Could Siemens Viaggio/Ventures be the next sleeper car?

[sttom]

I agree, but suspect some are basing an endorsement of couchettes entirely on capacity without regard for comfort. Others have done a better job of explaining why shared sleeping space behind a closed door isn't going fly in litigious North America, but as budget family rooms they make sense. As mentioned above, the lack of daytime configuration would have to be addressed.

They do have a daytime setting. With some extra padding on the seats and it will be fine. As for an open sleeper of some variety, I never really got the "people will sue them into oblivion" argument. People sleep in coach all the time and there isn't a weekly law suit. I would say they are cramped for 4 people, god help the people that do the 6 person rooms, and that would be a deal breaker for me when Sections could have a similar capacity and you're only sharing space with 1 other person vs up to 3 or 5 others.

 

[jiml]

They do have a daytime setting. With some extra padding on the seats and it will be fine. As for an open sleeper of some variety, I never really got the "people will sue them into oblivion" argument. People sleep in coach all the time and there isn't a weekly law suit. I would say they are cramped for 4 people, god help the people that do the 6 person rooms, and that would be a deal breaker for me when Sections could have a similar capacity and you're only sharing space with 1 other person vs up to 3 or 5 others.
View attachment 22128

Those actually don't look that bad - much "plusher" than the couchette car I toured in Germany. The daytime comment was in response to Post #113, regarding the couchettes with no daytime set-up. You're spot-on regarding the capacity concerns.

 

[Steve4031]

There have been issues on airplanes with where passengers have been groped or molested. In some cases the airlines handled it well, others, not so well. I am surprised nothing has ever been reported as happening on an Amtrak train. Putting strangers together in a room is just ensuring that an incident would happen.

 

[Cal]

There have been issues on airplanes with where passengers have been groped or molested. In some cases the airlines handled it well, others, not so well. I am surprised nothing has ever been reported as happening on an Amtrak train. Putting strangers together in a room is just ensuring that an incident would happen.

How common is this on airlines? What about in European sleepers?

 

[jiml]

I've edited my post above to remove the reference to potential problems with shared sleeping space. It's probably better if we stick to technical discussion of Siemens as a potential sleeping car vendor. In the unlikely event that accommodation different from the North American norm happens, there will be plenty of opportunity to talk about the implications then.

 

[Steve4031]

Here are examples:
https://www.marieclaire.com/politics/a33252517/sexual-misconduct-on-airplanes/https://www.cbsnews.com/news/airlines-grapple-with-increased-reports-of-in-flight-harassment/The flight attendants get it too.
https://www.latimes.com/travel/la-t...assment-flight-attendants-20190506-story.html
I did a google search for harassment of Amtrak passengers. The first thing that came up was the practice of searching random passengers for drugs. But no incidents of passengers bothering other passengers.

I personally witnessed a passenger on 306 paying too much attention to the LSA on Saturday. I told her she had a supportive witness in me. She stated she appreciated my support and that she was ok. I could tell she really did appreciate the support.

 

[Cal]

Here are examples:
https://www.marieclaire.com/politics/a33252517/sexual-misconduct-on-airplanes/https://www.cbsnews.com/news/airlines-grapple-with-increased-reports-of-in-flight-harassment/The flight attendants get it too.
https://www.latimes.com/travel/la-t...assment-flight-attendants-20190506-story.html
I did a google search for harassment of Amtrak passengers. The first thing that came up was the practice of searching random passengers for drugs. But no incidents of passengers bothering other passengers.

I personally witnessed a passenger on 306 paying too much attention to the LSA on Saturday. I told her she had a supportive witness in me. She stated she appreciated my support and that she was ok. I could tell she really did appreciate the support.

Anything on European sleepers with shared rooms?

 

[Steve4031]

I did not look. When I traveled on Eurail passes in the 1990s the guidebooks warned of thieves boarding trains and spraying something in the air to knock out sleeping passengers and go through a couchette car steeling belongings. There were consistent warnings to take steps to protect your belongings.

