Don't think the problem is as bad as you say. On all Amtrak service that I can think of, except 3 the business class has enhanced seating compared to coach. The exceptions are the Pennsylvanian, the Palmetto, and the coast starlight. BC doesn't have to be the most luxurious seating possible, it only has to be more luxurious than the coach offering.
Dear Mr Anderson
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cpotisch
Engineer
But remember that the soft product varies greatly. Certain routes offer unlimited complimentary soft beverages, some don't include anything, one (the Starlight) includes one free water bottle and a $6 voucher in the cafe or diner, etc, and they often do not make it clear at all which is which. Amtrak has not done a good job at all defining what the term "business class" actually means and what it includes.
And to be clear, business class is not my only gripe with Amtrak when it comes to inconsistency. On the Lake Shore and Capitol, many passengers have not gotten the promised amenity kits. USA-RAIL phone agents frequently give incorrect and sometimes even harmful information because we have had to pay fees we were told we wouldn't have to.
These are just a few examples of the glaring problems with inconsistency which make it very difficult to get any decent sense of what you need to expect or prepare for when taking Amtrak.
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Just wait until you ride the Acela IIs and have a 50/50 chance that you have to ride backwards.
Acela150
Super Buff
Even then the new trainsets will have FC at one end of the train. So once things get stable with the trainset rotation one should be able to make a guess on whether it'll be on the head end or rear end. BC you'd have to be lucky.
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bratkinson
Conductor
This is more insane than I originally thought!!! You, sir, are absolutely correct!
The insanity part is that Northeast Corridor 2 time table does NOT contain ALL the Amtrak trains in the NEC!!! I have always believed that the Northeast Corridor 2 time table showed all possibilities from BOS to WAS and all points in between.
Consider the poor schmuck that, like me, uses printable or printed time tables to plan my travels. Seeing all the options 'at once' makes a big difference! Maybe it's an old geezer thing as I've been using time tables for over 50 years to plan my travels. That way, if, during planning, my original ideas don't pan out, I can come up with a new plan in a couple of seconds having all the information right there in front of me, and see if that all works out. THEN I book the trip(s).
Yes, I know that todays' modern travelers will go to the Amtrak screen, enter NYP - WAS and there will be screen after screen to scroll through to decide which train best suits their needs. But what about connecting trains, not necessarily Amtrak. Then it's scroll through screen after screen on the appropriate web site only to discover that there's no connection without having to wait 3-4 hours in WAS, for example. SO, it's back to the Amtrak NYP - WAS screen again, enter the info again, and scroll through a zillion screens again. NO THANKS!!! But then, what's another 5 minutes of scrolling to someone that has their cellphone glued to their hand?
My train riding plan since retiring almost 4 years ago is to ride every route end to end of all the east coast subways/elevateds, commuter lines, light rail lines, and street car lines. In most cases, I do it as a same day 'out and back' from suburban Springfield MA. That means I have to catch the last Amtrak of the day home (#148). So, when I want to spend a day on the LIRR, I first look at the routes I haven't ridden yet, and do screen prints of schedules from and to NYP as well as Jamaica and other junctions to the end of the line stations. I then mentally lay out 'here first, then to there, change at Jamaica, then to the other place, then back to NYP, etc. I check the time tables and if plan A doesn't work,come up with Plan B, which often works. But I also build 'plan C' in case there's a 5 minute connection I fail to make, or I arrive at NYP 20 minutes late in the morning, etc. Having the printed time tables with me as I ride the commuter lines has helped me to change plans mid day such as last summer when the NJT line I had planned to ride was closed that day due to a retaining wall collapse in Summit. Try doing THAT when you can't get wifi or cell phone reception or have to spend a lot of time scrolling through screen after screen to figure out what to do next.
So, do I anticipate that Amtak will lose any customers due to not showing them all the NYP-WAS trains in the NC2 time table? Not likely. And in having a separate NC1 timetable that shows all the trains, those customers that want to see a timetable are covered.
Meanwhile...
