Derailment of Cascades #501, DuPont WA, 2017-12-18

[Bierboy]

It's sad that so many people have appointed themselves judge, jury and executioner where the engineer is concerned. It's pretty much a case of "people were hurt/killed, and somebody has to answer for it".

I've been following this thread closely since the first post, and, if you are referring to folks here at AU, I believe you are wrong. If you are leveling accusations at the news media, then, perhaps, you are correct. However, I have been closely following this on multiple media outlets, and, while there have been factual errors in the past 48+ hours, I don't believe the engineer has been treated unfairly. YMMV...

This opinion piece in the Seattle Times today was a good example.

 

[LookingGlassTie]

@Bierboy

No, I wasn't referring to anyone here at AU. In fact, I've noticed that the discussion here has been relatively calm.

I am a member of several Amtrak groups on Facebook, and posts dealing with the Washington derailment have gotten rather heated. To the point where the admin of one of the groups has decided that there will be a single post for the incident and that all members of that group should comment to it only. All other posts will be deleted.

What prompted my post on this thread was a comment on one of those group pages. The commenter basically "hopes" that the engineer will be tried for negligent homicide. If the official investigation lends itself to that, that's one thing. But let's wait and see how it turns out before calling for people's heads.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

There are two basic possibilities: 1) the engineer aimed to activate the controls, or 2) the controls failed.

Whether the engineer is willfully negligent, grossly negligent, or responsible involuntarily, even with failed controls, there was about 40 seconds between the moment the engineer should have known something was wrong and the train derailing. So I would say it would be very difficult to explain a situation of no engineer fault.

 

[LookingGlassTie]

@GML,

Understood, that makes sense

 

[crescent-zephyr]

The big question is / will be... how much training did the engineer receive on the new route.

I know that engineers and Conductors get qualified on a route, but this crew would have been working the Portland to Seattle route already. When a new portion of a route gets added... how much training is required before they are good to go? I have no idea what the protocol is for that.

I know they have been "Testing" on the new line for a while.. but is that the crews? or more for the equipment?

 

[Ziv]

I love train travel but know little of the engineering or technology that goes into how it is done safely. So that is the caveat. But to have the tragedy in Philadelphia two years ago and then to see what are basic similarities, at least to a tyro, in Tacoma, it just makes you go "What the he** happened?!" But I guess looking at the wreck in Santiago de Compostela shows that even a modern European system can fail sometimes. I just hope we don't have another accident like this for a long time.

On edit: I did not know about the lack of PTC in SdC. I assumed that they had it. Thanks for the info, Jis.

 

[Steve4031]

The situational awareness is much more difficult when it’s dark out. I once observed a conductor or AC conductor questioning himself if we had met a certain train. I saw the lights in the window of the other train and told him discretely.

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[jis]

The big question is / will be... how much training did the engineer receive on the new route.

I know that engineers and Conductors get qualified on a route, but this crew would have been working the Portland to Seattle route already. When a new portion of a route gets added... how much training is required before they are good to go? I have no idea what the protocol is for that.

I know they have been "Testing" on the new line for a while.. but is that the crews? or more for the equipment?

The crew has to qualify for any modified route as if it was a new route that they were qualifying for. So the training for the new route is exactly as much as it was for the old route.

Now that is the way it should be. There are some serious questions about how the qualification was actually carried out in this case, and that is subject of the NTSB investigation too. It is possible that not much training and qualification happened at the higher speed. So we'll see.

See this article for some background:

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article190928224.html

I love train travel but know little of the engineering or technology that goes into how it is done safely. So that is the caveat. But to have the tragedy in Philadelphia two years ago and then to see what are basic similarities, at least to a tyro, in Tacoma, it just makes you go "What the he** happened?!" But I guess looking at the wreck in Santiago de Compostela shows that even a modern European system can fail sometimes. I just hope we don't have another accident like this for a long time.

Santiago de Composta was also caused by a situational awareness issue. The Operator there thought that the train was protected by an automated system, when actually it was not. At Santiago de Composta the train had just come off a high speed line with full protection onto a non-HSR line where such protection and speed control had not yet been switched on, though as I recall they were planned to be switched on at some point in the future. Strictly speaking nothing had failed technically!

There are complex human factors issue in using automation wherein a human being may become complacent knowing that even if they make a mistake they will be protected from their own mistake by the automation. There are various techniques for handling such, including penalizing the operator for the times they set of automation to stop them from doing something unsafe. But the downside to that is that often automation systems are more conservative to be safe and just the triggering does not imply that something unsafe was actually happening. So there may be more aggressive penalization than is reasonable.

The airline pilots among us here probably are quite experienced with dealing with some of these issue. There have been a few accidents where the pilot thought the automation system was in one mode providing full protection while the system had popped inadvertently into another mode, unnoticed, which provides lesser protection. Over-dependence on automation that actually change recovery behavior assuming automation is operation led to at least one disaster caused by a stall.

So, it is a really complex issue and a lot remains to be learned about the human automation interactions.

 

[caravanman]

I believe I read somewhere that in Japan, if you can sit at the front of a train, you may observe the driver/engineer/operator will point at each signal and speak out loud the signal indication. I understood this "active" style of observation kept the brain in a more alert state.

Ed.

