Crescent (and others?) getting shorter?

[Philzy]

I was just browsing through some photos of the Crescent on-line and checking out some videos and I started thinking about all my Crescent trips. Recently the past few times I’ve ridden the Crescent from between my home town of Charlottesville and Washington the train “it self” has seemed to be shorter to me than it used to be over the years. Have they been taking coaches or sleepers off it over the years?

Now, I remember when I was younger for a number of years the Crescent also split off at Birmingham as the Gulf Breeze; and during that time it seemed an incredibly long train. I can actually remember seeing the engine sitting over the Preston Street Bridge a number of times in Charlottesville as the platform there for the NS tracks was just barely long enough to fit the train in it’s entire length.

I assume that when I remember seeing 3 Sleepers on the train when I was younger one of those was for the gulf breeze? I distinctly remember there being two lounges a few times while riding when I younger so that obviously was when the Crescent and the GB were operating together. How many coaches did it operate in total with the GB and how many is it operating with currently?

Regardless, I’ve ridden it three times in the past year the last would have been summer last year(?). And in just the short time if of a year it seemed as though they pulled a coach or two off. Sadly, it reminded me of the redheaded stepchild known as the cardinal which every time I ride it seems to be given a consist of what’s left over or what’s available.

Any info about this would be great!

Philzy

 

[battalion51]

IIRC the train is currently turning in Atlanta a few days a week. With this change the trainsets may be shorter just because there are fewer people on the train itself. Also, don't forget that all of the trains lost their crew dorms a couple years back, so that's one car that they lost from the beginning of the decade til now.

 

[jphjaxfl]

I used to ride the Crescent quite a bit when I lived in the Atlanta area from 1996 to 2003. It was almost always a baggage car, crew dorm, 2 viewliners, heritage diner, amfleet lounge and 4 coaches. I traveled on the Southern Crescent quite a few times in the 70s when it was still operated by the Southern Railway and they had a lot more cars on the train then. Southern always seemed to have more than enough coaches on their passenger trains and would often roll out some antinques in peak periods. Before the heritage cars were scrapped except for the diners most all the trains had a lot more cars on them.

 

[had8ley]

I was just browsing through some photos of the Crescent on-line and checking out some videos and I started thinking about all my Crescent trips. Recently the past few times I’ve ridden the Crescent from between my home town of Charlottesville and Washington the train “it self” has seemed to be shorter to me than it used to be over the years. Have they been taking coaches or sleepers off it over the years?
Now, I remember when I was younger for a number of years the Crescent also split off at Birmingham as the Gulf Breeze; and during that time it seemed an incredibly long train. I can actually remember seeing the engine sitting over the Preston Street Bridge a number of times in Charlottesville as the platform there for the NS tracks was just barely long enough to fit the train in it’s entire length.

I assume that when I remember seeing 3 Sleepers on the train when I was younger one of those was for the gulf breeze? I distinctly remember there being two lounges a few times while riding when I younger so that obviously was when the Crescent and the GB were operating together. How many coaches did it operate in total with the GB and how many is it operating with currently?

Regardless, I’ve ridden it three times in the past year the last would have been summer last year(?). And in just the short time if of a year it seemed as though they pulled a coach or two off. Sadly, it reminded me of the redheaded stepchild known as the cardinal which every time I ride it seems to be given a consist of what’s left over or what’s available.

Any info about this would be great!

Philzy

Let me see if I can fill in some of the blanks. I do not remember the Gulf Breeze ever having a sleeper. That's not to say it never did but every time I watched the train being put together or broken apart it had one or two coaches and a lounge. With the lone engine for the GB you had an added four car length train coming into or departing Birmingham. For some of this time Amtrak put the diner on the hind end out of New Orleans and had a lonesome 10 and 6 sleeper ahead of the diner. The diner is the heaviest car in the train; therefore it wasn't unusual to experience run in, or slack action, at times. About the coaches you've seen; there are actually four on the train the entire NYP to NOL route and return; two are shut down on #19 leaving Atlanta and the same two aren't opened up on #20 until they arrive into Atlanta. I do remember there only being three coaches for a short time this past winter. Someone mentioned that it went into Silver Service for the snow birds. They used to cut these two cars off (and add them back to #20 that same evening) when Amtrak had the mail contract. At one time Amtrak ran a trans-continental sleeper from NYP to LAX with an overnight in NOL. I don't remember how long this lasted after the Southern turned the Crescent over to Amtrak in the late 70's. The Southern was generous at Atlanta; they added the Master Room buffet lounge sleeper, coaches and sometimes an extra sleeper at heavy times of the year. Maybe Bill could fill us in on some of the missing links.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

