CUS: Security, Privacy, and You

[PVD]

Points about terrorism: They can try a hundred times and succeed once, defending, you have to bat a thousand. A lone wolf can almost never be stopped. When you hear of something being prevented, you usually hear the word "plot" associated with it implying more than one involved party, the more involved, the easier to discover.People of a culture that embraces life will always struggle with "suicide attacks" since we usually try to defend with a plan that says we can kill an attacker. When the attacker has no qualms about dying for their cause that makes our way of thinking somewhat ineffective.

 

[neroden]

Terrorism is a tactic -- attempt to terrorize the enemy with flashy attacks until they're rattled and start behaving stupidly. The American Revolutionaries used some terrorist tactics (and the British complained about it repeatedly). They won. The slavers of the Confederacy used lots of terrorist tactics. They eventually lost. The US used terrorist tactics in Vietnam. The US lost.

Suicide attacks are another tactic. They're not necessarily terrorist, actually, since their goal is to demonstrate their side's commitment to a cause, which does not necessarily involve trying to scare the enemy. Think of Mohamed Bouazizi.

Most people react with instinctive reactions rather than thinking practically about such things, which is exactly what terrorists want -- and it's also what totalitarians want.

Bin Laden specifically claimed that the US was lying about its freedom and that it was really a totalitarian, abusive government, and he wanted to push the US government to "rip the mask off" and appear openly abusive to the eyes of the rest of the world. Bin Laden essentially succeeded at this goal, thanks to G W Bush's totalitarian police-state reaction after 9/11 (the invasions and Guantanamo and the torture and the spying and so on), and unfortunately Obama kept doing some of that stuff.

I am really glad that more of the US is starting to respect our own principles again -- principles which make us strong -- rather than being led around by the nose following bin Laden's master plan, which the US arguably did for most of the last 15 years.

 

[PVD]

For governments, it is also a red herring used to get people to freely give up the rights and freedoms that are precisely what separates "us" from "them"

 

[andersone]

You are not free if you have to worry about someone knocking on your door. Fear makes us do stupid things. Mother always contended you cannot defeat an enemy willing to kill themselves, which appears to be part of the larger discussion.

If there is cause I have no issue but when you make up the cause you have no right. Sadly too often law enforcement makes up the cause.

 

[PVD]

This is a great exchange from the movie "Ben Hur" that speaks to the subject.

Ben-Hur Ideas.mp4

 

[HenryK]

This opinion piece from the NY Times Sunday speaks eloquently to the issue:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/27/opinion/sunday/je-suis-sick-of-this.html?hpw&rref=sunday-review&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

 

[slither]

IMHO If you have nothing to hide, then a search would be welcome for everyones safety. If you cooperate it would only be a very short delay, unless something seems suspicious. In this day and age it's always nice to see some security around. Lots of crazies around.

 

[jis]

While we are all focused on Brussels, there have actually been 8 or so significant terrorist attacks across the world in the last one month or so, some considerably more gruesome than Brussels.

Of course if we completely give up on our cherished principles of privacy because we are scared sh*tless, then the terrorist have kinda, sorta won. Is that what we want? How would that make us any different than say, the Soviet Union of yore?

 

[JoeBas]

This opinion piece from the NY Times Sunday speaks eloquently to the issue:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/27/opinion/sunday/je-suis-sick-of-this.html?hpw&rref=sunday-review&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

Scaredy pants. When the fricking FRENCH are braver than you are that really says something.

 

[JoeBas]

IMHO If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear.

Said every totalitarian government ever.

 

[CelticWhisper]

IMHO If you have nothing to hide, then a search would be welcome for everyones safety. If you cooperate it would only be a very short delay, unless something seems suspicious. In this day and age it's always nice to see some security around. Lots of crazies around.

Please tell us what school your children attend and where they will be between the hours of 4:00 and 6:00 PM on, say, Wednesday the 6th? Also, what do you and your significant others get up to in the bedroom? You won't mind leaving the curtains open for that in the future, right?

Finally, please provide your bank account number(s), routing number(s) and SSN here.

You, slither, are quite likely doing nothing wrong and not breaking any laws. That said, you also quite likely balked at the idea of acquiescing to any of my requests. The fact is that people who are doing nothing wrong still have plenty to hide, and what matters is that if someone is doing nothing wrong, then the authorities have nothing to find. The contents of my baggage, coat pockets, backpack, etc. are private. These things are my personal property and, despite the fact that nothing in them violates any laws (and I will absolutely be transporting my anxiety meds in an orange bottle with Rx info printed on), I still do not consent to searches because the right to freedom from search and seizure is a core liberty in our society. Nobody has any business asking to pry into my personal, private property uninvited.

