Cost of taking trains vs cost of taking other modes in the U.S.

[joelkfla]

Even obesity can prevent flying unless someone wants to pay for two tickets.

Just want to point out that Southwest offers an additional seat at no extra cost to self-identified "customers of size". The official rule is that you need to be wider than the distance between the 2 armrests (which isn't hard to be these days.)

If you want to reserve the extra seat in advance, you do need to purchase 2 seats, but the cost of the 2nd one will be refunded upon request by phone or email after the flight. If you want the refund immediately upon arrival, you can request it at the arrival gate, but they give only a partial refund in that case.

I'm pretty sure that Southwest is the only U.S. airline to offer this.

 

[Qapla]

Since the differences in train and plane travel differ so much - it just seems like comparing them to each other is not exactly apples-to-apples

If I understand correctly, even first-class in air is still, basically, "coach" - business class and first-class on Acella is "coach" type seating, too, is it not - as opposed to private rooms like a sleeper.

It's like comparing Star Trek to Star Wars ... even though they are both SciFi - they are not the same story.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Since the differences in train and plane travel differ so much - it just seems like comparing them to each other is not exactly apples-to-apples

Well the topic of this thread is the cost of rail travel, so comparing the cost of 1st class air vs. sleeper on Amtrak is the apples to apples comparison cost wise.

On the actual airplanes “1st class” domestic varies quite a bit. It can be 2x2, 2x1, or “all aisle” which is usually 1 x 2 x 1

 

[jis]

Since the differences in train and plane travel differ so much - it just seems like comparing them to each other is not exactly apples-to-apples

If I understand correctly, even first-class in air is still, basically, "coach" - business class and first-class on Acella is "coach" type seating, too, is it not - as opposed to private rooms like a sleeper.

It's like comparing Star Trek to Star Wars ... even though they are both SciFi - they are not the same story.

Domestic First Class in air barring a few exception where intercontinental equipment is used on domestic routes, is like Coach. If intercontinental equipment is used then it is almost like Sleeper but not quite. At least there is a flat bed and a half to two third height separator providing a semi- private space.

 

[MARC Rider]

Domestic First Class in air barring a few exception where intercontinental equipment is used on domestic routes, is like Coach. If intercontinental equipment is used then it is almost like Sleeper but not quite. At least there is a flat bed and a half to two third height separator providing a semi- private space.

On First class air, both domestic and intercontinental, you eat at your seat. On long-distance trains, you can eat at a table in the dining car (even if it's Flex food on some routes) and hang out in the lounge. Even riding coach in most corridor trains, you can hang out in the cafe car. On an airplane, whatever the class, you're basically a prisoner in your seat, except for using the rest room, and even that isn't possible when the captain lights up the "fasten seat belt" sign.

 

[Larry H.]

I have never been able to figure out how the sleeper fares increased so many times over what they would have been under government regulation back in the days before Amtrak. You see Pullman advertisements in old magazines touting the advantage to going in a sleeper, and the fares in those days were only a small amount more than the coach tickets. I took a lot of trips in the 60s and didn't make much money but a room or parlor car was never any burden on the price. Now they are many times what they were in comparison to coach fares. And I agree we run way to short a car set and now its worse than ever on many trains. When a train showed sold out the companies usually never told you it was sold out, rather they ran extra cars as noted in European nations still do it. I recall riding the Empire Builder the month Amtrak was going to take over and it had a set of five bedroom cars running. I don't think I ever saw and Amtrak train with more than three cars and now your lucky if they have any at all.

 

[MARC Rider]

I posted a PRR schedule from 1930, back when they published fares in the timetables.

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/the-standard-railroad-of-the-world-1930.81187/
It seems that counting for inflation, a Baltimore - Chicago one way coach ticket cost about $28, or $468 in today's money. A lower berth cost an extra $139, for a total of $607, and sleeper fares went up from there. And you had to pay extra for food in the dining car, even if it was better than the current flex meals. As I said in the original post, with prices like that, no wonder a lot of people back in 1930 traveled hobo class.

