Crescent to be re-routed out of BHM?

[had8ley]

I certainly agree! Advertisement is a must for promoting AMTRAK. Speaking of advertisement, at the risk of getting off topic, what about the possibility of AMTRAK leasing ad spaces on their cars (outside and inside) for about the same rate as a coach fare to offset some low ridership losses? I don't see it as being anymore objectionable than ads on TV. Maybe this might be a good separate topic.

I remember seeing the Legoland car in San Diego some time ago. It certainly was an impressionable ad on wheels. I wonder if Disney would want a car decorated like a Mickey or Goofy?

 

[sechs]

Atlanta's station is at the corner of its best known street, Peachtree Street

Err, which peachtree street?

 

[Guest]

You asked!

From Wikipedia:

"Peachtree Street is the main north-south street of Atlanta, Georgia. The city grew up around this one street, and many of its historical and municipal buildings are or were located along it. Beginning at Five Points in Downtown Atlanta, it runs north through Midtown and into south Buckhead before changing names to Peachtree Road and ultimately Peachtree Industrial Boulevard. In recent years the street's extension south from Five Points, formerly named Whitehall Street, was renamed Peachtree Street as well. The street is for Atlanta what Broadway is for New York City: the proverbial and legendary heart of the city. On March 26, 2007, Atlanta mayor Shirley Franklin unveiled a $1 billion, 20-year plan to transform Peachtree Street with streetscape upgrades, public parks, buried utilities and the addition of a streetcar, based on a sixteen-month study by her Peachtree Corridor Task Force.[1]"

 

[Irv]

Atlanta's station is at the corner of its best known street, Peachtree Street

Err, which peachtree street?

There's only one Peachtree Street.

Change Street to any one of several thousand other words, like Alley, Way, Drive, Lane... we've got all those.

Then tack a word onto the front: North, South, East, West, Little, Big, or any other adjective... we've got those, too.

You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a 'Peachtree" sign.

 

[Steve4031]

Well . . . as a football coach I am doing my part to promote Amtrak. Whenever one of our ball carriers runs over somebody, I holler "get off the tracks, Amtrak is coming". At our last game one of the sophomores remarked that somebody had been "Amtraked", so now its a verb, :lol:

 

[Guest]

Apparently, Amtrak DOES advertise.

From Amtrak Ink September 2007 Edition:

System-wide Campaign

This campaign includes television ad placement on theWeather

Channel in the top 21 markets and print advertising in the major daily

newspapers in select markets and in national and regional magazines,

such as Budget Travel, National Geographic Traveler,Midwest Living

and Sunset.

Out-of-home advertising is a major component of this campaign as

well, with advertising appearing nationally on CNN in various airports,

billboard placements in the Los Angeles, Chicago, Seattle, Denver and

Orlando airports and large billboard placements along the major highways

leading to these airports.Additionally, significant advertising is

placed on various Internet travel sites such as Orbitz,Travelocity,

Expedia and search engines such as Google,AOL and MSN.

“With the high cost of gasoline, increased traffic congestion and

erratic airline service,” said Director, National Advertising Darlene

Abubakar, “there has never been a better time to broadly promote the

benefits and advantages of train travel.”

The system-wide campaign continues to use the updated Michael

Schwab illustrations introduced in September 2003.Ads still promote

select city pairings and special tactical pricing offers will be featured as they become available.

 

[had8ley]

Apparently, Amtrak DOES advertise.
From Amtrak Ink September 2007 Edition:

System-wide Campaign

This campaign includes television ad placement on theWeather

Channel in the top 21 markets and print advertising in the major daily

newspapers in select markets and in national and regional magazines,

such as Budget Travel, National Geographic Traveler,Midwest Living

and Sunset.

Out-of-home advertising is a major component of this campaign as

well, with advertising appearing nationally on CNN in various airports,

billboard placements in the Los Angeles, Chicago, Seattle, Denver and

Orlando airports and large billboard placements along the major highways

leading to these airports.Additionally, significant advertising is

placed on various Internet travel sites such as Orbitz,Travelocity,

Expedia and search engines such as Google,AOL and MSN.

“With the high cost of gasoline, increased traffic congestion and

erratic airline service,” said Director, National Advertising Darlene

Abubakar, “there has never been a better time to broadly promote the

benefits and advantages of train travel.”

The system-wide campaign continues to use the updated Michael

Schwab illustrations introduced in September 2003.Ads still promote

select city pairings and special tactical pricing offers will be featured as they become available.

