Cuts to Trails & Rails

[NorthShore]

I guess I was particularly fortunate in having above average guides on most trips which I rode that offered the program. It got to a point where I would actually book on a specific train which had R&T just so I could have the enhanced experience, which I considered to be value added to the enjoyment of seeing the country and passing the time of train travel.

 

[me_little_me]

Texas Eagle used to have podcasts you could download from Amtrak's site that I thought were interesting - I'd have liked to see the concept expanded. The portion from CHI-SAS had better than 75 audio files, the SAS-LAX had almost 60 - most no longer than 3 minutes. They covered a lot of the kinds of topics the guides do, at least like the couple of times I managed to catch a T&R program.

Great idea! Those in rooms can listen (quietly) or on headsets. Those in coach can listen on headsets on their cell phones. They can be turned off whenever you want. They can include different types of info - scenery, stations, branch lines, history, etc and you could choose. They can be vetted for accuracy and be rated. Amtrak should show related ones prominently on their on-train web page.

Never mind! They'll never come up with the idea.

 

[rtabern]

"Only Amtrak would take a volunteer thing that basically costs them nothing and want to cut it."Well, it did cost Amtrak. They paid for the hotel rooms (hard money) and the onboard meals (soft money).

Well, GaSteve... I said a program that basically costs Amtrak nothing... and that is pretty much the truth. We are talking pennies or less per passenger.

I cant speak for the other programs but I did help manage the finances for our program on the Empire Builder, 2007 to 2010.

Our docents stayed at the Days Inn Midway and had a contracted rate of 29 dollars a night. NPS covered the costs of one room and Amtrak covered the other.

So Amtrak paid 29 dollars hard money towards each program. Our average reach was about 750 passngers roundtrip. So if my math is right here... that comes out to an added cost of between three and four pennies hard money for Amtrak to pay out per passenger for a program.

Break that down further. Our programs ran 6 hours... so now youre talking a program cost Amtrak less than half of one penny per hour.

If we were still a Trails and Rails docent and Amtrak was telling me my volunteer time wasnt even worth half a penny per passenger per hour... Id tell him where they could be bending over and stuffing their train.

And, Amtrak and unfortunately the man who heads Trails and Rails... is just very close minded to any new or creative ideas that could have saved the program too which is the real sad point.

The APRHF Rail Rangers... our group name after we broke off from Trails and Rails... did onboard educational programs on the Hoosier State in the dome car under Iowa Pacific in 2016 and 2017. Ed Ellis and INDOT liked our propsal but said they had no money to help fund us. We came up with a unique proposal where two hotels in Indiana would cover the rooms for our guides stays and in turn got ads on the handouts and maps we gave to pasengers and got one mention as our partner on the trainwide PA. The whole thing worked flawlessly. Amtrak took back over the Hoosier on March 1 of this year and refused to allow the ads on handouts to continue nor the hotel mention and the program between Lafayette IN and Chicago died ... we continue our programs on private rail excursions and the South Shore Line. But it shows how closed minded Amtrak is. There are many hotels who I am sure would have signed on to a deal to save Trails and Rails. Why was this not even attempted?

 

[TiBike]

we continue our programs on private rail excursions and the South Shore Line. But it shows how closed minded Amtrak is. There are many hotels who I am sure would have signed on to a deal to save Trails and Rails. Why was this not even attempted?

I think you answered your own question in an earlier post:

We had an awesome Trails & Rails docent heading south (Jeff), but holy cow... going north it got so bad that I almost wanted to leave the dome car. And if you know me, it's gotta be bad for me to want to leave Ocean View!!! They literally talked NON-STOP about the Revolutionary War for 71 minutes. I am not kidding. I love trains and history, but don't need to know every troop position at Ft. Ticonderoga either.

Amtrak has been doing passenger surveys – I've received a couple myself. Maybe they've come to the conclusion that more people report their docent experiences more negatively than positively. Times have changed. Passengers are not starved for entertainment these days. More people are more interested in creating their own private space.

Forcing people to choose between listening to something they would rather not hear and leaving the lounge car is bad business.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Thats kind of a key point. It is very hard for somebody who is a historian to understand just how boring history is to people who arent interested. I happen to be a history buff, but I have the same problem with sports fans; they never understand just how boring watching a bunch of paid professional supermen whack a ball around is to me.

I avoid sports bars, no matter how good the food is. I hate the cheering, the commentary, the pointless sound effects. I especially hate the spitting out of a monologue in the form of a faked dialogue. It doesnt matter what it costs the bar to run those ($100 a month maybe?) it loses them my business.