By 1973, when I rode the Broadway Limited from Chicago to Baltimore, the coach fare was about $35 or $245 in today's money. A plane ticket was either about $55 ($385 in 2022 dollars) for a regular one-way, or $35 for a standby ticket. There were no other discounted fares at the time.

 

[jis]

On First class air, both domestic and intercontinental, you eat at your seat. On long-distance trains, you can eat at a table in the dining car (even if it's Flex food on some routes) and hang out in the lounge. Even riding coach in most corridor trains, you can hang out in the cafe car. On an airplane, whatever the class, you're basically a prisoner in your seat, except for using the rest room, and even that isn't possible when the captain lights up the "fasten seat belt" sign.

If absence of those niceties in air caused significant number of people to opt for Amtrak, Amtrak would really be in fine shape. The bottom line remains that while all of those are nice things to have, none of them are mission critical enough for a vast majority of people. There are not enough people for whom that matters enough. What matters more to most is fast, affordable, frequent service that is reliable and IRROPS is handled relatively well to get you where you want to go sooner rather than tomorrow or the day after, specially when weather related or other out of anyone's control events are not involved. That is the unfortunate reality. That is the point I have been trying to make.

 

[TheCrescent]

On First class air, both domestic and intercontinental, you eat at your seat. On long-distance trains, you can eat at a table in the dining car (even if it's Flex food on some routes) and hang out in the lounge. Even riding coach in most corridor trains, you can hang out in the cafe car. On an airplane, whatever the class, you're basically a prisoner in your seat, except for using the rest room, and even that isn't possible when the captain lights up the "fasten seat belt" sign.

On the Crescent, there is no dining car, and sleeping car passengers are not permitted to use the cafe car. Amtrak staff takes up all of the seats/tables and refuses to let passengers sit. And passengers aren’t allowed to pick up dinner from the cafe car themselves.

 

[Stremba]

I have never been able to figure out how the sleeper fares increased so many times over what they would have been under government regulation back in the days before Amtrak. You see Pullman advertisements in old magazines touting the advantage to going in a sleeper, and the fares in those days were only a small amount more than the coach tickets. I took a lot of trips in the 60s and didn't make much money but a room or parlor car was never any burden on the price. Now they are many times what they were in comparison to coach fares. And I agree we run way to short a car set and now its worse than ever on many trains. When a train showed sold out the companies usually never told you it was sold out, rather they ran extra cars as noted in European nations still do it. I recall riding the Empire Builder the month Amtrak was going to take over and it had a set of five bedroom cars running. I don't think I ever saw and Amtrak train with more than three cars and now your lucky if they have any at all.

To be fair comparisons of pre-Amtrak sleeper fares with ones today are not direct comparisons. The sleeper fares then generally did not include meal service as they now do.

 

[jis]

I think we tend to focus inordinately much on Air as the primary competition for Amtrak and also focus on relatively longer distance segments. Actually Amtrak has vast number of medium distance travelers even on LD trains and the primary competion more often is Cars than Air, by a rather large margin. Yet we seldom discuss either of those and discuss endlessly about how long distance Sleeper service competes with Air or not. Seems like a misdirected focus.

 

[Amtrak709]

To be fair comparisons of pre-Amtrak sleeper fares with ones today are not direct comparisons. The sleeper fares then generally did not include meal service as they now do.

Prompts me to recall and retell my favorite "low fare back then" story. November 18-20,1966 to visit my girlfriend (now wife) Williamsburg-Richmond-Athens, GA and return. $48.61 round trip unrestricted fare + $19.10 Bedroom Pullman ticket southbound and $8.90 Roomette Pullman ticket northbound. Yes, had to pay for my meals! If the SAL Silver Comet still existed in Amtrak today, that's probably a thousand dollar ticket.
I, incidentally, have the original rail and Pullman ticket receipts saved and framed.