Good golly Miss Molly; I don't know if Donald Trump could afford all this advertising. The only ads I see are when the trains go by and I see Amtrak on the side of the engines and cars and I haven't been hibernating. I think somebody is trying to blow their horn with lots of compressed air.

 

[haolerider]

Apparently, Amtrak DOES advertise.
From Amtrak Ink September 2007 Edition:

System-wide Campaign

This campaign includes television ad placement on theWeather

Channel in the top 21 markets and print advertising in the major daily

newspapers in select markets and in national and regional magazines,

such as Budget Travel, National Geographic Traveler,Midwest Living

and Sunset.

Out-of-home advertising is a major component of this campaign as

well, with advertising appearing nationally on CNN in various airports,

billboard placements in the Los Angeles, Chicago, Seattle, Denver and

Orlando airports and large billboard placements along the major highways

leading to these airports.Additionally, significant advertising is

placed on various Internet travel sites such as Orbitz,Travelocity,

Expedia and search engines such as Google,AOL and MSN.

“With the high cost of gasoline, increased traffic congestion and

erratic airline service,” said Director, National Advertising Darlene

Abubakar, “there has never been a better time to broadly promote the

benefits and advantages of train travel.”

The system-wide campaign continues to use the updated Michael

Schwab illustrations introduced in September 2003.Ads still promote

select city pairings and special tactical pricing offers will be featured as they become available.

Good golly Miss Molly; I don't know if Donald Trump could afford all this advertising. The only ads I see are when the trains go by and I see Amtrak on the side of the engines and cars and I haven't been hibernating. I think somebody is trying to blow their horn with lots of compressed air.

I think you will find that Amtrak has always been advertising, just not in the market in which you live. This is such a common complaint -"I never see an Amtrak ad." They advertise in the top 20 markets across the country and don't have enough money to advertise in additional markets - as simple as that. I would give them some kudos for advertising in regional magazines and other travel related publications. Unless you really understand the cost of advertising in the print media - or television, it is hard to fully appreciate the job they do with very limited funds.

 

[wayman]

I think you will find that Amtrak has always been advertising, just not in the market in which you live. This is such a common complaint -"I never see an Amtrak ad." They advertise in the top 20 markets across the country and don't have enough money to advertise in additional markets - as simple as that. I would give them some kudos for advertising in regional magazines and other travel related publications. Unless you really understand the cost of advertising in the print media - or television, it is hard to fully appreciate the job they do with very limited funds.

Is Philadelphia not a top-20 market? I've been living here twelve years and I've yet to see an Amtrak ad... Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places, I don't know.

 

[Penn Central]

Well, in the Washington area they seem to run a half-page ad in the Washington Post every week or two. Interestingly, it's virtually always advertising the long-distance trains, rarely the NEC (The NEC doesn't need the publicity as much, I suppose).

 

[haolerider]

Well, in the Washington area they seem to run a half-page ad in the Washington Post every week or two. Interestingly, it's virtually always advertising the long-distance trains, rarely the NEC (The NEC doesn't need the publicity as much, I suppose).

Your are correct, sir! Why advertise the NEC trains when they are virtually full most of the time. The LD system is the one that needs the help and Washington is a great location for a large number of LD train connections.

 

[had8ley]

Well, in the Washington area they seem to run a half-page ad in the Washington Post every week or two. Interestingly, it's virtually always advertising the long-distance trains, rarely the NEC (The NEC doesn't need the publicity as much, I suppose).

Your are correct, sir! Why advertise the NEC trains when they are virtually full most of the time. The LD system is the one that needs the help and Washington is a great location for a large number of LD train connections.

Bingo! Is not New Orleans the originating and terminating point for three long distance trains? I might not be living in the right area for money to be spent but with a grand total of 40 passengers going north on the City a couple of weeks ago I don't know if the Hooters Girls could do any good in filling empty seats.

 

[AlanB]

Well, in the Washington area they seem to run a half-page ad in the Washington Post every week or two. Interestingly, it's virtually always advertising the long-distance trains, rarely the NEC (The NEC doesn't need the publicity as much, I suppose).

Your are correct, sir! Why advertise the NEC trains when they are virtually full most of the time. The LD system is the one that needs the help and Washington is a great location for a large number of LD train connections.

Well I'm up here in the NY market and see advertisements for Amtrak rather frequently. However they are advertising not only for the LD's, but also for the virtually full NEC trains too.

 

[AlanB]

Bingo! Is not New Orleans the originating and terminating point for three long distance trains? I might not be living in the right area for money to be spent but with a grand total of 40 passengers going north on the City a couple of weeks ago I don't know if the Hooters Girls could do any good in filling empty seats.