The Crescent has a long and complicated equipment history. For one thing, today's "Crescent" is really a lot more like the former Southerner. But I suspect you really do not want to hear about all that. If you do say so and I will be glad to oblige as well as I can. The history of train names is: Cresent Limited, Southerner, Crescent, Southern Crescent and finally, Crescent, again.

More to the present. For Hadley, yes, the Gulf Breeze did have a sleeper. I rode it a time or two.It had 2 coaches and lounge and a sleeper from NYP to Mobile. The sleeper did not last, correct.

Today's train is as described by iphjaxfl. Battallion is also correct abut those times when the train terminates in Atlanta, but that has stopped for now, it seems.

Those times when you saw the train with 3 sleepers could be when it was running just one sleeper from NYC to NOL, two from NYC just to AtLanta. There was a long period time when some coaches, sleepers and also a slumbercoach were removed in Atlanta southbound, as Hadley describes.

There have been so many things happen through the years. One, there is a long history of trans-con sleepers, sometimes from Washington to LA, sometimes from NYC and sometimes even from Boston to LA. There have been times when it operated just three days a week south of Altanta, and not only for trackwork. During those times it would always connect with the Sunset Limited.

There was a time it carried a dome parlor car from Atlanta to New Orleans. (to see hundreds of miles of kudzu). The only scenery happens after leaving Slidell southbound. But still it is "nice" equipment to have a dome. For those not familiar with preAmtrak days, having a dome was a sign of a train's "specialness"---domes were NOT strewn around like leaves from a tree.

There is an incredibly long history of much more business and population from NYC to ATL, then south there of. This has always been reflected in more trains just from NYC to ATL and also cars removed in Atlanta for trains which went further than ATL.

In fact, there was at one time quite a culture developed for this. At times when the train only had one sleeper from NOL to NYP, people would often ride coach from NOL to ATL and then transfer car to car to one of the sleepers or the slumbercoach in ATL. Happened every night. No big deal. In fact, there were probably some passngers who mistakenly thought there were no sleepers at all from NOL to ATL. Not true, but there was only one.That today both sleepers go all the way to NOL-that is the novelty.

Let me know if I can help any more specifically. If you happend to have the dates of any of your trips perhaps I could zero in a little better.

And yes, I have seen the train as much as 17 or 18 cars long esp back when it had been merged with the former Southerner and was known for a time as the Southern Crescent.

 

[had8ley]

Bill;

Back in the days when my brain wasn't fogged up I did keep notes. We pulled into NYP with 26 cars on the "Southern's" Crescent in 1975. They double headed GG-1's out of WAS and had to make double stops on the NEC. On that same trip returning we "only" had 24 cars and four engines leaving WAS for NOL. After all the switching in Atlanta we were down to "only" 18 cars.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Bill;Back in the days when my brain wasn't fogged up I did keep notes. We pulled into NYP with 26 cars on the "Southern's" Crescent in 1975. They double headed GG-1's out of WAS and had to make double stops on the NEC. On that same trip returning we "only" had 24 cars and four engines leaving WAS for NOL. After all the switching in Atlanta we were down to "only" 18 cars.

Yes, they had plenty of cars at the time that the Souithern R.R. sort of merged the then-Crescent and the then-Southerner into one train,the "Southern Crescent", they had plenty of equipment.So I guess they just kept adding cars per trip as reservations were made, which seems to be what VIA does these days with the Canadian.

Southern had had many trains but four of them were streamliners.

These were:

!.The Crescent, NY,WA,ATL,Montgomery,Mobile,NOL

2.The Southerner, NY, WA,ATL,Birmingham, Meridian,NOL

3.The Royal Palm (New RoyaL Palm in the winter) Detroit,other Great Lakes cities, Cincinnati, Lexington,Chattanooga, Atlanta, Macon, JK, MIA

4.Tennessean, NY,WAS, Lynchburg, Roanoke, Bristol, Knoxville, Chattanooga,Huntsville, Memphis

The Tennessean and the Royal Palm faded away pretty badly. But there was still enough equipment and need to sort of put all that was left onto one truly first class streamliner, to be named Southern Crescent at that time. With cars from the former Cresent and former Southerner as well aa from the long faded Tennessean and and Royal Palm.