 

[jis]

Prompts me to recall and retell my favorite "low fare back then" story. November 18-20,1966 to visit my girlfriend (now wife) Williamsburg-Richmond-Athens, GA and return. $48.61 round trip unrestricted fare + $19.10 Bedroom Pullman ticket southbound and $8.90 Roomette Pullman ticket northbound. Yes, had to pay for my meals! If the SAL Silver Comet still existed in Amtrak today, that's probably a thousand dollar ticket.
I, incidentally, have the original rail and Pullman ticket receipts saved and framed.

Just for completeness that in today's dollars is $447.11 for the round trip ticket plus $175.68 for Bedroom and $81.86, that is $794.68 + whatever food would have cost for the trip, which today is included in the Sleeper ticket.

Just for comparison, if you manage to get low bucket in Roomette, Orlando to Philadelphia round trip is around $950. If you miss low bucket then Orlando to Alexandria is somewhere between $1100 and $1300. I know because I did get those within the last few days for various planned trips in 2023.

 

[rs9]

This will never happen, but a user tax system would be the most feasible way to incentivize use of long-distance trains - not necessarily from end to end, but for corridor use. Amtrak or motorcoach riders should receive some sort of financial credit/tax rebate/whatever to recognize their use of less carbon-intensive travel. This might modestly boost ridership, but it would more broadly generate awareness of how our transportation choices impact our environment and society. I don't think a lot of people equate their frequent flying with their overall carbon footprint.

 

[jis]

This will never happen, but a user tax system would be the most feasible way to incentivize use of long-distance trains - not necessarily from end to end, but for corridor use. Amtrak or motorcoach riders should receive some sort of financial credit/tax rebate/whatever to recognize their use of less carbon-intensive travel. This might modestly boost ridership, but it would more broadly generate awareness of how our transportation choices impact our environment and society. I don't think a lot of people equate their frequent flying with their overall carbon footprint.

Isn't it the same as reducing the fare by the amount of the tax rebate, which would be much easier to administer? It could be specifically called out in the fare calculation if that helps.

 

[rs9]

Isn't it the same as reducing the fare by the amount of the tax rebate, which would be much easier to administer? It could be specifically called out in the fare calculation if that helps.

I think the only thing I would add is that it needs to be done in a way that is highly noticeable. When you buy an airline ticket, the lump sum cost is shown. You can find the breakdown if you want, but I don't think many people would care. In my ideal scenario, all transportation fares would be presented as (base fare) +/- carbon adjustment = total fare.

 

[ascii42]

I think the only thing I would add is that it needs to be done in a way that is highly noticeable. When you buy an airline ticket, the lump sum cost is shown. You can find the breakdown if you want, but I don't think many people would care. In my ideal scenario, all transportation fares would be presented as (base fare) +/- carbon adjustment = total fare.

Yeah. "Savings" are as much a psychological thing as a practical thing. See the results of JCPenney's "Fair and Square Pricing."

 

[jis]

I think the only thing I would add is that it needs to be done in a way that is highly noticeable. When you buy an airline ticket, the lump sum cost is shown. You can find the breakdown if you want, but I don't think many people would care. In my ideal scenario, all transportation fares would be presented as (base fare) +/- carbon adjustment = total fare.

As you mentioned it will be a miracle in a country that can't even agree on a Carbon Tax in general.

However, it is unlikely that it will constitute a very large proportion of the fare in terms of reduction either. It needs to be pretty significant to be noticeable.

 

[Bostontoallpoints]

I had to cancel my daughters Thanksgiving break Amtrak round trip ticket from Bridgeport CT. to Boston because of a scheduling conflict. I made the mistake of booking a round trip ticket, you can't cancel only one leg of a round trip through Amtrak's booking system. When I went back to book a one way fare from Boston to Bridgeport for the following Sunday all fares were over $200 for coach. This is for a 160 mile long trip about, a 3 hour car ride in traffic. I ended up driving her down and returned the same day myself. Traffic was heavy, there was a rain storm I bought dinner for the both of us. 6 hours of driving in one day is a lot. But I still can't see paying that kind of money unless you were really stuck.