So how to handle 8 trains per weekday that head to Sunnyside and then flip back to WAS? The more I think about a previous post saying they MUST go through the loop track and after being serviced, go directly to the platform, the more I think this has to be in error. Why??? Answer me this...If Acela #1234 arrives on track 12, and then has to depart 2-3 hours later and it gets put on track 10, for example, or, let's pick 12 again...If it can get to the loop from track 12 AND get to track 12 directly from Sunnyside, THEN IT DIDN"T HAVE TO LOOP IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!
The plaintiff rests.
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Bratkinson, you need to calm down a bit. There are three NEC timetables because there are just so many frequencies that it would be more confusing to put them all in one timetable, as that would make it many many pages long. NYP–WAS is a huge market and is much more popular than the rest of the NEC, so it makes sense that Amtrak have a special timetable just for that segment.
I do think it's unfortunate paper timetables are going away with many agencies, but most of the time, the benefits outweigh the negatives. They can be updated more often (maybe not in Amtrak's case
) and therefore don't waste paper. You're more than welcome to print out the timetables if you'd like!
I do think it's unfortunate paper timetables are going away with many agencies, but most of the time, the benefits outweigh the negatives. They can be updated more often (maybe not in Amtrak's case
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Oh man I forgot about this!
Well when you're paying as much as one does for an Acela ticket, I think riding forwards is a pretty standard, not-asking-a-lot amenity. Prices will undoubtedly go up after the Acela IIs come online also.
Acela150
Super Buff
I had assumed from the beginning that the new HST's would be more European, simply cause of the builder. And it appears that I'm correct. .
In Europe passengers are used to riding backwards and don't complain about it like we do. So YMMV.
jis
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Well no one says that one has to ride Acela IIs. One could fly facing forward guaranteed. [emoji23][emoji51]
jis
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After the plaintiff has rested for few days to calm down enough to have a rational peaceful discussion and maybe also become familiar with the track layout and traffic flow through the east end of Penn Station and F interlocking, maybe we will try again. Until then I won’t waste my time trying [emoji849]
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Having to ride backwards is a medical issue for some. I'm thinking of those of us who have equilibrium and balance issues. If you don't suffer from any such issue, count yourself lucky. But have some empathy for pax not as fortunate.
CCC1007
Customer Service Agent
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At this time, it may be useful to have some images to help with the concept that trains can't get to sunnyside without being looped. While I know that the diagrams I am showing may not be up to date, the general layout hasn't changed, as far as I know, for many years. The first is the diagram of the station, with the tunnels under 32nd and 33rd streets being the ones that are of most interest here. They only have a single track in each direction each.
The image below shows the track diagram of the SunnySide yard, as it was in 1956, and the pertinent information of how trains coming from WAS to the yard is shown in the circled area and the train then follows the arrows for the flow into the yard. This yard was clearly designed to be operated in a single way only, and each train serviced in the yard would only be able to be serviced after being turned to face back toward the station itself.
Hope this helps to clear up why it isn't practical to have trains not turn in NYC when they are going to travel to Washington, or for that matter, any point other than Boston.
Ryan
Court Jester
If there is a “Northeast Corridor 2” timetable, why would you assume that all of the trains are in there?
What did you think was in the “Northeast Corridor 1” timetable?
What did you think was in the “Northeast Corridor 1” timetable?
All the trains that don’t matter, and therefore people wouldn’t mind if they had to sit in a tunnel waiting for a platform to open because an Acela was occupying a track at the busiest train station in the country for two to three hours rather than going to the yard.
jis
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CCC1007 Thank you very much for posting the track diagrams!
Illustrates very clearly what I meant in saying that an assumption of having trains with power only at one end only is baked into the design of the track layout between Penn Station and Sunnyside, and is hard to change absent the addition of a (expensive) duckunder or two. One can discuss (and even disagree) on whether all that much money, that could be spent on more worthwhile projects, is justified for merely getting cars position the same in stations, when car position markers can adequately deal with the core issue.
Heck, IMHO a bigger problem in Penn Station on the Amtrak/NJT side of the station is lack of consistency in track assignments for trains. LIRR is much better at it in its part of the station. But even there, there are seemingly insurmountable technical and institutional issues, which have been hard to fix so far.
