Cruise Ships and Canada

[jiml]

The horror stories from early-on in the pandemic where whole ships were infected, not getting food or adequate cleaning and no ports to go to, do not bode well for the industry until Covid is well in the rear-view mirror. Also, if they follow the same model as hotels, slashing luxuries and housekeeping, how will they attract the large numbers needed to be recapture their markets? Imagine a lot of "no frills" cruises with no buffets, eating in one's room and no congregating in the sports areas/nightclubs/gyms/casino. Hardly the model for success.

 

[me_little_me]

I am of two minds about this. On the one hand, the cruise industry creates lots of collateral jobs. The Seattle Times had an article commenting on the Canadian action banning cruise ship visits till a year from now, pointing out that the value to the Seattle economy was over 900 million dollars a year--in hotels, restaurants, etc. --spent by cruisers while in Seattle. These are businesses that are hurting badly as it is, and the workers in those areas are on the front lines of the economic harm of COVID.

On the other hand, it's not like visitors to Seattle can't get there any other way. In addition to planes, they can travel much safer in trains. Then they can "Cruise American" like "Buy American"!

It will also help American small ship lines that can hire locals and pay American taxes.

 

[Dakota 400]

t is restricted to serve the Hawaiian market, and if it does leave that market, it gives up its right to be US flagged. NCL is not likely to give up its monopoly in that market,

The Wikipedia article that you posted stated "The American registry allows the ship to travel solely between U. S. ports." The article does not say that POA is restricted to the Hawaiian market. Not knowing other "legalese" that may exist concerning POA, why wouldn't cruises between Seattle and any/all of the Alaskan ports with no calls at a Canadian port be possible?

I agree with your thinking that NCL would likely be unwilling to give up its monopoly in the Hawaiian market. (Their prices on a per day basis for a 7 day cruise have been exceedingly high in my experience.) Late Spring/Summer/early Fall in Alaska and then a return to Hawaii for the rest of the year is what I envision. And, they could probably charge the same high fares for an Alaska season if "they are the only game in town". At least, for 2021 if the CDC does allow cruising to begin that would allow an Alaskan cruise season.

 

[railiner]

The Wikipedia article that you posted stated "The American registry allows the ship to travel solely between U. S. ports." The article does not say that POA is restricted to the Hawaiian market. Not knowing other "legalese" that may exist concerning POA, why wouldn't cruises between Seattle and any/all of the Alaskan ports with no calls at a Canadian port be possible?

You're correct...the wiki article only states that the ship was granted a special exemption, to be US registered, but it doesn't elaborate beyond that point. I did hear that it was only for the Hawaiian market, and that it would lose that exemption, if it redeployed. I will go back to the source of that, and attempt to find the missing facts, and report back...

 

[Night Ranger]

At the height of the norovirus outbreaks, I heard cruise ships described as "floating Petri dishes." That's an accurate description in my opinion and not just for norovirus. I lament the loss of those collateral jobs too but locally, people won't even mask up for the local yearly boat show. I'm sure they wouldn't on a cruise either.

Can the industry recover? I hope so for the sake of those collateral jobs but right now is just not the time to climb into a seagoing Petri dish where neither mask wearing nor social distancing will be practiced.

 

[railiner]

Still haven't found the actual document, but did come across this comment from an NCL spokesperson, in a trade publication...

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/...-america-won-t-be-redeployed-from-hawaii.html
I am still seeking the actual document...

 

[PVD]

Political Savvy Gets U.S. Flags On Foreign Ship - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
Good luck finding one, it is an insert into the annual congressional spending authorization in 2003

 

[railiner]

Thanks for the tip..I did find it..
It is buried in Public Law 108-7, Division B, Title II, Section 211. If you pull up the PDF document, it is on pages 69 and 70.

 

[hlcteacher]

i look forward to taking the train to miami, seattle or tampa to cruise again...i will not have a problem with being served at the buffet (an upgrade imho) or wearing a mask unless in my cabin--starting to look for masks to match my cruisewear...