 

[TheCrescent]

I had to cancel my daughters Thanksgiving break Amtrak round trip ticket from Bridgeport CT. to Boston because of a scheduling conflict. I made the mistake of booking a round trip ticket, you can't cancel only one leg of a round trip through Amtrak's booking system. When I went back to book a one way fare from Boston to Bridgeport for the following Sunday all fares were over $200 for coach. This is for a 160 mile long trip about, a 3 hour car ride in traffic. I ended up driving her down and returned the same day myself. Traffic was heavy, there was a rain storm I bought dinner for the both of us. 6 hours of driving in one day is a lot. But I still can't see paying that kind of money unless you were really stuck.

Wouldn’t taking commuter trains for part of that trip keep costs down? At least Amtrak to Providence and the T to Boston?

 

[Bostontoallpoints]

Wouldn’t taking commuter trains for part of that trip keep costs down? At least Amtrak to Providence and the T to Boston?

There is no commuter train between Wickford Junction R.I. and New London CT. That is a 42 mile gap. Oh, and I should have pointed out that typically this trip cost between $40 and $80 one way depending on the time of day.

 

[SarahZ]

Just want to point out that Southwest offers an additional seat at no extra cost to self-identified "customers of size". The official rule is that you need to be wider than the distance between the 2 armrests (which isn't hard to be these days.)

If you want to reserve the extra seat in advance, you do need to purchase 2 seats, but the cost of the 2nd one will be refunded upon request by phone or email after the flight. If you want the refund immediately upon arrival, you can request it at the arrival gate, but they give only a partial refund in that case.

I'm pretty sure that Southwest is the only U.S. airline to offer this.

They are.

Alaska Airlines will refund the second seat only if the flight isn't sold out.

Other domestic airlines don't refund the second seat at all.

 

[MARC Rider]

I think we tend to focus inordinately much on Air as the primary competition for Amtrak and also focus on relatively longer distance segments. Actually Amtrak has vast number of medium distance travelers even on LD trains and the primary competion more often is Cars than Air, by a rather large margin. Yet we seldom discuss either of those and discuss endlessly about how long distance Sleeper service competes with Air or not. Seems like a misdirected focus.

I used to travel to the Akron, Ohio area for work from Baltimore or Washington. It's about a 300 mile trip, and took me about 7 hours when you factor in meal stops and rest stops. I really would have liked to take the train, except, of course, the only train in the area stops in Cleveland, an hour away, in the middle of the night, so that doesn't work. But, just for kicks, I priced a trip for Dec. 15, 2 weeks from today. WAS-CLE, coach fare on the Capitol Limited was a Value ticket for $73. (Sleeper was $352, FWIW).

Now the cost of driving 300 miles, using the new IRS allowance of $0.625 per mile is $187.50. In addition, there's maybe $15-$20 worth of tolls, plus whatever meals you might eat on the road. If you make it an overnight trip, you have to also factor in the cost of a motel, which in most parts of the country is at least $100.

Clearly, it seems that taking the train is cheaper, at least if you don't have to rent a car at the destination. The Cap is a 10 hour trip, so you really don't need to book a sleeper, at least you wouldn't have to if they had a train on the route that would run during the day.

Another route I've taken is Washington the Charleston, SC on the Palmetto. About 450 miles., so operating a car would cost about $280. Coach on the Palmetto for Dec. 15 is $112, Business class is $168. [I should mention that I flew down to Charleston for a business trip last April, and the one-way fare was $350 (on Southwest Airlines, no less), plus a $50 Lyft to the airport and a $17 taxi to my offsite rental car location.] You could also do an overnight trip on the Silver Meteor, coach is the same, but a sleeper starts at $870. This economical coach fare certainly explains why whenever I've ridden to Palmetto north from Savannah there are always large crowds waiting to board at Charleston, Florence, Fayetteville, etc. The fact that driving I-95 through the Carolinas and Virginia is a miserable experience might also induce many people to be willing to pay a little more just to avoid having to drive their own car, or even a rental car. I have taken this trip to Hilton Head using all three modes of transportation (train, flying, and driving), and, believe me, tasking the train is the best way to go for this 450 mile trip.