I'm not sure what the Capitol had in coach going out, but I can tell you that the LSL had a very decent load in coach coming back. The sleepers on the LSL looked close to being sold out, I'd guess at least 85% to 90% full, granted the crew took up some rooms too, but there were three sleepers. The Capitol I'd guess was running about 70% to 75% full in the sleepers.

 

[Guest]

A simple billboard (or shoot, a banner on the fence!) over the Atlanta station directed at the interstate traffic below saying something along the lines of, "Trains leaving here everyday for New Orleans, Birmingham, New York, Charlotte and D.C.", would do wonders for letting the metropolitan area know that (a)long distant trains are leaving from Atlanta and (b)where they go. It would probably reach more traveling people, based on location (intersection of 2 major interstates on the downtown route (which also end up at the airport) and also along Peachtree Street), than any other kind of advertising in the Atlanta area.

How are "top 20 markets" defined?

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

A lot of posts to read for someone coming back from vacation(the same vacation many others are coming back from, of course) , and whose computer is at work, but not home.

Somebody mentioned the Pelican.

That was a Southern Railroad train which ran Washington, Lyinchburg,Roanoke, Bristol, Knoxville,Chattanooga,Birmingham, Meridian , New Orleans with through pullmans from New York to variouis points. The Norfolk & Western ran it between Lynchburg and Bristol.

Its route from New York-WAS to Lynchburg and again from Birmingham to New Orleans was the same as today's Crescent, or the former Southernor. The former Crescent and Piedmont Limited went NY-ATL-Montgomery-Mobile, NOL.

But one thing of note: the Pelican had a through sleeper from Washington to Shreveport, which was taken off the Pelican at Meridiam, MS, in the middle of the night to an Illinois Central train to Shreveport.

So there has already been some sort of service in this general direction.

 

[meatpuff]

In Champaign and Urbana, IL, I have seen ads on the sides of city busses, especially campus routes, for Amtrak. Don't remember what they said, I haven't seen them in maybe a year. But this is the site of a large public university and 150 miles from Chicago, so it certainly makes sense to advertise (and the CHI-CHM corridor has plenty of ridership BTW). But this is no top 20 market!

 

[Guest_timetableflagman_*]

That's the same one, Bill, the Pelican route from Meridian through Jackson, Vicksburg and Shreveport on to Longview for a "modern-day" connection with the Texas Eagle. It could connect from and to the Crescent at Lynchburg following the East Tennessee route you mentioned. The connecting trains, of course, must be timely enough to make the connection.

For the other advertising responses: it would appear that for Amtrak to have anything to effectively advertise nationwide it has to provide a service that the national public can use for serious daily transportation. Are all Amtrak trains usable for commuting to and from work especially with regional and local ubiquitous bus or rail connections? Are not work commuters the main source of major traffic jams in the mornings and evenings? Is it affordable to run short, un-connected corridor commuter trains without either charging fares to the passengers or taxing people who don't even or can't even ride the trains to pay for them?

Why not have all Amtrak trains packed (or at least more greatly patronized) with local commuters and regional business travelers along with the leisure and personal passengers making up the balance? Business travelers between cities about 300-five-hundred miles apart in one direction could travel by daily train overnight if the trains regularly departed such major stations around 6-7pm after work hours and arrived about 6-8am before business hours, returning on an opposite schedule. Rivaling the need for a rushed yet arguably wasteful mere hour-long morning flight or long and wasteful drive, these overnight trains could be very attractive if a through sleeping car from each of two connecting lines were switched bound for points along each other line. Pittsburgh-Buffalo/Rochester sleeper passengers could be switched while asleep between the Lakeshore and Capitol Limiteds at Cleveland. The Dalles, Hood River and Tri-Cities-Ephrata/Wenatchee passengers in Washington could similarly be switched at Spokane as Trains 7 and 28 already switch other through cars there.

What would the railroads charge to power a rail passenger service company's cars on cross-country routes such as Amtrak's? Don't the railroads want money?

Perhaps doubling the average cost of an entire-line freight car movement for a loaded passenger car, what would be that amount? Can the railroads tell us if they would haul a five to nine-car train of passenger cars for about $10,000 a car over a present or similar Amtrak route? No, it may not be as lucrative as some freight trains but, I doubt that trains are always dispatched exactly by value in spite of possible goals to the contrary.