For awhile the Southern also ran a seconday companion train,called the Piedmont, a remant of the former Piedmont Limited. Its few passenger carrying cars were lightweight also. It went from NY to ATL only, during the early 70's framework I have in mind. It had a day schedule betwen WAS and ATL. Carried a lot of piggy back, as I recall.

 

[wayman]

4.Tennessean, NY,WAS, Lynchburg, Roanoke, Bristol, Knoxville, Chattanooga,Huntsville, Memphis

Over in the "new train to Lynchburg" thread, Rafi mentioned that the immediate plan is in October to start extending a regional from WAS to LYH in October 2009, then by 2012 the goal is to extend to Roanoke, and then in the no-date-yet future there are hopes to extend to Bristol. I wonder if there's any chance, in the next five years or so, of getting Tennessee interested in its own state-sponsored Memphis-Huntsville-Chattanooga-Knoxville train, having them meet at Knoxville or Bristol, and, maybe someday, exist as a single through train, effectively bringing back the Tennesseean.

One can dream. But surprisingly, with this particular Amtrak dream, it looks like we'll actually get partway there (Roanoke, at least) in the very foreseeable future!

 

[had8ley]

Does anybody remember the years the Gulf Breeze ran from B'Ham to Mobile?

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

4.Tennessean, NY,WAS, Lynchburg, Roanoke, Bristol, Knoxville, Chattanooga,Huntsville, Memphis

Over in the "new train to Lynchburg" thread, Rafi mentioned that the immediate plan is in October to start extending a regional from WAS to LYH in October 2009, then by 2012 the goal is to extend to Roanoke, and then in the no-date-yet future there are hopes to extend to Bristol. I wonder if there's any chance, in the next five years or so, of getting Tennessee interested in its own state-sponsored Memphis-Huntsville-Chattanooga-Knoxville train, having them meet at Knoxville or Bristol, and, maybe someday, exist as a single through train, effectively bringing back the Tennesseean.

One can dream. But surprisingly, with this particular Amtrak dream, it looks like we'll actually get partway there (Roanoke, at least) in the very foreseeable future!

Yes, we can hope.

I had a special thing about the Tennessean. It did some complicated switching in Chattanooga, my hometown. I was not sure how the switching was done. Also it was partly streamlined, partly heavyweight which intrigued me.But there was a problem.

So what is the problem? The problem is that in one direction it passed through town about midnight. The other direction it arrived 3:35 a.m. departed 4 a.m. Now-------the problem was-------getting daddy to take me to see it at such godawful hours!!!!

The 3-4 am was out of the question. The midnight was a problem because at least in our experience it was usually late. We made several attempts to see it but it was always an hour or so late.

Finally one blessed night it was "only" 25 minutes late. Mother and daddy were in a very good mood for some reason (God knows what was in the water) so they almost suggested themselves that this would be a good night to see the mdnight train. It was one of my most pleasant childhood memories. And it was about the time of my birthday. All my equipment questions were answered.

Incidentally, it had a set out sleeper from Chattanooga to Memphis. That was my first set out sleeper to see and to learn that such a thing existed. Going to Memphis, the set out sleeper could be boarded in Chattanooga from 9.30 p.m.on until departure at midnight-ish. In the other direction it was removed at 3.35 a.m.and people could stay board up until 7.30 a.m.

Mother and daddy were adjusted to me seeing the northbound Georgian about 9 .m and the southbound Dixie Flagler at 10 p.m.And they were usually on time. The Tennessean was somewhat of a challenge compared to them.

It is a good thing I saw that switching etc when I did because thsoe parts of the operation were scaled back shortly thereafter. By the time I would ride the Tennessean to school in Knoxville or to Memphis to visit my sister, all those equipment goodies had vanished,and it was now just an extremely ordinary train, nothing intriguing about it. No longer even listed as a streamliner.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Does anybody remember the years the Gulf Breeze ran from B'Ham to Mobile?