 

[MARC Rider]

I had to cancel my daughters Thanksgiving break Amtrak round trip ticket from Bridgeport CT. to Boston because of a scheduling conflict. I made the mistake of booking a round trip ticket, you can't cancel only one leg of a round trip through Amtrak's booking system. When I went back to book a one way fare from Boston to Bridgeport for the following Sunday all fares were over $200 for coach. This is for a 160 mile long trip about, a 3 hour car ride in traffic. I ended up driving her down and returned the same day myself. Traffic was heavy, there was a rain storm I bought dinner for the both of us. 6 hours of driving in one day is a lot. But I still can't see paying that kind of money unless you were really stuck.

At the IRS estimate of operating costs for motor vehicles ($0.625 per mile), you just spent $200 for the 320-mile round trip, plus you had the aggravation of a 6-hour drive along I-95. Maybe you should have just spent the $200 on the train ticket for your daughter. Another possibility might have been to just drive to New London and have her take the Shore Line commuter train to New Haven, and then Metro North to Bridgeport, although I'm not sure if the Shore Line runs of Sundays.

 

[Anderson]

I have never been able to figure out how the sleeper fares increased so many times over what they would have been under government regulation back in the days before Amtrak. You see Pullman advertisements in old magazines touting the advantage to going in a sleeper, and the fares in those days were only a small amount more than the coach tickets. I took a lot of trips in the 60s and didn't make much money but a room or parlor car was never any burden on the price. Now they are many times what they were in comparison to coach fares. And I agree we run way to short a car set and now its worse than ever on many trains. When a train showed sold out the companies usually never told you it was sold out, rather they ran extra cars as noted in European nations still do it. I recall riding the Empire Builder the month Amtrak was going to take over and it had a set of five bedroom cars running. I don't think I ever saw and Amtrak train with more than three cars and now your lucky if they have any at all.

So, here's the thing: I compared the numbers somewhere on here, but pre-pandemic the high bucket fares from the Northeast to Florida (in particular) were, adjusted for inflation, about in line with the pre-Amtrak fares on Seaboard. Lower-bucket fares were a steal compared to the rates in the late 1960s. Coach is a similar story in some respects - if anything, coach would tend to be substantially more expensive than what we'd think of it being and the upcharge to a sleeper (or parlor car) was a lot smaller. I only ran into a similar fare structure once - when the Portland-Yarmouth ferry started up a few years back, for the first few months they basically ripped the old fare structure straight from the books: The transit fare was $142/person round-trip, but you could get a small cabin for two for something like another $100 (I splurged and got the $288 round-trip room to split with a friend as a graduation present for him)*. The meals on that trip were damned good - I remember the steak and delicious mashed potatoes in the a la carte restaurant.

What happened in the intervening decades is "air travel got cheap" rather than "trains got expensive" (though from a relative perspective, coming to the opposite conclusion on face value isn't unreasonable given how inflation works and how it's sometimes hard to really process stuff like that). Looking at what I can find, there are plenty of cases where a coach fare in the late 1960s was more expensive than a first class/business class** fare would be today (especially accounting for luggage allowances and the like largely being unbundled in coach now).

I say "pre-pandemic" because Amtrak has gone on a fare-hiking spree, partly driven by demand factors and partly by equipment shortages (some of which are their fault and some of which aren't).

*Ferry Operation Schedule for 2014 | Nova Star Cruises

**First/Business is a bit of a terminology mess. I'm lumping them together, noting that for a lot of airlines what was called "First" on international routes in the 1960s would be called "Business" these days.