Add the cost of only: an onboard agent (business manager/customer service representative) doubling as an extra dinette attendant; a dinette attendant (how many attendants are often on dinettes?); a sleeping car porter doubling as a coach porter and; an actual coach porter (no, modern porters don't shine shoes and do deserve the courtesy so often cruelly denied their standard-setting Pullman predecessors who bore the title of "porter"--a very honorable title to retain rather than mere "coach attendant") all at union-level wage. Add insurance premiums (yes, potentially billion or more dollar policies!). Add car leasing (yes, suppose Amtrak gets out of its own car ownership and shop functions). There are car shops in existence (they can be researched) and with Amtrak or other rail passenger services coming on line as customers, why can't and why wouldn't they expand their capacity to accommodate such a big customer as Amtrak or other rail passenger services when shown that the business is coming? Can all this be done for about $20,000 per car?

Can four 85-foot coaches have two three-foot vestibules at both ends, six-foot lavatories at one end and 80 seats each instead of the current approximately 68-72 seats (...I know,,, "Cramfleet"!—“crammed” for fifty to one hundred miles or so? If the trip is longer, book a berth!)? Can four sleeping cars have about 42 berths in all-roomette compartments (except for the accessible compartment being larger) charging around 2 times coach fare for berth, quadruple for private compartment? How about bi-level 160-seat coaches and 78-berth sleepers? Divide the cost of the approximately nine cars for the single-level cars by the 640 possible passengers. Divide those fares by the number of stations along the route for local commuters. How about only having the cost of five of the double capacity bi-level cars divided by the 640 passengers? Sell advertisement spaces outside and inside the cars to make up empty seat losses. ...Too simple? How about passengers simply taking another form of transportation and taxpayers simply refusing to pay for something they can't use on a real everyday basis? Hasn’t this been the case for much of Amtrak’s precarious history and have the potential for getting worse as long as Amtrak remains, for some, a political poster child (seen positively or negatively) for socialism?

What percentage of the entire cost of operation does Amtrak's overhead (non-train operation) cost? Can the non-train or non-shop operating functions be performed onboard the trains? Could the managerial hierarchy be on the trains-- potentially more trains over more strategic cross-country routes-- serving as extra board porters? Didn't a certain Amtrak president actually clean toilets on a train while he was President of Amtrak? ...A "publicity stunt"? I've not seen any other Amtrak president cleaning toilets on a coach. I believe his quote, when asked why he was doing it was: to "feel useful". ...Useful indeed! Of course, the actual porters on the train scolded him for "taking their jobs". No jobs need be lost for Amtrak to become a better company if everyone wants to actually help run the trains onboard—Amtrak’s reason for being—and reduce its cost to being actually fundable by passenger and advertising revenues!

Having management serve as extra board onboard service crew is a matter for negotiation with the unions (and possibly a revelation of how many true railroaders are in Amtrak's management!). It could certainly eventually obliterate the difference and strife between "management' and "labor" (is that truly “socialistic?: obliterating class distinctions?). Amtrak employees do however need better working conditions (such as hours of service protection like the head-end crews enjoy instead of cross-country, two days or more work with unpredictable breaks, etc.) and industry-level pay and benefits. The union is important for these negotiations as long as there is a separate management.

Even if this didn't make Amtrak completely self-funding (certainly not lucrative in the sense of supporting unemployed wealthy investors, though stock options could be offered for employees of a privatized Amtrak-- replete with “poison pill” provisions to prevent “hostile takeovers” for the purpose of shutting Amtrak down-- making Amtrak an “employee owned” company), it could drastically reduce the subsidy needed-- making it easier to obtain the more paltry amount from reluctant politicians. Perhaps paying off Amtrak's current debt could be the only subsidy needed.

An Amtrak that is a real, reliable, serious option for daily business travel nationwide would be something to advertise indeed.

 

[had8ley]

Alan had mentioned some time ago that selling rooms in the transistion dorm is a great idea. How about they sell them at a cheaper price than the regular roomettes in the revenue car? Sorta like the slumber coaches of yesteryear. After witnessing the light sleeper load on #58 and learning that only 5 people used the transistion car (all crew members) it does not make sense to haul non- revenue bearing cars. The computer only sells rooms in this car once all the roomettes have been sold in the revenue car. You could knock off the free meals and sell some space that is only wearing out the equipment every time it rolls without any passengers on board.

 

[Guest_timetableflagman_*]

That's not a bad idea for maximizing revenue, had8ley! ...Makes me think of something similar maybe also from Alan?: allow shower priviledges for coach passengers for something like 1 1/2 times coach fare...sort of helping finance the sleeping car, especially when underbooked.

