Discontinued Train Routes

[denmarks]

I have noticed gaps in the numbering sequence of Amtrak trains and I know that some of them are discontinued routes. I have not been able to find info on some of the following numbers. Does anyone know what they referred to?

1-2 Sunset Limited

3-4 Southwest Chief

5-6 California Zephyr

7-8 Empire Builder

9-10 ???

11 Coast Starlight (Why is there a gap between N and S?)

12-13 ???

14 Coast Starlight

15-16 National Chief

17-18 ???

19-20 Crescent

21-22 Texas Eagle

23-24 ???

There are others in the under 100 range that you can see at my web site. Just pull down the train number menu.

 

[Anthony]

an old list shows...

12 as a northeastdirect train and 13 as "mail express"

"10 - SUNSET LIMITD", 9 blank

23-24 "gulf coast limited"

17-18 blank

 

[AlanB]

This is unfortunately not an easy question to answer. Most of the numbers that Amtrak uses were inherited from the freight RR's when Amtrak took over passenger service. The numbers are not necessarily numbers that Amtrak assigned.

In fact in the very first timetable that Amtrak released there were actually seven different trains running that all were #1. One of those train #1's was Amtrak's original City of NOL southbound carried #1. The northbound was #2.

Another was the westbound Denver Zephyr and of course the original westbound Sunset Limited which ran from New Orleans to LA. Eventually only the Sunset Limited carried #1 & #2.

Therefore gaps may indicate trains that Amtrak did eliminate. On the other hand a gap could exist simply because the freight RR's never used that number or had already eliminated that number prior to Amtrak taking over.

So while there is some rhyme and reason to the current Amtrak numbers, there will also be some things that can never be explained.

 

[battalion51]

Other trains have changed numbers over the years. The only example I can think of off the top of my head is the Maple Leaf, which at one time was 97/98, that now belongs to the Silver Meteor.

 

[Allen Dee]

9-10 ???11 Coast Starlight (Why is there a gap between N and S?)

12-13 ???

14 Coast Starlight

9-10 was the eliminated North Coast Limited. Remember all the hoopla about two train routes through rural Montana and North Dakota?

12-13 had to do with the former SP's train numbering system. All trains heading toward Oakland or San Francisco were considered to be westbound by timetable direction and carried odd numbers. The opposite was true for eastbound trains. When the SP still provided the operating crews for the CS, the Oakland-LA portion of the train was known as SP-12, while the LA-Oakland portion was known as SP-13.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Looks like your questions have been pretty well answered.

About the only thing I can add to it from my perspective of being an active railfan before Amtrak would be that there NEVER DID seem to be any rhyme or reason to train numbering. Before Amtrak, railroads did not seem to have a "sequential" way of numbering trains.They had all kinds of numbers all over the map. I saw very little pattern.

For example, in my hometown of Chattanooga there were two railroads. At one railroad, the numbers were: 11/12, 80/81, 95/94, 3/4, 93/92.. At the other railroad the numbers were 17/18, 35/36, 41/42, 45/46, 1/2, 3/4. Go figure, as they say. (Oh, yes, if trains were "inter-line", that is, operated by more than one railroad, they would sometimes have a different number on each road. Also sometimes train numbers changed through the years, just as they have sometimes done under Amtrak).

Actually there probably was some sense to the above, lost in antiquity. For example, the 40's numbers trains covered the same route, The 1 through 4 trains on the second railroad also went the same route. So maybe, originally, each route(on a specific railroad) had its own numbering system.

Since Amtrak is a national operation, unlike the private railroads of the past, they have been able, through the years, to smoooth it out a little bit. They make it at least appear to be a little more sequential that the old railroads did.

 

[denmarks]

9-10 was the eliminated North Coast Limited.  Remember all the hoopla about two train routes through rural Montana and North Dakota?

What were the termini of the North Coast Limited?

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Chicago to Seattle, as I recall (possibly--not sure, may have had an extension to Portland as the Empire Builder does.) Cannot tell without my old timetables with me.

Also, actually under Amtrak if it was called North Coast Hiawatha. North Coast Limited is the old railroad name, before Amtrak.

