Diesel locomotives at NYP
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Those are dual mode locomotives. They can run on diesel or on electric using the third rail. They are running on third rail in Penn Station. I am sure the rail fans here will go into more detail.
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With rare exceptions, those are dual mode locomotives. They run off the electric third rail in the New York Penn area and through the tunnels, then switch to pure diesel when the third rail ends.
battalion51
Engineer
Every now and then you may see a P-42 running in the lead on 66/67, but there almost always would be an electric behind it. They do this either as a power move or to run the train under diesel power when catenary in areas outside NYP needs to be taken offline during the overnight hours for repair. This way they can run the train but allow the catenary to go down.
MattW
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NJT now also runs dual-mode locomotives into NYP in the ALP-45DPs. Unlike the other listed locomotives, these are dual catenary and diesel instead of third rail and diesel.
When there are problems with the third rail equipment on these dual mode locomotives, they sometimes will (improperly, if not illegally) just run them on their diesel power....
It's been that way ever since FL-9's first started running into GCT on the old New Haven. Of course, the Park Avenue 'tunnel' into Grand Central has better ventilation then the underwater tubes into and out of Penn Station...even the old Turboliner equipment had its third rail issues and often ran using its gas turbines, which were also supposed to have been shut off at NYP....
It's been that way ever since FL-9's first started running into GCT on the old New Haven. Of course, the Park Avenue 'tunnel' into Grand Central has better ventilation then the underwater tubes into and out of Penn Station...even the old Turboliner equipment had its third rail issues and often ran using its gas turbines, which were also supposed to have been shut off at NYP....
greatcats
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Amtrak used to, and perhaps still does, keep a diesel switcher west of the station in an open air area. I believe it was there to move equipment in the event of an emergency. I'm sure if diesels regularly ran underground there would be serious fume problems.
jis
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Amtrak keeps a dual mode P32ACDM as standby to rescue trains out of the North River Tunnels if needed. Remember, there is no open area where there used to be any more. It has been covered up to make space for a new office building.
It's actually not against the law to run a diesel there. It's just not a very good idea and Amtrak tries not to do it unless they have no choice.
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Alan is right. It is not illegal at all. Amtrak has a written procedure on how to get approval to run diesel locomotives through the tunnels and Penn Station. It requires approval from a few high level people as I recall.
I have seen the Lake Shore Limited arrive in New York Penn Station behind a P42 pinch hitting for an absent in action P32ACDM. Also I believe the 20 car Viewliner Baggage special ran through Penn Station behind diesel power when it arrived into Sunnyside from the north. So yeah, though rare, but it happens.
As for a P32ACDM getting gapped, I believe the documented procedure is to get them across the gap using diesel power rather than screwing up operations at Penn Station by remaining stalled and blocking the interlocking plant. So that is neither illegal, nor improper AFAIK.
I have seen the Lake Shore Limited arrive in New York Penn Station behind a P42 pinch hitting for an absent in action P32ACDM. Also I believe the 20 car Viewliner Baggage special ran through Penn Station behind diesel power when it arrived into Sunnyside from the north. So yeah, though rare, but it happens.
As for a P32ACDM getting gapped, I believe the documented procedure is to get them across the gap using diesel power rather than screwing up operations at Penn Station by remaining stalled and blocking the interlocking plant. So that is neither illegal, nor improper AFAIK.
neroden
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Yep, it's legal to run diesels through NYP -- it's avoided because it's usually a bad idea. The 20 car Viewliner Baggage special ran straight through under diesel power, quite a sight; there are YouTube videos of it.
It's not legal to run diesels through GCT, but that law is specific to GCT. (And actually it might have been repealed, I don't remember.)
It's not legal to run diesels through GCT, but that law is specific to GCT. (And actually it might have been repealed, I don't remember.)
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I thought the law specific to GCT was about steam, and not diesel. But I could be wrong. I have not actually seen what the alleged law says in quite a while and have no cite for it. Do you per chance have a reference to it? Thanks.