1989 to 1995 per google

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Trains are getting shorter, for sure.

Would you believe that at one point, Amtrak had something like 130 Heritage 10-6 cars and more than 20 Slumbercoaches? Thats 150 sleepers to spread around. Now we have a third that number. We also used to have tons of Heritage coaches and long-distance Amfleet Is and Horizons. All we have single-level long-distance now are the Amfleet IIs- which aren't even proper long-distance cars.

We just don't have the fleet to run trains that long. Funny, in 1994 we had the fleet, but not the ridership. Now we have the ridership, but not the fleet.

 

[had8ley]

Trains are getting shorter, for sure.
Would you believe that at one point, Amtrak had something like 130 Heritage 10-6 cars and more than 20 Slumbercoaches? Thats 150 sleepers to spread around. Now we have a third that number. We also used to have tons of Heritage coaches and long-distance Amfleet Is and Horizons. All we have single-level long-distance now are the Amfleet IIs- which aren't even proper long-distance cars.

We just don't have the fleet to run trains that long. Funny, in 1994 we had the fleet, but not the ridership. Now we have the ridership, but not the fleet.

My math is a little different~ NO slumbercoaches and 50 Viewliners and that doesn't count the Superliner sleepers.

 

[Philzy]

Trains are getting shorter, for sure.
Would you believe that at one point, Amtrak had something like 130 Heritage 10-6 cars and more than 20 Slumbercoaches? Thats 150 sleepers to spread around. Now we have a third that number. We also used to have tons of Heritage coaches and long-distance Amfleet Is and Horizons. All we have single-level long-distance now are the Amfleet IIs- which aren't even proper long-distance cars.

We just don't have the fleet to run trains that long. Funny, in 1994 we had the fleet, but not the ridership. Now we have the ridership, but not the fleet.

<i>"We just don't have the fleet to run trains that long. Funny, in 1994 we had the fleet, but not the ridership. Now we have the ridership, but not the fleet.</i>

lol, thats what I was thinking that kind of make me want to write this thread. At least I'm not the only one thinking this... :lol:

The more and more I read though I realize that if Gobama really follows through I think that in 4 years Amtrak should be in much better shape. IMHO if we get lucky enough to ahve 8 years of Gobama then Amtrak will - while it still won't be sitting pretty just yet - will be much more useful and functional to a much larger group of people. I've got my fingeres and tose corssed.

 

[AlanB]

Trains are getting shorter, for sure.
Would you believe that at one point, Amtrak had something like 130 Heritage 10-6 cars and more than 20 Slumbercoaches? Thats 150 sleepers to spread around. Now we have a third that number. We also used to have tons of Heritage coaches and long-distance Amfleet Is and Horizons. All we have single-level long-distance now are the Amfleet IIs- which aren't even proper long-distance cars.

We just don't have the fleet to run trains that long. Funny, in 1994 we had the fleet, but not the ridership. Now we have the ridership, but not the fleet.

My math is a little different~ NO slumbercoaches and 50 Viewliners and that doesn't count the Superliner sleepers.

You're correct Jay, Amtrak currently has 157 active sleepers between the Viewliner fleet and the Superliners. After we get done with the wreck repairs that number will be a bit higher, and with 50 new Viewliners it will be much higher.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I was talking about single level sleepers. Amtrak had 130 Heritage (not inherrited- HEP converted and ran after the Superliner Is were delivered!) 10-6s and 24 Slumbercoach cars. When the Superliner IIs had just finished delivery, Amtrak still had 106 10-6s on the Roster, and 19 Slumbercoaches. So in 1994, Amtrak had 125 Superliner sleepers, 47 Transition sleepers, 106 10-6 sleepers, and 19 slumbercoach cars. A total of 172 Superliner sleepers and 125 single level sleepers, a total of 297 sleepers. We currently have 50 Viewliners, 102 Superliner regular sleepers, 5 deluxe sleepers and 40 trans-dorms. Thats 147 Superliners, 50 Viewliners, total sleeper count: 197. We are down 100 sleeping cars since 1994.

Edit: Last I heard, it was 25 new Viewliner sleepers, and Al Papp confirmed that number just tonight. When did it go to 50? I'm all for 50, but this is the first I heard of it.