Could Amtrak Subcontract Dining

[jis]

Qantas and BA offer pyjamas to Business travellers. I have even seen them change in the lounge pre-flight (Qantas Club privileges allow one to watch the ruling classes). Of course, these are 10 to 14 hour flights leaving well after sunset.

Ah! Good to know. Interesting that as ridership levels off and they teeter slowly towards larger losses service improves!

So whatever is provided is clearly enough clothing so as not to require much of privacy even when you have those on?

 

[jackal]

Qantas and BA offer pyjamas to Business travellers. I have even seen them change in the lounge pre-flight (Qantas Club privileges allow one to watch the ruling classes). Of course, these are 10 to 14 hour flights leaving well after sunset.

Ah! Good to know. Interesting that as ridership levels off and they teeter slowly towards larger losses service improves!

So whatever is provided is clearly enough clothing so as not to require much of privacy even when you have those on?

I'll be happy to post a picture of me wearing them when I get my computer up and running. Yes, they are a two-piece set with full-length pants and a long-sleeve shirt. Dark blue/navy with a little embroidered "First" logo on the front. Light and quite comfortable. By flying six segments on BA, I managed to snag six pairs, and I still use them to this day.

 

[jis]

I'll be happy to post a picture of me wearing them when I get my computer up and running. Yes, they are a two-piece set with full-length pants and a long-sleeve shirt. Dark blue/navy with a little embroidered "First" logo on the front. Light and quite comfortable. By flying six segments on BA, I managed to snag six pairs, and I still use them to this day.

So now you can do an experiment. You can wear one on Amtrak and see if some unsavory character tries to accost you. :lol:

 

[Green Maned Lion]

You are thinking of this wrong. Its not a downgrade from a roomette, its an upgrade from a coach seat. How many of you people who actually think I am wrong frequently overnight in coach?

No, it's not about upgrades or downgrades. It's about perceptions of value and the number of people who would pay for the various options versus their costs.

Given that overnighting in coach isn't a horrible experience, how much more could you charge for the slight upgrade to a flat bed? Would you be able to charge enough people a big enough premium to justify the cost of offering the option? Then consider the option of a slumbercoach type setup: the premium can be higher since you're offering not only the slight upgrade to a flat bed but also the increased perception of privacy, the perception of safety, and the perception of ownership of an area. Yes, those are only perceptions, but in the end perception is all that matters. Anyway, it's a very different equation.

A Viewliner (or even Amfleet) Section sleeper would be quite easy to build. After all, a section is basically a Superliner Roomette without the door and wider seats and beds. A slumbercoach, because of the design, would eschew the modular construction of the Viewliner and Superliner cars, and be impossible to do on an Amfleet. My advocated use for the Amfleets is to be turned into section sleepers for long distance trains and for use as section sleepers for through cars. New York - LAX, New York - EMY, etc.

So given my preference to use Amfleets for the cars, well, rebuilding them as section sleepers would be a hell of a lot cheaper the engineering, designing, and building a whole new class of car for a Slumbercoach- it might look like a Viewliner, but structurally it would have to be a different car.

 

[George Harris]

I realize that much has chaned over the last 60 years, but before getting all wound up about section type sleepers, there should be serious thought about why they died out in this country fairly promptly right after WW2. I know they still exist in may other parts of the world. Have ridden one in Malaysia and in Japan. Also seen them in China, where the sections are three bunks high. But in this country? Very few post-WW2 sleepers were built with sections, and where they existed the usage tended to be mosty by those traveling on expenses where that was what would be paid by your employer.

For one night, if I don't want privacy a reclining seat will do nicely.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

If the average rail car lasts 30 years, and is in revenue service 300 nights a year, it should be in revenue service for roughly 9000 nights in its lifetime.

If the cost per car is $4 million, and a $4 million single level car has space for 18 revenue roomettes if it was built without bedrooms (ignore for this discussion the ADA compliance problems that might cause), that's a little over $200,000 per roomette. We'll call it $200,000, which I suspect is still an overestimate after we account for $4 million probably being somewhat higher than the real cost.

If the benefit of a sectional car over a roomette car is that single travelers don't waste the upper bunk, that means each single traveler in the sectional saves their 9000th of the $100,000. That's somewhere around $11.

Even if there is money borrowed to pay for the car, the real savings in car construction is probably somewhere around $30 per passenger after that passenger helps to chip in on the interest payments.

So the real question is, how many single travelers are only $30 per night away from being able to afford a roomette?

Also, I've never understood how a sectional car works for daytime seating if you don't have a seat elsewhere on the train, and the stranger in the bunk above you wants to sleep three hours later than you do.

 

[MrFSS]

Also, I've never understood how a sectional car works for daytime seating if you don't have a seat elsewhere on the train, and the stranger in the bunk above you wants to sleep three hours later than you do.

As I understand it, they came through and changed from night to day configuration at a specific time. You had no choice to but to arise from your slumber and get on with the day in the upright position.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

So the real question is, how many single travelers are only $30 per night away from being able to afford a roomette?

Except that's only the difference in the cost of constructing the rail car initially, and doesn't factor in the operating costs and maintenance costs.

On the other hand, that also assumes a single level sleeper costs $3.6 million. If the car costs less than that, a passenger's share of the construction costs is also going to be less.

And having fewer accomodation types also saves Amtrak a little bit, something else which needs to be factored into the equation.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

You're not thinking about it from an operating perspective. See, operating and capital are totally separated. The whole Cross Country Cafe thing is a eye-popping example of this.