Perhaps to many riders, this was not only not a positive, it might be a strong negative!

 

[jebr]

I'd be honestly surprised if any of the hotels used for this are charging $29 or less per night for this. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if part of the contract on the Days Inn Midway was that the price went up. Even if it wasn't then, I'd be shocked if they offered that now; the hotel has become convenient enough that they can command a decently high rate pretty regularly. My guess is that most endpoints had $50-$100 hotel room rates, which adds up fast for a program.

Another major problem with building hotel relationships as a "we'll give you a couple free rooms if you advertise for us" is that most hotels on LD train routes don't see the value add of advertising to train passengers. A regional train has pretty much exclusively local passengers, so even if their trip doesn't need a hotel, it's easy to see how a passenger on that train, no matter their destination, may find themselves staying at that hotel down the road. When most of the passengers pass through instead, the value Amtrak can give is much smaller. There's also the simple logistics of trying to find hotels in each city that's willing to play ball, find a new hotel when a partner hotel wants to drop out, reprinting materials, etc. Most programs likely don't have an advocate strong enough to be able to make those deals happen, so a paid employee has to spend time doing that. A national hotel brand to partner with might work, but you'd have to find one that's willing to play ball and also has hotel space to offer at the necessary layover points.

Given that there's also likely passengers that don't appreciate it or find it a negative, coupled with the fact that there's numerous other sources of entertainment, it makes it a hard sell. NPS could make it so that there's a podcast or interactive app that gives multimedia details along the route, perhaps even stored locally on Amtrak's wifi network so that data connectivity isn't a concern. Of course, that would involve thinking outside the box a bit, which isn't easy for many organizations to do.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I would guess it would depend on the hotel. If we are talking a unique hotel, say the Whitcomb in Frisco or La Pavillion in New Orleans, advertising might do something. But often when I set out on the road, I shop for a hotel that meets one of a list of national brands I know I will get a good nights sleep, and then go for the lowest price. Days Inn is not on that list- it is far too inconsistent. Advertising is rarely worth it for chain hotels- because they aren't chains. They are franchises, and they are paying for the basic advertising of being in that brand.

Smaller hotels have a limited market. While I am on vacation, I like staying in oddball, but not high end, older properties. I also know that a lot of people would never set foot in such a hotel. They are never cheaper than Motel 6 or Super 8, and with those, you know what you get. It isn't much, but you can sleep.

The fact of the matter is, I have no idea what the price of this program to Amtrak is. I don't remember of T&R people get sleepers. Meals, I hear they get here. If you are talking about a summer Zephyr, it probably costs well north of $500, including sleeper, hotels, meals, and so forth a run. Thinking outside the box, frankly, is often a dangerous thing for a large organization to do.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Only Amtrak would take a volunteer thing that basically costs them nothing and want to cut it. It's kinda like what they did with National Train Day here in Chicago. All of the people working the event were volunteers (including Amtrak employees who came in on their day off to be there but not get paid!!)... it couldn't have cost Amtrak much if anything to put on because they were using Union Station ----- which they own... yet they were clearly making money because they sold yard tours for $10/pp, merchandise, t-shirts, wooden whistles, etc... but somehow National Train Day needed to be cut because it "cost too much to put on".

I've said it before and I'll say it again. National train Day wasn't free. I'll just quote myself" From an outsider, I can appreciate national train day. From an insider, I can appreciate why it had to go. It was extremely expensive (remember, some hosts charge by the axle), it took up valuable space ( and some areas charged for hosting the events) and took cars out of service (every car on display was not in revenue service...in some cases, for days). That doesn't even include the administrative aspects (coordinating movements, the entertainment, working with the private car owners, the excursions, security/police.) While a great deal of employees at the event were management "volunteers," plenty of people supporting the even were not "volunteers!"

I don;t know how much internet ads and television spots cost, but I'm sure you could have produced a great deal of them for what NTD costs....and they'd repeat!"

Times have changed. Passengers are not starved for entertainment these days. More people are more interested in creating their own private space.

Forcing people to choose between listening to something they would rather not hear and leaving the lounge car is bad business.

This is highly accurate. People aren't necessarily interested in being entertained. There are so many options for providing your own entertainment, that people often want to plug in and keep to themselves. They know how to kill time. Couple this with an administration that is is focused on costs, every dollar they spend must be justified with why it is needed. What can it bring to the table? They are cutting supporting services and you expect them to pay for entertainment?

It is nice if you can get it but if it isn't drawing people to the train, it may not stand.