Illustrates very clearly what I meant in saying that an assumption of having trains with power only at one end only is baked into the design of the track layout between Penn Station and Sunnyside, and is hard to change absent the addition of a (expensive) duckunder or two. One can discuss (and even disagree) on whether all that much money, that could be spent on more worthwhile projects, is justified for merely getting cars position the same in stations, when car position markers can adequately deal with the core issue.
Heck, IMHO a bigger problem in Penn Station on the Amtrak/NJT side of the station is lack of consistency in track assignments for trains. LIRR is much better at it in its part of the station. But even there, there are seemingly insurmountable technical and institutional issues, which have been hard to fix so far.
Thirdrail7
Engineer
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Typically, I avoid bumping older threads that are based upon opinions. However, this was too glaring to ignore.
While this thread is definitely entertaining, lets clear up some of the misconceptions that weren't already addressed. ...and that starts with the last sentence in the post above.
First, there is a plan for the high speed trains. The Boston and and Washington starts are scheduled to with their trains to depart their originating terminal with first class on the rear. That will put them against the block in those terminals. The New York starts will have their WAS bound first class on the head end.
The key word is starts... of which Boston and Washington have 6 and New York has 4.
Once those trains reach their turnaround points, they are programmed based upon the physical characteristics and operational profile. As such, trains arriving Boston and Washington will turn on the platform while New York trains will proceed to the S&I building for midday inspections (although there are certain trains programmed to head to Washington's wheel inspection during the week which does not result in a wye/turn move.) These means trains originating at Boston or Washington and are arriving at their turn around points will now depart with first class on the head end. This is programmed.
The problem occurs between runs if there is a manipulation . This can knock sets out of sync. Now, most of that has been addressed already. It may not be a mechanical issue. Sometimes they will move equipment to represent late trains or there could something as a switch failure that caused the train to arrive "backwards."Sometimes, there is enough time between runs to correct the sets. However, if it is an operational issue, that set may be out of sync until said issue is corrected.
Otherwise, they will generally correct the issue the next day....if they can. This is because a great deal of daily track work and short term outages occur at night and during the weekends. Night time is when the train sets start heading for the barnyard. However, if there is an outage or track work, there IS an engine on each end. So, it may not get corrected.
A perfect example is what is occurring in NYP this weekend. There is a MAJOR, MAJOR outage. This is impacting the Keystones and certain Albany trains since access to the yard is extremely limited. Some of the Empire trains are actually operating in Pull-Pull mode, meaning that the business class will be on the opposite end of the affected trains. If an Acela needed a midday turn to correct a pointing issue, you can bet it would not occur on a day like today. ..particularly if it needed to turn in a timely fashion. WTC terminal had the same issue not too far back. Part of the wye was closed and I remember Richmond having an issue some months back.
To wrap this up, it is entire feasible to correct pointing but timing is the issue and possible delays are the driving factor. We've discussed this before the Alstom making progress on Acela 2 contract:
:
They are not likely to delay a train to satisfy pointing since a lot of the pointing issues stem from attempting to compensate for late equipment.
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cpotisch
Engineer
Which Empire trains? And are they using cab cars or an extra locomotives to control the trains?
Thirdrail7
Engineer
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The ones that stayed exclusively between ALB-NYP-ALB. As for cab cars, if they had cab cars, they would be push-pull trains....not pull-pull trains as stated.
cpotisch
Engineer
Sorry, thought you said push-pull.
Acela150
Super Buff
And Amtrak is in a need of Cab Cars. After the incident in Lancaster County that wrote another one off. For a while they had a Keystone set with 2 Sprinters on it. One on each end.
cpotisch
Engineer
So about 14,000 horsepower on a four car single-level train? I’m surprised that thing didn’t reach escape velocity.
Acela150
Super Buff
5 cars. According to a friend who is an engineer in the NEC. He ran that set once. He said that his train and an Acela train were crossed over. His train with 5 cars and two sprinters took off and the Acela was playing catch up and got by cause of the higher track speed.So about 14,000 horsepower on a four car single-level train? I’m surprised that thing didn’t reach escape velocity.
west point
Engineer
Scotty - /Warp factor 2 =========== Aye captain
Yeah I rode backwards while eating breakfast on the Silver Meteor, because I was seated opposite the direction of travel. It wasn't an issue.
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