I've always wondered if the complementary meals are a big money-loser for the road. I know charging sleeper passengers for meals would be sour for many but, what if it helps keep the trains? I know that shipping otherwise checked baggage by parcel express (maybe on the trailer train?) is just as good for stuff I don't need on my train-- eliminating the need for a baggage car (more of that "less unnecessary car" concept). I don't think banking everything on tax subsidy is the wisest or most sustaining model for Amtrak in the long run.

We need the trains however we have them (within reason) but, trains are arguably extremely cheap compared to the highways and air even without subsidy. Eventually, highways and air may lose their prominence by sheer virtue of their cited lesser affordability than trains for the taxpayer or even fare and user fee-paying traveler. Yes, if required to survive totally on user fees and fares (as some would say they morally should especially if rail is expect to), the highways and air quite possibly would now be very inferior to rail though, we need to make rail as usable as possible if it is to really take their place. I think its a shame not to make the trains as frugal as they can be while not making them shabby. I see them as basic, good, reliable, survivable and convenient transportation. For luxury, check with the folks coupling cars onto the rear.

The re-routing idea for the Crescent together with a new Pelican and Royal Palm, all scheduled for commuting hours all along their routes with advertising onboard for supporting businesses (as well as Amtrak advertising itself frugally nationwide) and maximized capacity could be a step in that direction.

 

[Gerard]

I would keep the Crescent where it is, and add a new line from New Orleans via Mobile and Montgomery, through Birmingham to Nashville, then through Louisville, Cincinatti and Columbus to Cleveland.

 

[George Harris]

I would keep the Crescent where it is, and add a new line from New Orleans via Mobile and Montgomery, through Birmingham to Nashville, then through Louisville, Cincinatti and Columbus to Cleveland.

And we call it the Pan American

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I would keep the Crescent where it is, and add a new line from New Orleans via Mobile and Montgomery, through Birmingham to Nashville, then through Louisville, Cincinatti and Columbus to Cleveland.

And we call it the Pan American

Or the Humming Bird. Or......even....the Azalean!! George, this must bring back memories of your time in BHM.

 

[haolerider]

That's not a bad idea for maximizing revenue, had8ley! ...Makes me think of something similar maybe also from Alan?: allow shower priviledges for coach passengers for something like 1 1/2 times coach fare...sort of helping finance the sleeping car, especially when underbooked.
I've always wondered if the complementary meals are a big money-loser for the road. I know charging sleeper passengers for meals would be sour for many but, what if it helps keep the trains? I know that shipping otherwise checked baggage by parcel express (maybe on the trailer train?) is just as good for stuff I don't need on my train-- eliminating the need for a baggage car (more of that "less unnecessary car" concept). I don't think banking everything on tax subsidy is the wisest or most sustaining model for Amtrak in the long run.

We need the trains however we have them (within reason) but, trains are arguably extremely cheap compared to the highways and air even without subsidy. Eventually, highways and air may lose their prominence by sheer virtue of their cited lesser affordability than trains for the taxpayer or even fare and user fee-paying traveler. Yes, if required to survive totally on user fees and fares (as some would say they morally should especially if rail is expect to), the highways and air quite possibly would now be very inferior to rail though, we need to make rail as usable as possible if it is to really take their place. I think its a shame not to make the trains as frugal as they can be while not making them shabby. I see them as basic, good, reliable, survivable and convenient transportation. For luxury, check with the folks coupling cars onto the rear.

The re-routing idea for the Crescent together with a new Pelican and Royal Palm, all scheduled for commuting hours all along their routes with advertising onboard for supporting businesses (as well as Amtrak advertising itself frugally nationwide) and maximized capacity could be a step in that direction.

For clarification, what routes would you think would be good for commuting? Most major cities already have commuter trains operated by Amtrak or by the various states - VRE, MARC, METRA, etc. etc. I don't think Amtrak's long distance trains are in a positoni to offer commuter service, based on timing and reliability, plus why duplicate what is already offered?

 

[AmtrakWPK]

LOTS of reasons NOT to try to use an LD as a commuter. Poor OTP is a good start - very unreliable for the commuters in one or both directions. Next, it would require additional cars, which you would NOT want to be carrying on the train for the whole trip. Waste of fuel, slows down acceleration of the train, blocks more crossings, requires more staffing. So you would want to add the cars just prior to the commuter part of the trip and remove them at the other end, and then the reverse going the other direction. The train would also require double-spotting at any station that was both Amtrak and commuter. All the commuter stops would also delay the Amtrak LD train more. And even more time would be wasted switching those extra cars on and off at both ends. The more you think about this, the sillier the idea becomes.