 

[Dakota 400]

Thanks for the tip..I did find it..
It is buried in Public Law 108-7, Division B, Title II, Section 211. If you pull up the PDF document, it is on pages 69 and 70.

Cruise Industry News is a reliable source of industry information. And, finding the restriction in Law, there goes my idea/suggestion.

 

[jiml]

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/cana...r-BB1dwM1C?ocid=MF11KM&li=AAggNb9&OCID=MF11KM
"The extension effectively kills the Seattle-Alaska cruise season for foreign-flagged ships, Cruise Industry News says , as it does for ships under foreign flag in other cruise areas such as the Great Lakes, the St. Lawrence and Canada/New England."

 

[Exvalley]

People are oversimplifying the issue of foreign labor on cruise ships.

On the surface, the wages that the foreign workers are paid seem almost criminal. But the reality is that, for many of these workers, the wages they are paid on a cruise ship are vastly greater than any opportunity they have where they live. One of the lowest paying jobs, room steward, pays between $650 and $1,200 per month. Compare that to the $100 per month that a typical garment worker in Bangladesh makes and you can see why these are amazing opportunities for some people.

But why not just pay them more? My concern is that people from more prosperous places would then take those jobs - and the people from the very poorest countries, who need economic opportunity the most, would find themselves out of a job - or at least having to compete much harder to get a job.

As I said... it's complicated.

 

[Bob Dylan]

People are oversimplifying the issue of foreign labor on cruise ships.

On the surface, the wages that the foreign workers are paid seem almost criminal. But the reality is that, for many of these workers, the wages they are paid on a cruise ship are vastly greater than any opportunity they have where they live. One of the lowest paying jobs, room steward, pays between $650 and $1,200 per month. Compare that to the $100 per month that a typical garment worker in Bangladesh makes and you can see why these are amazing opportunities for some people.

But why not just pay them more? My concern is that people from more prosperous places would then take those jobs - and the people from the very poorest countries, who need economic opportunity the most, would find themselves out of a job - or at least having to compete much harder to get a job.

As I said... it's complicated.

This is the same reasoning that caused Racists, Bigots, Opponents of raising the Minimum Wageand other supporters of Slavery and mistreated Immigrants,( and sadly there are still supporters of this trope) to say that the Slaves and Immigrants were so much better off over here than they would be back where they came from.

 

[Exvalley]

This is the same reasoning that caused Racists and Bigots, and other supporters of Slavery and mistreated Immigrants( and sadly there are still supporters of this trope) to say that the Slaves and Immigrants were so much better off over here than they would be back where they came from.

Easy there...

You will notice that I did not comment on working conditions, etc. All I said is that the issue is complicated - which it absolutely is. If you want to have a meaningful discussion, then I am all ears. But inflammatory words alone don't anything of substance to the conversation.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Easy there...

You will notice that I did not comment on working conditions, etc. All I said is that the issue is complicated - which it absolutely is. If you want to have a meaningful discussion, then I am all ears. But inflammatory hyperbole isn't adding anything to the conversation.

I understand your point, please understand mine, no offense meant towards you.

The same principle and arguement was followed by the Pullman Company , and the Robber Barons that built the Railroads, which were some of the most Anti- worker Companies in this Country.


Explotation of Essential Workers and those that do the " Dirty Jobs" is one of the Corner Stones of Capitalism.The Pandemic is once again showing the truth of this.

Cue Bob Dylan singing " Sundown on the Union".

 

[Exvalley]

Explotation of Essential Workers and those that do the " Dirty Jobs" is one of the Corner Stones of Capitalism.

Cue Bob Dylan singing " Sundown on the Union".

And having the opportunity to work your way out of poverty is also a cornerstone of capitalism. I have seen many articles about families who could afford to put their children into private schools thanks to cruise ship jobs. That may seem impossible to us on cruise ship wages, but in the Philippines it is absolutely possible.

Just look at the crushing impact the shutdown of the cruise industry has had on the poorest people who live on this planet:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/develo...onavirus-pandemic-lockdown-reopen-11593969595
If we waved a magic wand and paid everyone on a cruise ship $80,000 per year and limited their hours to 40 hours per week - do you honestly think that cruise ships would hire as many people from the most impoverished nations? And if they didn't, do you honestly think that all that money would continue to flow from the pockets of middle class and rich people to some of the poorest people on the planet?

I don't know what the right answer is. I just know that it's easy to armchair quarterback when you come from a place of privilege.

 

[Bob Dylan]

And having the opportunity to work your way out of poverty is also a cornerstone of capitalism.

Just look at the crushing impact the shutdown of the cruise industry has had on the poorest people who live on this planet:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/develo...onavirus-pandemic-lockdown-reopen-11593969595

Last comment on this subject, paying someone $2 an hour is inhumane no matter what the justification!( in Texas this is what Waitstaff are paid since they depend on tips for a " Liveable wage"!)

"Jefeism", akaThe White Mans Burden or Manifest Destiny, needs to belong to the ash heap of History!

 

[Exvalley]

Last comment on this subject, paying someone $2 an hour is inhumane no matter what the justification!( in Texas this is what Waitstaff are paid since they depend on tips for a " Liveable wage"!)

"Jefeism", akaThe White Mans Burden or Manifest Destiny, needs to belong to the ash heap of History!

You don't seem to understand how countries are able to lift their people out of poverty. What do you think would happen if Bangladesh, the Philippines, or Vietnam all of the sudden set the minimum wage at $15 per hour? I can assure you that millions of people would quickly find themselves out of a job - or at best working under the table for no more money in unregulated conditions.

Again... if you told Carnival that they had to pay cabin stewards $80,000 per year and limited their hours to 40 per week, do you really think that they would hire as many of the poorest people on the planet?

This article explains the dilemma well: Should developing countries increase their minimum wages? Guest post by Andrés Ham

And, no, waiters in Texas are not making $2 an hour. They are making $2 an hour plus tips. If they were only making $2 per hour they wouldn't work as a waiter since they could earn many times that by taking just a minimum wage job.

For the record, I am all for better working conditions and increased employee rights. I just am cognizant that sometimes what we think (from our place of privilege) is the best solution can actually do more harm than good.

 

[PVD]

Let us skip for a moment the worker issue, and look at the issue of avoidance of US taxes by offshoring most assets and profits. If you are in business making money off of us, pay your fare share.

 

[Exvalley]

Let us skip for a moment the worker issue, and look at the issue of avoidance of US taxes by offshoring most assets and profits.

This is why I do not support a taxpayer funded bailout.

 

[Dakota 400]

This is why I do not support a taxpayer funded bailout.

And, that is what didn't happen when Carnival Corporation Chairman Micky Arison contacted his friend, the 45th President of the United States when financial assistance began to be considered by the Federal Government due to the pandemic. (According to the reports that I have read.)

 

[Devil's Advocate]

One of the lowest paying jobs, room steward, pays between $650 and $1,200 per month. Compare that to the $100 per month that a typical garment worker in Bangladesh makes and you can see why these are amazing opportunities for some people. [...] I have seen many articles about families who could afford to put their children into private schools thanks to cruise ship jobs. That may seem impossible to us on cruise ship wages, but in the Philippines it is absolutely possible.

Why should we be responsible for employing Bangladeshi and Filipino citizens at the expense of other Americans? Around 25 million Americans still have no healthcare and up to 40% cannot put their hands on $400. I'm willing to support a global minimum wage, to provide targeted financial assistance where it can do the most good, and to accept qualified immigrants in a manner similar to the Canadian system - but I have little interest in handing tens-of-thousands of North American jobs to foreigners just because they're willing to take them from us.

And having the opportunity to work your way out of poverty is also a cornerstone of capitalism.

If capitalism is the key why are the top entries in the economic mobility chart populated with socialistic countries?

 

[Exvalley]

Why should we be responsible for employing Bangladeshi and Filipino citizens at the expense of fellow Americans?

(1) Because we should think globally and want to see the poorest people on this planet lifted out of abject poverty; and (2) Because cruise ships operate internationally and will never be subject to exclusively American laws - not at least without recourse that would be worse than the remedy; and (3) Because you are engaging in the logical fallacy of believing that, if labor costs go up substantially, that cruise prices will not be meaningfully impacted, that demand will remain the same, and countless people won't be out of work anyway.

As I said... it's complicated.

If capitalism is the key why are the top entries in the economic mobility chart populated with socialistic countries?

You have made the mistake of thinking that the Nordic countries are socialist. They are all open economies that cherish free trade. Don't confuse socialism, meaning government exerting control or ownership of businesses, and the welfare state in the form of government-provided social safety net programs.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffre...-countries-are-not-socialist/?sh=73ca3f6874ad
Now if you want to talk about enhancing the social safety net in the United States... I am completely on board with that.

 

[Dakota 400]

As I said... it's complicated.

Indeed, is is a complicated issue. US Labor Laws play a role in the issue. And, that then gets politics entangled in the issue.

It is a fact to which I will testify as a result of many conversations with cruise ship staff members from Asian countries, particularly. They work on the ships for whatever the cruise line pays, for whatever duration their contract requires, for a variety of reasons. Number 1 is almost always to be a better provider for their family than they could be if they sought employment in their home country. Number 2 has consistently been their desire to earn sufficient funds to open a business in their home country. The small basic salaries that these good people earn are augmented by "some fringe benefits" that most cruise guests are unaware (and probably don't care).

Gratuities that the crew receive are significant to them. Those gratuities are on top of their basic salary. I always plan on offering additional tips above what my shipboard account is charged for those crew that have earned it. When one takes the per day gratuity charge and break it down into how much each of the main staff members that serve one: it's a shockingly low amount/person, in my opinion.

It hurts my soul when I learn of or witness a fellow guest not offering an end of a cruise gratuity to a Steward/Stewardess that has worked their heart out to serve them. And, that situation has become more commonplace than not. Last night of a cruise, I usually delay my departure from the dining room just to be a "people watcher". My most recent observations: more and more people leave their table without a word or an envelope, etc. to their Stewards. There also seems to be more guests than usual who choose not to dine in the MDR that last night.

Maybe my thinking is influenced that, like rail travel in the 1950's and 1960's, I came to learn what was a proper practice when I began to cruise in 1970 and the years that followed.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Because we should think globally and want to see the poorest people on this planet lifted out of poverty?

I listed several ways I was willing to work toward that goal without handing American jobs to foreign workers.

1. Global minimum wage
2. Targeted financial assistance
3. Accepting more qualified immigrants

Forfeiting American jobs to employ more foreigners is an unsustainable solution that merely robs Peter to pay Paul.

Because cruise ships operate internationally and will never be subject to exclusively American laws - not at least without recourse that would be worse than the remedy

The US is the largest cruise market in the world and they need us more than we need them.

Because you are engaging in the logical fallacy of believing that, if labor costs go up substantially, that cruise prices will not be meaningfully impacted, that demand will remain the same, and countless people won't be out of work anyway.

I never made any claim of this sort, and would frankly be fine with raising prices, but I'm also willing to reduce some of the bureaucracy and tax burden in exchange for a larger minimum percentage of American workers.

You have made the mistake of thinking that the Nordic countries are socialist. They are all open economies that cherish free trade. Their economies are fully open and trade globally. Don't confuse socialism, meaning government exerting control or ownership of businesses, and the welfare state in the form of government-provided social safety net programs.

I never said they had a closed market or that capitalism played no role in their economy. I said they were socialistic because they employ a mix of ideologies rather than relying on blind faith in capitalism alone.