 

[George K]

I believe I read somewhere that in Japan, if you can sit at the front of a train, you may observe the driver/engineer/operator will point at each signal and speak out loud the signal indication. I understood this "active" style of observation kept the brain in a more alert state.

Ed.

 

[greatcats]

Yes, I observed this procedure on a diesel branch line train returning to Nagoya in 2009. Perhaps worth adopting here. The engineers wear sharp uniforms, like airline pilots.

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[Bierboy]

I believe I read somewhere that in Japan, if you can sit at the front of a train, you may observe the driver/engineer/operator will point at each signal and speak out loud the signal indication. I understood this "active" style of observation kept the brain in a more alert state.

Ed.

That is fascinating...and makes so much sense. That's probably why we don't require this in the U.S. I checked out several other videos and explanations of why the Japanese rail industry requires it.

 

[George K]

That is fascinating...and makes so much sense. That's probably why we don't require this in the U.S. I checked out several other videos and explanations of why the Japanese rail industry requires it.

Notice the presence of two personnel in the cab. I don't know if that's the case throughout Japan, of course.

 

[Ryan]

That is fascinating...and makes so much sense. That's probably why we don't require this in the U.S. I checked out several other videos and explanations of why the Japanese rail industry requires it.

It’s done in New York:

 

[greatcats]

I only saw one engineer on the various trains I rode. The man standing in this video may be the conductor.

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[railiner]

That is fascinating...and makes so much sense. That's probably why we don't require this in the U.S. I checked out several other videos and explanations of why the Japanese rail industry requires it.

It’s done in New York:

Great video, thanks for the link! The girl holding those signs certainly brightened the day for those conductor's performing a boring task....

BTW, for those not knowing the 'why' of that....

It is to make sure the conductor does not open the doors if the train is not at its spot....they had some incidents of conductors opening doors when trains were not entirely on the high level platform, or the wrong side of the train, sometimes resulting in passenger injuries...

 

[neroden]

If anyone's listened to a scanner, you will note that on CSX lines the engineer and conductor call out *all* signals and *all* defect detectors and *all* temporary speed restrictions as well as *all* stations. This keeps 'em awake. Unfortunately on other companies' lines they don't -- specifically they often don't call out clears, which is a *problem*. I'm not sure how much difference pointing to the signals makes when you're specifically saying 'em out loud -- it probably helps some. But if you neither point nor say it out loud, it's quite easy to get zoned out.

 

[GiantsFan]

Didn't see this posted already, sorry if its a repost.

If you're traveling in the area, this is the latest update from Amtrak

Temporary schedule:

http://www.amtrakcascades.com/sites/default/files/cascades1217-0118%20interm.pdf

Service Disruption South of Seattle
Until further notice, all Cascades and Coast Starlight Service trains will detour between Olympia-Lacey -Tacoma, operating out of the original Tacoma Stationlocated at 1001 Puyallup Avenue, Tacoma, WA 98421. Please note that customers traveling on this detour may experience a 10 to 15-minute delay.

Beginning Dec. 20, Cascades Service from Eugene to Portland, OR will be operating with substitute equipment and limited amenities, including no food service, checked baggage service, business class or bikes. Pets will still be allowed on board. Additionally, Trains 505 and 508, which were scheduled to operate as thru service between Eugene and Seattle, will now operate only between Seattle and Portland. New Trains 515 and 510 will be introduced on the segment between Portland and Eugene and will be a cross platform connection at Portland for passengers traveling north of Portland.

 

[Steve4031]

If anyone's listened to a scanner, you will note that on CSX lines the engineer and conductor call out *all* signals and *all* defect detectors and *all* temporary speed restrictions as well as *all* stations. This keeps 'em awake. Unfortunately on other companies' lines they don't -- specifically they often don't call out clears, which is a *problem*. I'm not sure how much difference pointing to the signals makes when you're specifically saying 'em out loud -- it probably helps some. But if you neither point nor say it out loud, it's quite easy to get zoned out.

Iirc someplace in this same forum someone used the letters csx to spell out crash, smash, explode to high light a number of recent derailments.

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[neroden]

CSX's derailments were due to gross failure to maintain the track. They were terrible but the cause was nothing to do with the policies for the engineers and conductors.

 

[XHRTSP]

Dumb question:

You know on the side of highways youll see those signs that display your speed and flash if youre exceeding the limit... Do railroads ever use those?

 

[offroad437]

Dumb question:

You know on the side of highways youll see those signs that display your speed and flash if youre exceeding the limit... Do railroads ever use those?

I have heard some defect detectors say speed but not all of them do.

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[BobWeaver]

I was considering trying to take this train to be part of the inaugural run. My last flight on the 17th (IST-SNN-ATL) was delayed multiple times, and had I stayed on time I most likely would have gotten stuck in the Atlanta fiasco anyway. This is definitely a black eye for the Cascades.

IST-SNN-ATL?

What airline flies that?

My airline does every few days on behalf of Turkish Cargo.

Atlas/Kalitta? (Jetblue here)

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Kalitta on 747-400s.

 

[Bierboy]

First hand account of the 501 wreck...note, there are some political comments towards the end. Overall it is an enthralling story.

https://transitsleuth.com/2017/12/21/the-story-on-amtrak-cascades-train-501-derailment/

 

[riderails]

"First hand account" -- Fascinating. And, given everything, writer has the right to "be emotional" (referring to the so-called political comments).