I had one uncomfortable experience in a compartment on a day train traveling between Milan and Marseilles. I was buy myself on a very uncrowded train. I was sitting in a compartment for 6 enjoying the ride along the riviera. At one point a guy entered the compartment and started a conversation with me. I was annoyed and not enthusiastic. He had a bottle of alcohol and kept insisting that I drink some with him. I said no because I didn't want any. He became more assertive saying his feelings were hurt, blah blah blah. I told him he needed to leave me alone. He refused to leave. I put my hand on the emergency brake which was in the compartment and threatened to pull it and blame him. I told him to get his a** out of there. He got up and left and I locked the door. I was freaked out. As I thought about it, I realized he probably wanted me to drink it because it had drugs that would knock me out. Then he could steal from me.

 

[jis]

In my experience problems like those tend to be more in southern Europe than in the north, and they tend to increase as one goes further east. It has been this way for a long time. Nothing new there.

 

[tricia]

Here are examples:
https://www.marieclaire.com/politics/a33252517/sexual-misconduct-on-airplanes/https://www.cbsnews.com/news/airlines-grapple-with-increased-reports-of-in-flight-harassment/The flight attendants get it too.
https://www.latimes.com/travel/la-t...assment-flight-attendants-20190506-story.html
I did a google search for harassment of Amtrak passengers. The first thing that came up was the practice of searching random passengers for drugs. But no incidents of passengers bothering other passengers.

I personally witnessed a passenger on 306 paying too much attention to the LSA on Saturday. I told her she had a supportive witness in me. She stated she appreciated my support and that she was ok. I could tell she really did appreciate the support.

Decades ago, the Former Guy assaulted a woman on an airplane--she said it was like being groped by an octopus. She'd been upgraded to a first-class seat next to him, and left in a hurry. Years later, at a charity event, he recognized her and said "You're the xxxx from the airplane!" I heard her recounting all this on a radio program last year, and from other stories told by the host and by callers in to the program, such assaults apparently at least used to be fairly common. The saddest thing about this story is that first class was close to full that day, and absolutely no one said or did anything to help her.

 

[Steve4031]

Agreed. I offered my assistance to the female LSA on 306. She new she at least had a witness if there was a he said she said situation. I don't think he ever touched her. But he kept talking with her. That is wrong too. Unless the employee has initiated additional conversation, it is best to be respectful and leave them alone.

 

[JermyZP]

To go with the topic of this thread. Simply Railway has posted a tweet about what the new bi-level from Siemens would look like if Amtrak orders in the future.

 

[jis]

Technically such a thing could not possibly be based on Siemens Venture since the Siemens Ventures have a center sill and Superliner-like cars cannot have a center sill.

 

[frequentflyer]

What was wrong with slumbercoaches? It would be a compelling product.

 

[Mailliw]

I think Slumbercoaches simply came onto the scene to late to make a difference, but it was a mistake for Amtrak to abandon the concept entirely. A modernized version is probably the best option for a budget sleeper if it can be made to work with modern safety and ADA requirements. Also the in-room toilets would need to go; having them next to the head of the bed is even worse than VI roomettes.

 

[cocojacoby]

What was wrong with slumbercoaches? It would be a compelling product.

Just out of curiosity I looked for some Slumbercoach floorplans and found this site named "Pullman Digital Library". Lot's of interesting info here including several sleeping car floorplans.

"The digital selection includes images of 1,299 Pullman car drawings"

My experience in a Slumbercoach was on the Southern in the 70s and I recall that most of the rooms were singles and there were a handful of double rooms which my girlfriend, our 2 cats and I took back and forth to college in Atlanta. I found it interesting that the version below (Slumbercoach #6006) is mostly double rooms. Also note that each double room is 6' 6" long which pretty much matches today's Viewliner rooms.

Looking at the diagram, building this today would require the loss of probably four rooms because of the need for the accessible room and also the loss of two more rooms for the shower and two toilet modules. That would be pretty close to the capacity of a Viewliner if all rooms were doubles. On the other hand if the car only had single rooms I think you are even worse off because even though the rooms are shorter (at 4') they of course would only hold one person. So figuring roughly 52 feet of linear space for the rooms, you are talking around 26 passengers max using single rooms (13 rooms each side) or 32 passengers max for double rooms (8 rooms per side).

