Could countdown clocks partially explain the increase of violence on US subways?

[Fenway]

The CTA's Red Line is seeing more and more brazen attacks in areas like Lincoln Park and Lakeview.

I lived in Chicago back in 2008-10 and I never thought twice about walking down Belmont from Broadway to the 'L station but by 2015 I waited for the bus.

Friends who still live there are convinced the clocks did increase crime as the bad guys knew when the next train was coming.

Most major systems have clocks now and the info is certainly welcomed.




Do these clocks give an extra weapon for the bad guys? I honestly don't know.

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[Matthew H Fish]

Well, the first question to ask is: how much has crime increased on subways/light rail lines? Obviously there has been some high profile cases, but is there a statistical increase in crime---beyond the general increase in crime that has occurred across the country starting with the pandemic.

And then, is there a comparison between systems that do have countdown clocks, and those that don't? That would be good evidence, but it might be hard to compare systems, since at this point, most large systems probably do have countdown clocks.

Another thing to think about is just whether it makes sense: jumping on a train after committing a crime is not actually that great of a strategy, since someone is in an enclosed space, with a fixed destination, and often times, security cameras.

So those are the three questions I would ask right off the bat.

 

[caravanman]

The thing is that criminals are able to easily estimate the gaps in trains, if they know it's a 10 minute service, etc, even without countdown clocks.
Is the issue that criminals know they have X amount of time to rob someone on the platform before help arrives in the shape of the next train, or that they do a last second robbery, and then flee on the train?
We would all like to be as safe and secure as possible at all times, but folk are not happy paying taxes to provide that level of safety, even if such blanket safety was ever possible...

 

[Fenway]

The thing is that criminals are able to easily estimate the gaps in trains, if they know it's a 10 minute service, etc, even without countdown clocks.
Is the issue that criminals know they have X amount of time to rob someone on the platform before help arrives in the shape of the next train, or that they do a last second robbery, and then flee on the train?
We would all like to be as safe and secure as possible at all times, but folk are not happy paying taxes to provide that level of safety, even if such blanket safety was ever possible...

It's late at night at Belmont ( 11 PM on.... )

The criminals know when the southbound train to 95th/Dan Ryan will arrive and they can prey on people waiting for Red and Brown Line trains heading N and NW who might be a little tipsy at that time.

As I posted earlier I never really saw a police presence on CTA trains compared to other cities. In the early '80s, the Philadelphia Police had police dogs on the Market–Frankford Line, and NYC was a different universe.

Back around 1975, I took a cheap flight from Boston to JFK late at night and took the A train towards Manhattan. Somewhere in Brooklyn this homeless guy sleeping suddenly grabbed me and said 'Transit Police' and pulled me off the train. We go to the street level and a squad car shows up and the homeless guy says to the driver 'Get this stupid Red Sox fan into Manhattan' and they did.

 

[Trogdor]

The countdown clock argument is a hogwash argument if I’ve ever seen one. The crime wave uptick is a fairly recent development (significantly since the start of COVID). It directly parallels an uptick in crime in locations not at CTA stations, where a countdown clock wouldn’t even be a relevant thing.

Those clocks have been at most stations since 2008 or so. On CTA itself, the only thing that has changed is the absolutely unreliable service they’ve been running since the start of the pandemic. Having 20-30 minute waits for trains that are “scheduled” with a frequency of 10 or better keeps people standing on station platforms longer. Then there is the relative sense of lawlessness on the trains themselves, which CTA is remiss in addressing.

 

[Deni]

The countdown clock argument is a hogwash argument if I’ve ever seen one. The crime wave uptick is a fairly recent development (significantly since the start of COVID). It directly parallels an uptick in crime in locations not at CTA stations, where a countdown clock wouldn’t even be a relevant thing.

Those clocks have been at most stations since 2008 or so. On CTA itself, the only thing that has changed is the absolutely unreliable service they’ve been running since the start of the pandemic. Having 20-30 minute waits for trains that are “scheduled” with a frequency of 10 or better keeps people standing on station platforms longer. Then there is the relative sense of lawlessness on the trains themselves, which CTA is remiss in addressing.

Yeah, I don't buy the countdown clock argument either (I also think the alderman there, Tunney, is an idiot) and you made the point that I was going to make, the countdown clocks have been there for a long time now and there is no correlation with an uptick in crime. And that the uptick in *some* categories of crime (others are actually down) is not unique to the CTA.

Did you see the story about the tech guy who did a study and found the Blue Line has, over the period he looked at, only been running about 52% of their scheduled trains?

 

[Trogdor]

Did you see the story about the tech guy who did a study and found the Blue Line has, over the period he looked at, only been running about 52% of their scheduled trains?

I didn’t see the story, but I know the guy who did the study.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

A lot of the crime is, well, on the trains! I have a lot of friends who gripe about the L now - homeless sleeping in every car and several of my friends have had/been in situations recently where they felt distinctly threatened and would have had no way out had something happened.

 

[daybeers]

homeless sleeping in every car

Didn't know that was a crime.

 

[Deni]

Didn't know that was a crime.

It actually does violate a city ordinance. I'm not saying I agree with it, but it is what it is. We need to deal with homelessness in this country in some other way rather than criminalizing it.

 

[daybeers]

I agree and know it's against the law or policy in many places; just think it's sad people complain about it and add it to a list of reasons to not use pulic transit. Maybe they should advocate on behalf of those people to get them proper housing and resources instead of complaining.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The increase in crime is a direct result of the increase in stressors, mentally, physically, and financially, brought on primarily by the pandemic, but also the world political situation, and our countries political situation. With that last statement I’m referring more to the divisiveness that has overwhelmed our world, more than any one faction of it.

The more fractured we get, the more cliques we have, and cliques of any kind feel somewhat comfortable attacking people outside their world-nand that includes the clique of the financially indigent attacking those who are not.

 

[west point]

The stressors also cause more assaults, Murders, & suicides.

 

[George Harris]

This sounds like another of those blame everything but letting criminals get away with it for the surge in crime. I don't see the countdown clock being any form of a factor. If the point being made is that it gives a criminal an idea of how long before he can make a getaway, that is simply silly. Everyone except the deaf will hear the train coming and can time their actions accordingly, clock or no clock.

 

[pennyk]

This thread has been temporarily locked. The discussion has veered away from the original topic. Many posts have been removed as off topic/responses to removed posts or otherwise in violation of AU Rules and Guidelines.

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