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/08/travel/armrest-divider-soarigami/

Amtrak has already solved that problem on Amfleets by not having any arm rests to start with. So nothing to fight over, eh?
In Acelas you can fight over whether you want the armrest in the up position or down position too Usually not a problem in concluding those quickly by setting up the armrest in down position to start with. Helps preserve and protect your seat space should a rather dimensionally challenged person happen to occupy the adjacent seat.