If a Viewliner 12-2-1 brings in $225 per roomette on average, some of that is meal cost. If the average room gets 1.6 passengers, and the average passengers gets one of each meal, then: $12+18+30 = $60 x 1.6 = $96 for meals. So on average, a roomette makes a gross profit of $129.

Now if you have an attendant on call for the total of 20 rooms in a theoretical all-roomette Viewliner, and the attendant works a 29 hour schedule (thats probably about average between the various Viewliner trains) at $20 an hour, that costs $580. If we divide that by the number of rooms, thats $29 a room. $100.00. Then you have the expenses involved in the Metrolounge for some passengers, the coffee, the sugar, the orange juice, the shower soap, the water, yadda yadda. I'd say thats another $10. So you are down to a net operating profit of $90 a roomette, not including fuel which I am not qualified to judge.

So if we had a theoretical 20-roomette Viewliner that train would be making a total of $1800.

If a section sleeper brings in $50 per section, and it has 40 sections. Meals are not included. The attendant could easily be someone from coach or another sleeper- all they do is make beds. $5 a passenger would be fair. $45 profit per passenger. $1800. Same profit per car.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

If a Viewliner 12-2-1 brings in $225 per roomette on average, some of that is meal cost. If the average room gets 1.6 passengers, and the average passengers gets one of each meal, then: $12+18+30 = $60 x 1.6 = $96 for meals. So on average, a roomette makes a gross profit of $129.

I have never been able to buy a BOS to CHI one way ticket with any time in a roomette for anything as low as $225 counting both railfare and accomodation charge. I think if I'd somehow managed to pay exactly 1.6 railfares, I never would have been able to get a ticket for a roomette for less than $350ish. And I don't think I've ever been assigned a roomette number higher than 4, so I'm probably nearer the low bucket than the average.

I've also been known to skip eastbound breakfast.

And I think you will find that the typical railfare for the second passenger invariably exceeds the food cost for that passenger.

If you really want to decouple the food from the room, there should be cheaper ways to do it than introducing a new car type.

I also suspect that looking at the menu prices as the costs is only a rough approximation. Hauling a dining car at all costs a lot of money, regardless of whether you fill it to capacity or only serve half as many passengers as you could serve. Having an extra server does cost something. I doubt Aramark collects more than $10 for anyone's included-with-the-sleeper dinner. So I'm not really sure Amtrak would save more than $20 per passenger if some sleeping car passengers elected to bring their own food. And those sleeping car passengers who did elect to bring their own food would probably still pay $5 or $10 for it, so the real savings might only be $10-$15 per night.

not including fuel which I am not qualified to judge.

Not to mention that 20 years from now, if we decide we don't want to be still burning diesel, the incremental cost of paying indirectly for the construction of another wind turbine will be smaller than today's cost of paying for more oil drilling. I'm starting to suspect that lithium ion battery powered locomotives will end up being cheaper to run 20 years from now than diesel locomotives.

If a section sleeper brings in $50 per section, and it has 40 sections. Meals are not included. The attendant could easily be someone from coach or another sleeper- all they do is make beds. $5 a passenger would be fair. $45 profit per passenger. $1800. Same profit per car.

So in Green Maned Lion Math, a sleeping car attendant from a traditional sleeping car can also take care of a sectional sleeper, but it would be impossible to have two sleeping car attendants cover three traditional sleeping cars?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I have never been able to buy a BOS to CHI one way ticket with any time in a roomette for anything as low as $225 counting both railfare and accomodation charge. I think if I'd somehow managed to pay exactly 1.6 railfares, I never would have been able to get a ticket for a roomette for less than $350ish. And I don't think I've ever been assigned a roomette number higher than 4, so I'm probably nearer the low bucket than the average.

The profit from a sleeper comes from the additional charge, which is the number I used. The rail fare is different and irrelevant- I used accomodation numbers for both roomette and section.

I've also been known to skip eastbound breakfast.

With Amtrak's accounting system, that is a moot point.

And I think you will find that the typical railfare for the second passenger invariably exceeds the food cost for that passenger.

So? Rail fare covers rail fare. Accommodations cover accommodations.

If you really want to decouple the food from the room, there should be cheaper ways to do it than introducing a new car type.

Obviously, but I don't. I want to create a totally separate second-class accommodation.

I also suspect that looking at the menu prices as the costs is only a rough approximation. Hauling a dining car at all costs a lot of money, regardless of whether you fill it to capacity or only serve half as many passengers as you could serve. Having an extra server does cost something. I doubt Aramark collects more than $10 for anyone's included-with-the-sleeper dinner. So I'm not really sure Amtrak would save more than $20 per passenger if some sleeping car passengers elected to bring their own food. And those sleeping car passengers who did elect to bring their own food would probably still pay $5 or $10 for it, so the real savings might only be $10-$15 per night.

Actually, the way their accounting system works, which is naturally ridiculous, each sleeping passengers meal is logged as a full-paid-meal. If we used a different system, the diners would be even less profitable, and would disappear in short order.

So in Green Maned Lion Math, a sleeping car attendant from a traditional sleeping car can also take care of a sectional sleeper, but it would be impossible to have two sleeping car attendants cover three traditional sleeping cars?

Considering the relatively low-time required to quickly convert the sections to beds, and the lack of need for making the bed to be done while the train is enroute on Viewliner trains, and the fact that section sleepers only attendant function would be bed-conversion (actually, we could probably eliminate that entirely with reasonable ease, but whatever), yes, yes I do.