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The law written for GCT is all about steam, since an accident was caused by too much smoke in the tunnels. Steam put out a lot more smoke than diesels. Not suggesting that we want to go crazy with diesels either, but they aren't as bad when it comes to the smoke level. Carcinogen's may well be a different matter.
But I can tell you beyond any shadow of a doubt that I have smelled diesel smoke at GCT more than once. Quite a few times. They even keep a diesel switcher sitting on a track inside that massive interlocking on the upper level.
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In the past the FL9s operating into GCT used to have a little panto on their roof to collect power from overhead rails through the gaps in the interlocking plant. Gapping continues to be a significant problem at GCT even for the P32ACDMs which have their collection shoes further apart along their length than the FL9s used to. And of course the way to get out of a stall should it occur, is to fire up the diesel briefly and span the gap. Ideally a train is operated with sufficient momentum to go across all gaps coasting. but sometimes that becomes impossible with curves and relative position of signals specially for trains arriving into GCT in push mode.
Thirdrail7
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As long as the ventilation fans are operational, you don't need high level approval for diesel usage in the New York terminal district. Additionally, if passengers aren't involved in the actual movement (such as the baggage car special), the use use of a diesel is usually authorized without much thought. Such examples include work train movements on through tracks when the catenary is de-energized for maintenance.
I wonder what kind of job the ventilation fans do clearing smoke from the East and North River tunnels? Say compared to the ones used in places like the Moffat or Cascade Tunnel, that are designed to clear engine smoke....
Slightly off topic, but I ride the subway to work in the early morning hours, where there are several 'work trains' utilizing diesel locomotives...while you can smell some of the exhaust, it is remarkable on how little they do emit....they must be designed to run 'extra clean'.....
Slightly off topic, but I ride the subway to work in the early morning hours, where there are several 'work trains' utilizing diesel locomotives...while you can smell some of the exhaust, it is remarkable on how little they do emit....they must be designed to run 'extra clean'.....
SubwayNut
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I once arrived on an Empire Service train that had gapped entering the platform at Penn Station. Luckily the front car of the front coach was already at the end of the platform and we were all told to walk through the train there to get off. I checked Amtrak Status Maps and noticed that it caused an hour or two of delays for Empire Service trains blocking the switches. Including from a train that I heard the all aboard from across the platform as I walked out of the station.
My blog post on the experience (scroll down): http://subwaynut.com/updates/2013/10/08/an-hour-late-es-train-284-points-run-from-yonkers-breaking-down-upon-arrival-into-nyp-missing-the-newark-leg-and-getting-the-12-13-refunded-instead-of-waiting/
My blog post on the experience (scroll down): http://subwaynut.com/updates/2013/10/08/an-hour-late-es-train-284-points-run-from-yonkers-breaking-down-upon-arrival-into-nyp-missing-the-newark-leg-and-getting-the-12-13-refunded-instead-of-waiting/
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If the front car was at a platform then the problem was something else. There really isn't any gap in third rail at the platforms. It most likely was some sort of failure of the P32ACDM.
neroden
Engineer
It was about steam, but it applied to diesels too. (It was written so as to require electrification.) And it's actually not about GCT, it's about *the Park Avenue Tunnels* specifically. It was a local NYC municipal ordinance. I haven't seen the text of it in a loooong time, and I did read at one point that it may have been repealed.
When the richest part of the city decides that they want to make you electrify through their area, they can make you electrify.
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neroden
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Ah yes, thanks. I've seen this before but couldn't find it on this round of Googling.
It's this clause which incidentally bans internal combustion engines on the GCT approach: "are hereby authorized to run their trains by electricity, or by compressed air, or by any motive power other than steam and which does not involve combustion in the motors themselves,"
It's this clause which incidentally bans internal combustion engines on the GCT approach: "are hereby authorized to run their trains by electricity, or by compressed air, or by any motive power other than steam and which does not involve combustion in the motors themselves,"
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