Also, who determines if something "seems suspicious"? What if I disagree with them? At what point do I walk away? The 4A says they have to get a warrant, but TSA (and, I've heard, APD/DEA/Reno PD) use time and schedules as a bludgeon - they can threaten to make you miss a flight (train) if you don't forfeit your rights. It's a gross power imbalance that, while APD seems more reluctant to use it, other agencies are more than happy to use and abuse. It's a blatant, shameless attempt at an end-run around the 4A, using practical concerns to disrespect the spirit of the constitution.

And if they want to use terrorism and safety as excuses, if DHS and whoever else want to frame it as "searches are the only way to keep you safe" then I will spell it out in lowest-common-denominator terms for them: I DO NOT WANT TO BE SAFE. I want to be safe FROM THEM. I want to be protected (or, more to the point of the spirit of this mentality, to protect myself) AGAINST THEM. I will keep my liberty and take my chances and, as I have said in discussions of these matters as pertains to air travel, if I die in a terrorist attack because passengers were not searched then at least I die free. And that, to me, is worth something.

Thanks to JoeBas and jis for getting it.

 

[JoeBas]

Let's not go there... yet.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

For me, I don't mind the searches as much as the questioning. If Amtrak PD shows up and just says "Hello my name is _______, I'm with the Amtrak Police Department and you have been randomly selected for a luggage search. We will perform the search quickly and with care to your personal items, please show us your luggage and open all zippers to expedite the process" - honestly... I wouldn't mind that THAT much.

What I DO mind is being questioned as if traveling in my own country is "suspicious." "Where do you live? Why are you traveling? What is your occupation? Why did you choose to take the train" - These are the questions I was asked before the search. What does any of that have to do with anything?

 

[Bob Dylan]

IMHO If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear.

Said every totalitarian government ever.

This!!

 

[Eric S]

IMHO If you have nothing to hide, then a search would be welcome for everyones safety. If you cooperate it would only be a very short delay, unless something seems suspicious. In this day and age it's always nice to see some security around. Lots of crazies around.

This day and age?

That would be the day and age when violent crime rates in the US are at the lowest levels in decades (nationally, certainly we can find certain locations where that's not the case, although even then they are often lower than 20-25 years ago), would it not?

And also the day and age where terrorist attacks in Western Europe occur less frequently and kill fewer people than decades ago as well, would it not?

 

[chakk]

Back to the original question from the OP, police in CUS often walk the halls with dogs on leashes to sniff one's luggage and personage for drugs and/or bomb materials. I mostly ignored the doggie when the handler had one approach me in the Great Hall while I was taking photos, just taking care not to trip over him/her.

 

[sechs]

For me, I don't mind the searches as much as the questioning. If Amtrak PD shows up and just says "Hello my name is _______, I'm with the Amtrak Police Department and you have been randomly selected for a luggage search. We will perform the search quickly and with care to your personal items, please show us your luggage and open all zippers to expedite the process" - honestly... I wouldn't mind that THAT much.

What I DO mind is being questioned as if traveling in my own country is "suspicious." "Where do you live? Why are you traveling? What is your occupation? Why did you choose to take the train" - These are the questions I was asked before the search. What does any of that have to do with anything?

The style of questioning is meant to illicit a response from someone who is doing something malicious, not to be courteous. If the police could tell who the malcontents were just by looking at them, that would be profiling -- which in some places is entirely illegal.

Do you have to like it? No. Does it make you safer? More likely than not.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

While I don't dispute that Israeli level questioning has a history of success, it is also true that highly trained fine grained response analysis is not how it works here in the US. Not to mention that Israeli style security would be extremely expensive and unwieldy in a country as large and interconnected and as Constitutionally protected as ours.

Luckily there are alternatives to shredding our founding documents and abandoning our goal of protecting hard fought freedoms against lazy tyranny. For instance, we could have learned our lesson from backing the Shah of Iran and worked toward greatly reducing our support for foreign dictators and our dependence upon the foreign oil which they control. Every mentally competent American realized that an economy dependent on foreign oil came with severe trade offs back in the 1970's, but since then we have largely ignored and forgotten those lessons to our continuing detriment.

Moving away from oil dependence would have also removed much of the tactical advantage of stationing troops in and around foreign countries in an effort to prop up ruthless dictatorships. Which in turn would have then allowed us to bring those troops home and helped remove one of the most widespread and effective recruiting tools against us. Why on earth should a democracy be in the business of protecting monarchies and dictators? Because we're too lazy to move away from an economy beholden to the whims of oil cartels? If we're no longer willing to stand up for freedom and justice then what exactly do we stand for anymore?