I am doing this all quickly in my head but I think that's kind of how it would work. But check out the site for some very cool information:


[URLunfurl="true"]https://collections.carli.illinois.edu/digital/collection/nby_pullman/search/searchterm/pullman cars - drawings!Pullman Cars - Drawings/field/subjec!subjec/mode/exact!exact/conn/and!and/order/nosort/ad/asc[/URL]

 

[jpakala]

When (this was around mid-1960s) from Pittsburgh to Chicago the Baltimore & Ohio sometimes substituted a 16 duplex roomette 4 bedroom car for the 24 single & 8 double room Slumbercoach, I loved it.

 

[Ryan]

Technically such a thing could not possibly be based on Siemens Venture since the Siemens Ventures have a center sill and Superliner-like cars cannot have a center sill.

Why let things like "facts" and "physics" get in the way of some good speculation?

 

[cocojacoby]

Loading gauge for NEC and not for Superliner and Hi-Level cars.
View attachment 21992

So what would happen if Amtrak alters the Penn Station infrastructure and removed all of the catenary and added third-rail shoes to their engines? Combine that with replacing the ballast/wood tie substructure with low-profile panel tracks. What would the absolute maximum height be then? Is an extra 1' 6" (16' 2" - 14' 8") possible for a newly designed Superliner that could travel the entire system?

Of course this is just theoretical. Does anyone know if the loading gauge is different in the East River tunnels? What if the new Gateway tunnels are built this way? Just thinking about it.

 

[cocojacoby]

While I am fantasizing about such things, what if Amtrak switched yards with LIRR and all those deadhead moves to Sunnyside are eliminated. Does this make any sense for both agencies? If not a total swap maybe enough room to store Amtrak's LD equipment at West Side/Hudson Yards.

The new Gateway Tunnels and some platform tracks get the clearance revision above and the new Superliners never have to pass through the East River Tunnels to Sunnyside. Throw in the West Side Connection for the LSL and you have a very different landscape.

There of course are other things to consider (like other clearances such as the Baltimore Tunnel but that is being replaced) and the new Superliner design would need high/low doors, but it's fun to imagine the possibilities.

Thanks for the indulgence.

 

[jis]

While I am fantasizing about such things, what if Amtrak switched yards with LIRR and all those deadhead moves to Sunnyside are eliminated. Does this make any sense for both agencies? If not a total swap maybe enough room to store Amtrak's LD equipment at West Side/Hudson Yards.

No it makes no sense operationally. At present all LIRR trains and trains terminating at Penn station coming from the south and Empire Corridor can operate run through to their respective yards without having to reverse directions which is a huge operational efficiency advantage, that gets completely destroyed. It also massively increases conflict moves in A interlocking which is already the worst conflict point even without these additional yard moves that will result. In general a horrible idea.

 

[chrsjrcj]

I'm surprised there has been no discussion regarding Stadler making a bilevel Superliner replacement, with what they're doing for Caltrain. I wonder what the height (or I guess loading gauge?) of the Caltrain KISS coach trailer is vs a Superliner.

 

[Ziv]

I think most KISS are 4.595m (15’1”) though Sweden’s are 4.7m (15’5”)
The Superliners are 4.93m (16’2”) if memory serves. I wonder what a KISS sleeper would look and feel like with around 4” less height on each of the two levels. It would be nice to get a nearly “off the shelf” rail car but converting a KISS commuter rail car to a sleeper would be a big job. The inward curve of the upper level windows would be GREAT on the western routes! Keep those mountain tops in sight more often.

I'm surprised there has been no discussion regarding Stadler making a bilevel Superliner replacement, with what they're doing for Caltrain. I wonder what the height (or I guess loading gauge?) of the Caltrain KISS coach trailer is vs a Superliner.

 

[west point]

Was the former Pacific Parlor car about 4 shorter.? Remember always had to watch step when going from PP car to regular Superliner or would stumble.

 

[jiml]

Was the former Pacific Parlor car about 4 shorter.? Remember always had to watch step when going from PP car to regular Superliner or would stumble.

There was definitely a step involved when the ex-Santa Fe cars were mixed with Superliners. In this shot of the International in Michigan you can clearly see the roofline difference between the 3 Hi-level coaches and the Superliner bringing up the rear: