Crying Shame the Sunset Doesn't Run East of NOL

[had8ley]

Me thinks it is cheaper to put Friday's # 2 crew up in a French Quarter hotel, feed and pay them for THREE days than to run one train to stations that need ADA compliance (not hype about "we ain't got no stations")mountains of overtime and deadheads when crews are at a minimum and the bean counters shaking in their boots when they hear that the $400 figure might escalate to over $500 loss per pax if service ever started again. AMEN !

I don't see any problem with overtime, deadheading, ADA or any other such problems. The trains run on time now and the route east of NOL is a separate division with separate crews, the CSX made the route available years ago and the stations are the same ones that were there in 2005. When the train ran on to Florida it laid over about three hours in NOL for servicing and restocking and new crews. It would actually be a more efficient operation and the equipment would be earning revenue rather than just sitting and the west end crews would be turned quicker and get back to LAX sooner. Amtrak decided to start the transcon service as a way to use the idle equipment that was sitting in NOL prior to 1993 and it worked well until the UP meltdown and subsequently Katrina.

My point exactly~ if you were CEO of Amtrak would you chance another possible host RR meltdown or even worse~ 46 pax killed in the middle of the night? Amtrak's worse disaster in 40 years; and there are mutiple lift bridges and stationary bridges that the train runs over at night, many times in the fog. We'll never see a Sunset east until oil tops $5 a gallon. Even with record ridership and sold out trains I don't see any flurry at 60 Massachusetts Avenue to supplement LD trains when the equipment is available. One more thing I would do to up crew efficiency and moral~ start a crew base at San Antonio. :help:

 

[henryj]

My point exactly~ if you were CEO of Amtrak would you chance another possible host RR meltdown or even worse~ 46 pax killed in the middle of the night? Amtrak's worse disaster in 40 years; and there are mutiple lift bridges and stationary bridges that the train runs over at night, many times in the fog. We'll never see a Sunset east until oil tops $5 a gallon. Even with record ridership and sold out trains I don't see any flurry at 60 Massachusetts Avenue to supplement LD trains when the equipment is available. One more thing I would do to up crew efficiency and moral~ start a crew base at San Antonio. :help:

Hadley aren't you talking about just any route Amtrak runs???????????? Aren't there risks with any operation? How about the big crash on the NEC at Gunpow in 1987? What I see here is the usual discrimination towards anything in Texas, the South or the Southwest from the eastern sohpisticates and know-it-alls. I agree with another writer on here that we should move 60 Mass Ave to maybe Kansas City or better yet Houston and let them put up with one train three times a week.

Now we see the Fed and the states putting billions of dollars in a corridor from Chi to St Louis which has a pop of only 319k or around 2.5 for the whole metro area. Here in Texas we have Houston(5million), DFW(6million) the I35 corridor(15million) and little to no rail service. Texas has the fastest growing corridors in the nation while St Louis is a declining midwest backwater that will never recover to what it once was. Recently Ohio prudently declined to spend billions on restoring rail service between Clevland(pop 500k) and Cincinatti(pop 300k) both of which have declining populations. Like who would use it? Ohio is a depressed area like much of the northeast and midwest. Amtrak should be spending money and putting trains where the population is and is growing such as Texas, Florida and the west coast. Amtrak is run as if it lives in the 1950's. These old rail hubs like St Louis are gone forever and will never come back.

 

[AlanB]

Now we see the Fed and the states putting billions of dollars in a corridor from Chi to St Louis which has a pop of only 319k or around 2.5 for the whole metro area. Here in Texas we have Houston(5million), DFW(6million) the I35 corridor(15million) and little to no rail service. Texas has the fastest growing corridors in the nation while St Louis is a declining midwest backwater that will never recover to what it once was.

Henry, while I agree with you that it's a shame that little is being done in Texas where it could benefit so many more, the key or pivotal point in your statement is "states". Illinios had both a plan in place for improvements and it was willing to put up some of its own money for the improvements.

Texas had neither.

So it got nothing.

Recently Ohio prudently declined to spend billions on restoring rail service between Clevland(pop 500k) and Cincinatti(pop 300k) both of which have declining populations. Like who would use it? Ohio is a depressed area like much of the northeast and midwest. Amtrak should be spending money and putting trains where the population is and is growing such as Texas, Florida and the west coast. Amtrak is run as if it lives in the 1950's. These old rail hubs like St Louis are gone forever and will never come back.

As for Ohio, I'm sorry but there was nothing prudent in Ohio's decision. It was purely political.

 

[had8ley]

My point exactly~ if you were CEO of Amtrak would you chance another possible host RR meltdown or even worse~ 46 pax killed in the middle of the night? Amtrak's worse disaster in 40 years; and there are mutiple lift bridges and stationary bridges that the train runs over at night, many times in the fog. We'll never see a Sunset east until oil tops $5 a gallon. Even with record ridership and sold out trains I don't see any flurry at 60 Massachusetts Avenue to supplement LD trains when the equipment is available. One more thing I would do to up crew efficiency and moral~ start a crew base at San Antonio. :help:

Hadley aren't you talking about just any route Amtrak runs???????????? Aren't there risks with any operation? How about the big crash on the NEC at Gunpow in 1987? What I see here is the usual discrimination towards anything in Texas, the South or the Southwest from the eastern sohpisticates and know-it-alls. I agree with another writer on here that we should move 60 Mass Ave to maybe Kansas City or better yet Houston and let them put up with one train three times a week.

No, not really...I was asked to hire out and bid on a one man extra board in Pensacola that was established to cover Pensacola to Jax and NOL. One of the three people in the cab was the guy who took the job and was breaking in(even though I love the beach I stayed put in NOL). The suits have no idea of the operational difficulties that are confronted by crews on each and every trip. We had a lady GM in NOL for five years. Gunn was prez and he told her to ride the Crescent to Washington. She got a transfer in D.C. but on the way back she commented as the train rolled across Lake Pontchatrain, "If I had known the sunset was this beautiful on this train I would have ridden a long time ago." How many suits do you think even care ??? Better yet put their desks inside the Houston station or on the rocks in Beaumont :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Bob Dylan]

Maybe business would pick up @ the J&J Tavern Jay! These guys drink expensive stuff, so we could increase our profits! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[leemell]

This "Thread" is like a dead hose, but still...

A dead hose . . .

Interesting.

I'll bet it is better than a live hose.

 

[had8ley]

Maybe business would pick up @ the J&J Tavern Jay! These guys drink expensive stuff, so we could increase our profits! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Then maybe we could open our own RR...at least there would some transparency BEFORE 5 o'clock... :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[eagle628]

Now we see the Fed and the states putting billions of dollars in a corridor from Chi to St Louis which has a pop of only 319k or around 2.5 for the whole metro area. Here in Texas we have Houston(5million), DFW(6million) the I35 corridor(15million) and little to no rail service. Texas has the fastest growing corridors in the nation while St Louis is a declining midwest backwater that will never recover to what it once was. Recently Ohio prudently declined to spend billions on restoring rail service between Clevland(pop 500k) and Cincinatti(pop 300k) both of which have declining populations. Like who would use it? Ohio is a depressed area like much of the northeast and midwest. Amtrak should be spending money and putting trains where the population is and is growing such as Texas, Florida and the west coast. Amtrak is run as if it lives in the 1950's. These old rail hubs like St Louis are gone forever and will never come back.

So you mean that we should suddenly redirect money from the Lincoln service or the Wolverine track upgrades on the grounds that they serve economically depressed blue-collar regions and send it to Texas, never mind the fact that Illinois and Michigan both have a) expanding ridership, b) state governments supportive of rail transport and c) specific and reasonable plans to improve and expand service and Texas has none of those, with the possible exception of number one?

 

[colobok]

I think extending CONO to Florida would be much better idea. Midwest to Florida is a great market.

If they could extend CONO at least to Pensacola that would be super. Vacationers from Midwest could reach Florida Panhandle in less than 1 day.

Why don't they provide at least a bus connection from New Orleans to Pensacola?

 

[henryj]

Now we see the Fed and the states putting billions of dollars in a corridor from Chi to St Louis which has a pop of only 319k or around 2.5 for the whole metro area. Here in Texas we have Houston(5million), DFW(6million) the I35 corridor(15million) and little to no rail service. Texas has the fastest growing corridors in the nation while St Louis is a declining midwest backwater that will never recover to what it once was. Recently Ohio prudently declined to spend billions on restoring rail service between Clevland(pop 500k) and Cincinatti(pop 300k) both of which have declining populations. Like who would use it? Ohio is a depressed area like much of the northeast and midwest. Amtrak should be spending money and putting trains where the population is and is growing such as Texas, Florida and the west coast. Amtrak is run as if it lives in the 1950's. These old rail hubs like St Louis are gone forever and will never come back.

So you mean that we should suddenly redirect money from the Lincoln service or the Wolverine track upgrades on the grounds that they serve economically depressed blue-collar regions and send it to Texas, never mind the fact that Illinois and Michigan both have a) expanding ridership, b) state governments supportive of rail transport and c) specific and reasonable plans to improve and expand service and Texas has none of those, with the possible exception of number one?

Sounds ok to me.

 

[SunsetLimited01]

I think extending CONO to Florida would be much better idea. Midwest to Florida is a great market.

If they could extend CONO at least to Pensacola that would be super. Vacationers from Midwest could reach Florida Panhandle in less than 1 day.

Why don't they provide at least a bus connection from New Orleans to Pensacola?

Pensacola wouldn't be an ideal station to service the train for the next day. I don't know about Jacksonville though that could work or Orlando.

 

[George Harris]

I think extending CONO to Florida would be much better idea. Midwest to Florida is a great market.

If they could extend CONO at least to Pensacola that would be super. Vacationers from Midwest could reach Florida Panhandle in less than 1 day.

Why don't they provide at least a bus connection from New Orleans to Pensacola?

Much as I would like to see a resurrection of the old "Florida Fast Three" that is the City of Miami, South Wind, and Dixie Flagler wiwth their 24 hour schedule between Chicago and Jacksonville, it simply is not going to happen. Why? The City of Miami route is no longer even there in several segments, and the other two routes would require megamillions to manage the same schedules they ran in 1955. I mention this because ALL other midwest to Florida routes are slower.

If we extend the City of New Orleans east along the Gulf, let us take about 19 hours from Chicago to New Orleans, add 4 to Mobile, 2.5 to Pensacola, 4 to Tallahassee, and another 4 to Jacksonville, we have over 33 hours between Chicago and Jacksonville. And, New Orleans to Jacksonville by rail is probably at least 4 hours slower than a relaxed driving time.

 

[colobok]

If we extend the City of New Orleans east along the Gulf, let us take about 19 hours from Chicago to New Orleans, add 4 to Mobile, 2.5 to Pensacola, 4 to Tallahassee, and another 4 to Jacksonville, we have over 33 hours between Chicago and Jacksonville.

So what is the problem? They could run it tri-weekly if they don't have enough equipment.

And, New Orleans to Jacksonville by rail is probably at least 4 hours slower than a relaxed driving time.

"relaxed" driving time??? about 9 hours or so? Can you drive that distance without breaks???

I would definetely prefer to sleep 13 hours in a sleeping car rather than spending the whole day for driving on highway.

 

[henryj]

If we extend the City of New Orleans east along the Gulf, let us take about 19 hours from Chicago to New Orleans, add 4 to Mobile, 2.5 to Pensacola, 4 to Tallahassee, and another 4 to Jacksonville, we have over 33 hours between Chicago and Jacksonville.

So what is the problem? They could run it tri-weekly if they don't have enough equipment.

And, New Orleans to Jacksonville by rail is probably at least 4 hours slower than a relaxed driving time.

"relaxed" driving time??? about 9 hours or so? Can you drive that distance without breaks???

I would definetely prefer to sleep 13 hours in a sleeping car rather than spending the whole day for driving on highway.

The train has always taken around 17 hours to go from New Orleans to Jacksonville. The rail route is not direct and makes a big hook around Mobile. Driving time is around 8 hours via I10. The problem today is that Jacksonville isn't the destination of choice, Orlando is. Driving time NOL to Orlando is around 10 hours because you can take the cutoff. Rail still has to go through Jacksonville which adds three more hours to the trip or 20 hours NOL to Orlando. I have driven from Houston, Tx to Orlando in one day or about 14 hours. That is with stops for food and fuel. It's not that hard as it's interestate highway all the way and you by pass NOL on I12. You can fly Southwest in a couple of hours.

Having said that, the Sunset east was still a well patronized train until the UP meltdown. People taking the train from points west of NOL didn't worry much about the time. NOL on the other hand has really ceased to be the hub it once was due to the declining population there and it's vulnerability to hurricanes. Baton Rouge is growing while New Orleans is shrinking which brings up another point.

Demographics in this country are changing drastically from the classic passenger train era. However, Amtrak seems to be stuck in the 1950's as are a lot of rail fans. A lot of the former important rail hubs are now just declining backwaters. Hubs have moved to where the action is and where the airlines took them and where the people are moving too. Florida is a good example. Where Jacksonville was a major hub for rail, now Orlando is the destination of choice receiving something like 50 million visitors a year. Talk about reviving the old FEC route down the coast misses Orlando. So you have a little problem there. Things like that are the fact all over the northeast and midwest. So you have Amtrak, the states and the Fed trying to revive old routes at the expenditure of billions of dollars when the people have moved somewhere else, like to Florida, Texas, other Southern states and the west coast.

 

[SunsetLimited01]

Random question what was the UP meltdown?

 

[jis]

Talk about reviving the old FEC route down the coast misses Orlando. So you have a little problem there. Things like that are the fact all over the northeast and midwest. So you have Amtrak, the states and the Fed trying to revive old routes at the expenditure of billions of dollars when the people have moved somewhere else, like to Florida, Texas, other Southern states and the west coast.

Actually you have a problem there only if anyone is talking about reducing service to Orlando, which of course no one is. A significant proportion of people that go to Orlando do so from far away places on big silver birds. What Florida lacks is service for local people to make local trips, and that is where a better Orlando Miami Corridor and the FEC plays a part. It is a completely different demographic that it would serve than people trying to get to Orlando from Texas. They should rightfully fly or drive as you have pointed out. That is why it stands to reason that the State make a significant contribution to the FEC proposal, and there appears to be some political will to do so.

Orlando is important but in the broader scheme of thing in Florida, Orlando ain't the equivalent of New York in the Northeast.

 

[had8ley]

Talk about reviving the old FEC route down the coast misses Orlando. So you have a little problem there. Things like that are the fact all over the northeast and midwest. So you have Amtrak, the states and the Fed trying to revive old routes at the expenditure of billions of dollars when the people have moved somewhere else, like to Florida, Texas, other Southern states and the west coast.

Actually you have a problem there only if anyone is talking about reducing service to Orlando, which of course no one is. A significant proportion of people that go to Orlando do so from far away places on big silver birds. What Florida lacks is service for local people to make local trips, and that is where a better Orlando Miami Corridor and the FEC plays a part. It is a completely different demographic that it would serve than people trying to get to Orlando from Texas. They should rightfully fly or drive as you have pointed out. That is why it stands to reason that the State make a significant contribution to the FEC proposal, and there appears to be some political will to do so.

Orlando is important but in the broader scheme of thing in Florida, Orlando ain't the equivalent of New York in the Northeast.

Jis...if you take the population of New York and divide it by the number of visitors per year and then take Orlando's population and divide it by those coming to see the Mouse, Space Center,and all the other theme parks, I think you'll be skunked. The NEC is not the only piece of RR Amtrak operates !!!

 

[henryj]

Random question what was the UP meltdown?

It was the rail gridlock that resulted from the 1996 merger of the UP and the SP. Here is a quote: For thousands of U.S. companies that ship by rail, the transportation meltdown caused by the 1996 merger of Union Pacific (UP) and Southern Pacific (SP) railroads is all too fresh. Shipments that were supposed to take five days to reach their destinations often took as many as 30 -- if they didn't get lost altogether. Overburdened computer systems lost track of freight cars. Bottlenecks arose throughout the West -- particularly in Houston, where freight snarls lasted for a year and a half.

The bottlenecks resulted in the Sunset Limited running hours late every day. Sometimes not reaching it's destination before it was to turn and head back. I rode this train sometime during this period and it was a rail fans dream. Trains on every siding. Coming across Arizona and New Mexico we would take siding behind a freight and another freight would then pull in behind us. Then five or six westbounds would fly past. Finally we would pull out behind the freight in front of us and trundle down the line at 30-40mph until they found a siding to put that freight into. Then we would take off like a scalded dog for 20 or 30 miles and repeat the whole thing again. After El Paso the train pretty much ran normal, but by then we were over 6 hours late....which it turns out was a good day by comparison. At that time the train was due into New Orleans around 8:30pm with a two hour layover before continuing on to Florida but would often arrive at 2 and 3 in the morning and would hit Orlando the next morning something like 9 or 10 hours late. Amtrak finally just asked the UP to give it a schedule they could keep resulting in the schedule you see now as they have never changed it back to what it was. The UP however could not keep that schedule either. It was a disaster for Amtrak and a real black eye for the UP. Nowdays the Sunset has one of the best on time records.

Before the merger the SP ran rock trains to houston for highway and other construction projects. They ran on a regular schedule. After the merger I heard one manager talking about sending out scouts to try and find where his rock train was on the system as the UP couldn't tell him anything and it had not shown up for days. Just an example of the chaos that resulted from the merger.

 

[had8ley]

The UP rented 200 and 300 series engines from Amtrak trying to break up the log jam. The UP promised to only use them in high speed inter-modal service. We showed up for work one day and the night local had stolen our engines because his ran out of fuel. So...the dispatcher told the next southbound train to set out his two rear units. We switched with a 200 and a 300 for almost three months and went down an old sugar cane branch three times a week at 5 mph. So much for promises. The A/C was great as the MOP nor UP didn't believe in A/C in GP 38's.

 

[SunsetLimited01]

Random question what was the UP meltdown?

It was the rail gridlock that resulted from the 1996 merger of the UP and the SP. Here is a quote: For thousands of U.S. companies that ship by rail, the transportation meltdown caused by the 1996 merger of Union Pacific (UP) and Southern Pacific (SP) railroads is all too fresh. Shipments that were supposed to take five days to reach their destinations often took as many as 30 -- if they didn't get lost altogether. Overburdened computer systems lost track of freight cars. Bottlenecks arose throughout the West -- particularly in Houston, where freight snarls lasted for a year and a half.

The bottlenecks resulted in the Sunset Limited running hours late every day. Sometimes not reaching it's destination before it was to turn and head back. I rode this train sometime during this period and it was a rail fans dream. Trains on every siding. Coming across Arizona and New Mexico we would take siding behind a freight and another freight would then pull in behind us. Then five or six westbounds would fly past. Finally we would pull out behind the freight in front of us and trundle down the line at 30-40mph until they found a siding to put that freight into. Then we would take off like a scalded dog for 20 or 30 miles and repeat the whole thing again. After El Paso the train pretty much ran normal, but by then we were over 6 hours late....which it turns out was a good day by comparison. At that time the train was due into New Orleans around 8:30pm with a two hour layover before continuing on to Florida but would often arrive at 2 and 3 in the morning and would hit Orlando the next morning something like 9 or 10 hours late. Amtrak finally just asked the UP to give it a schedule they could keep resulting in the schedule you see now as they have never changed it back to what it was. The UP however could not keep that schedule either. It was a disaster for Amtrak and a real black eye for the UP. Nowdays the Sunset has one of the best on time records.

Before the merger the SP ran rock trains to houston for highway and other construction projects. They ran on a regular schedule. After the merger I heard one manager talking about sending out scouts to try and find where his rock train was on the system as the UP couldn't tell him anything and it had not shown up for days. Just an example of the chaos that resulted from the merger.

So that's what happened. And the UP wasn't able to keep the schedule Amtrak requested? Wow that's some serious stuff. That is probably why one time in Orlando I saw the Sunset Limited was to arrive at 12:15 AM, fifteen minutes past midnight.

 

[AlanB]

Random question what was the UP meltdown?

It was the rail gridlock that resulted from the 1996 merger of the UP and the SP. Here is a quote: For thousands of U.S. companies that ship by rail, the transportation meltdown caused by the 1996 merger of Union Pacific (UP) and Southern Pacific (SP) railroads is all too fresh. Shipments that were supposed to take five days to reach their destinations often took as many as 30 -- if they didn't get lost altogether. Overburdened computer systems lost track of freight cars. Bottlenecks arose throughout the West -- particularly in Houston, where freight snarls lasted for a year and a half.

The bottlenecks resulted in the Sunset Limited running hours late every day. Sometimes not reaching it's destination before it was to turn and head back. I rode this train sometime during this period and it was a rail fans dream. Trains on every siding. Coming across Arizona and New Mexico we would take siding behind a freight and another freight would then pull in behind us. Then five or six westbounds would fly past. Finally we would pull out behind the freight in front of us and trundle down the line at 30-40mph until they found a siding to put that freight into. Then we would take off like a scalded dog for 20 or 30 miles and repeat the whole thing again. After El Paso the train pretty much ran normal, but by then we were over 6 hours late....which it turns out was a good day by comparison. At that time the train was due into New Orleans around 8:30pm with a two hour layover before continuing on to Florida but would often arrive at 2 and 3 in the morning and would hit Orlando the next morning something like 9 or 10 hours late. Amtrak finally just asked the UP to give it a schedule they could keep resulting in the schedule you see now as they have never changed it back to what it was. The UP however could not keep that schedule either. It was a disaster for Amtrak and a real black eye for the UP. Nowdays the Sunset has one of the best on time records.

Before the merger the SP ran rock trains to houston for highway and other construction projects. They ran on a regular schedule. After the merger I heard one manager talking about sending out scouts to try and find where his rock train was on the system as the UP couldn't tell him anything and it had not shown up for days. Just an example of the chaos that resulted from the merger.

So that's what happened. And the UP wasn't able to keep the schedule Amtrak requested? Wow that's some serious stuff. That is probably why one time in Orlando I saw the Sunset Limited was to arrive at 12:15 AM, fifteen minutes past midnight.

In 2001 IIRC, Amtrak added 10 and 1/2 hours of padding to the Sunset, 8 on the UP side the rest on the CSX side. Despite 8 extra hours to get that train over the road, the Sunset was still sometimes showing up 2 days late into LA or New Orleans.

That gives you an idea of just how bad things were. And mind you it wasn't just UP putting down Amtrak, as noted in the earlier post, they were delivering freight days late. In fact they took a hotshot contract with UPS where they guaranteed shipments from the west coast to the east coast. They ran the service for maybe a week and quickly realized that they couldn't do it. For several months they paid UPS to just fly the packages instead of putting them on the rails, until they could get out of the contract.

Things are pretty bad when you start paying the company that hired you to move packages to instead fly the packages rather than giving them to you.

 

[the_traveler]

That's why going westbound from Florida to LAX, the SL once arrived LAX something like 36 HOURS late! (Over 1 1/2 DAYS late!)

That's also the reason so much padding was added to the SL schedule. At one time, it departed LAX at 10:30 PM - allowing for a connection from the CS southbound. Now with the padding added, it departs LAX at 2:3- PM. Thus there is no way to connect from the CS unless you stay overnight on LA.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

From the sounds of it the UP + SP merger should never have been approved to begin with.

 

[had8ley]

From the sounds of it the UP + SP merger should never have been approved to begin with.

Correctumundo....but the SP was flat broke and the UP saw a golden opportunity to snake their way in!

 

[AlanB]

From the sounds of it the UP + SP merger should never have been approved to begin with.

In hindsight many, many people were definately questioning that approval.

Mind you NS had similar problems after the partial obsorbtion of Conrail. It wasn't quite as bad as UP, but it wasn't pretty either.