 

[JoeBas]

For me, I don't mind the searches as much as the questioning. If Amtrak PD shows up and just says "Hello my name is _______, I'm with the Amtrak Police Department and you have been randomly selected for a luggage search. We will perform the search quickly and with care to your personal items, please show us your luggage and open all zippers to expedite the process" - honestly... I wouldn't mind that THAT much.

What I DO mind is being questioned as if traveling in my own country is "suspicious." "Where do you live? Why are you traveling? What is your occupation? Why did you choose to take the train" - These are the questions I was asked before the search. What does any of that have to do with anything?

The style of questioning is meant to illicit a response from someone who is doing something malicious, not to be courteous. If the police could tell who the malcontents were just by looking at them, that would be profiling -- which in some places is entirely illegal.
Do you have to like it? No. Does it make you safer? More likely than not.

Safer than what??? Just how much safe do you need any way???

 

[Asher]

If you don't wish to be searched for whatever reason, state your disapproval, refuse and move on to whatever comes along with that line of thought. No need to ask where or when it may happen.

 

[JoeBas]

If you don't wish to be searched for whatever reason, state your disapproval, refuse and move on to whatever comes along with that line of thought. No need to ask where or when it may happen.

And if you don't have a problem with people cheating you, meekly acquiesce, ask them for another, and move on to whatever comes along for the country with that line of thought. No need to stand up for your own damned rights.

 

[neroden]

Moving away from oil dependence

Many of us are working on this *quite a lot*. The government is way behind. Thank goodness the markets are actually helpful right now -- running an electric automobile off of solar power is cheaper than running a gasmobile off of gasoline even at $20/bbl oil. Purchase price parity for electric autos will be reached for the top half of the US auto market in about two years. Potentially bad news for train travel, but great news for getting off of oil. (Also great news for my investment portfolio because I called it, sold oil stocks, and bought Tesla stock at the right time.)
Sadly I don't expect the government to stop engaging in idiotic foreign invasions to "secure the oil supply" just because oil is unimportant now. The military-industrial complex is too much of a "self-licking ice-cream cone" and will run invasions for the purpose of paying military contractors.

Unless we elect Bernie; I figure he'll probably cut that nonsense out.

 

[CelticWhisper]

Sitting in the Metro Lounge right now. From my local Metra station all the way here was uneventful, so I'm breathing a huge sigh of relief. The Cap doesn't leave until 6:40 so I'm going to pop back into the station for some grub in 20 minutes or so and to see what else I can see.

One thing I noticed was that the RAIL-SAFE propaganda video had a clip of former APD chief O'Connor giving some kind of statement, ostensibly his support. Depressing to consider, since he was pretty staunchly anti-TSA when he was in office. I couldn't hear exactly what he was saying, though, so I'm not sure that he was "all-in" on supporting smurf-clerks.

 

[neroden]

For me, I don't mind the searches as much as the questioning. If Amtrak PD shows up and just says "Hello my name is _______, I'm with the Amtrak Police Department and you have been randomly selected for a luggage search. We will perform the search quickly and with care to your personal items, please show us your luggage and open all zippers to expedite the process" - honestly... I wouldn't mind that THAT much.

At London airports, the luggage inspectors are incredibly professional, polite, impersonal, and it's quite clear there's no profiling. If your bag is randomly selected (and it really is random, and nearly 1 in 3 are searched) they take everything out and put it back exactly in the container where it was, utterly politely. Even if it's a box of *** toys.
This does not happen in the US. There's a fundamental lack of professionalism in the luggage inspections.

What I DO mind is being questioned as if traveling in my own country is "suspicious." "Where do you live? Why are you traveling? What is your occupation? Why did you choose to take the train" - These are the questions I was asked before the search. What does any of that have to do with anything?

For most PDs (Amtrak PD might be better) the questioning is used as an excuse for ethnic bigotry -- they proceed to harass people who have trouble speaking English, or who have Spanish accents. This is quite well documented, sadly.

 

[Asher]

If you don't wish to be searched for whatever reason, state your disapproval, refuse and move on to whatever comes along with that line of thought. No need to ask where or when it may happen.

And if you don't have a problem with people cheating you, meekly acquiesce, ask them for another, and move on to whatever comes along for the country with that line of thought. No need to stand up for your own damned rights.

Hey,I'm just saying the man has to do what he has to do to take care of his own issues. It had. nothing to do with my "damned rights" which I take seriously.