 

[Just Thinking]

Additional Info: Per my 1972 Timetable

9-10 North Coast Hiawatha <Chicago-Seattle>

12-13 Coast Daylight <Seattle-Los Angeles> Later in life 12 was an Northeast Direct, 13 was an all mail <Springfield-Washington DC>

30-31 National Limited <NYC-Kansas City>

52-53 Floridian <Chicago-Miami>

:blink:

 

[Viewliner]

Didn't realize the Auto Train had the Floridians old numbers. :huh: :unsure: :blink:

 

[Amfleet]

Didn't realize the Auto Train had the Floridians old numbers. :huh: :unsure: :blink:

That would make sense since the Auto Train Corp. Took over the Midwest-Florida and Northeast-Florida route for its service. Somewhere along the line the Lorton-Sanford auto train probably ended up with numbers 52 and 53. Maybe after the Midwest-Florida route was annulled.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

On the thing about North Coast Hiawatha---I forgot to mention there was a pre-Amtrak train called the Olympian Hiwatha. So....Amtrak joined two names together, North Coast Limited and Olympian Hiawatha, to form the North Coast Hiawatha.

 

[steve_relei]

In 1973, Amtrak introduced the North Coast Hiawatha, which followed the route of former NP's North Coast Limited between the Twin Cities and Spokane, through southern North Dakota and Montana (Bismarck, Billings, Butte, Missoula, etc.). That train was originally numbered 9 &10 ( after the #7 & 8 of the neighboring Empire Builder). Both trains used the Milwaukee Road route between Chicago and the Twin Cities. In about 1975 (I'm not sure exactly when, anymore), Amtrak introduced an overnight train between Chicago and the Twin Cities,which then went on to Duluth (MN). That train was numbered 9 & 10; the North Coast Hiawatha became #17 & 18. Until about 1977, the Empire Builder was operated on a daily schedule, while the Hiawatha operated on a tri-weekly service, although it was put on daily schedules during the summer and Christmas holiday seasons. From 1977 to 1979, the Empire Builder operated four days a week, and the Hiawatha three days a week. The trains alternated so that there would be daily service between Chicago, Milwaukee, Twin Cities, Fargo, Spokane, and Seattle. When the Hiawatha was discontinued in 1979, the Builder continued its four-days-a-week service until 1981. At that time, it was switched to the former GN line between Seattle and Spokane and added the Portland segment.

Prior to Amtrak, both the Empire Builder and the North Coast Limited were part of the same train between Chicago and the Twin Cities (where they split), and both offered Spokane to Portland connections on the SP&S. The GN cars were switched at the GN station (which is gone now and how the site of Riverfront Park, the clock tower still stands) in Spokane. The NP cars were switched at Pasco. Between Portland and Pasco, it was all one train.

Besides the North Coast Limited, the NP also had the Mainstreeter, which operated through Montana at night (as opposed the the North Coast's mostly daylight journey) and was the "milk" run, making all the little stops the North Coast didn't have time to make (like Laurel, MT). Another difference: the Mainstreeter went through Helena; the North Coast went through Butte. The route over Homestake Pass is now out of service, although I believe the tracks are still there and could be revived for service. The North Coast was a fine train and had one of the most scenic routes in the country, in some ways more than the Builder. The Builder's primary attraction is Glacier National Park, but it's primarily northern plains to the East, and some people find them kind of boring. Also, coming from the east to the west, Glacier is crossed during the early evening hours and is not seen during the winter hours. On the North Coast, it is scenic at least from Billings onward to the west. Shortly after leaving Billings, you can see the Rockies in the distance, and you snake along the Yellowstone River until Livingston. It is quite pretty, anytime of the year. I did have a chance, once, to travel east of Billings, and it was more scenic than I thought it would be: mostly along the Yellowstone River, which has some nice, scenic bends to it. Trees and vegetation. You pass Pompei's Pillar, where Lewis and Clark stopped and carved their names.

The NP's dining cars were renowned for the huge Idaho baked potatoes they served.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Thanks for the memories Steve. I was not clear about the route changes through the years. I, too, remember about the Idaho BIg Baked Potato(even had one a time or two). I also remember a nice article in TRAINS Magazine years ago (possibly by David Morgan, not sure) entitled "The Clean WIndow Train" about the Empire Builder.

Also I recall the Western Star, companion train to the EB. In a sense, it, too, was the milk run to the EB like the Mainstreeter was to the N.Coast LTd. But I think the Star was a little classier. For one thing, I think it was officially advertised as a "streamliner" though of course its schedule was much slower than the EB.

 

[steve_relei]

I would probably have to agree with you that the Western Star was a classier train than the Mainstreeter. In fact, in many ways, the GN was the classier railroad than the NP. However, the Mainstreeter had its functions. It was the train railroad employees with passes used, and I am sure it was comfortable in its own way.

The Western Star served Grand Forks and veered from Havre to serve Great Falls before rejoining the mainline in Shelby and made the stops at Glacier Park. According to Lines West, the train was combined with the Fast Mail in 1967. Charles R. Wood quoted someone as saying it was the only freight train with a dining car.

The Olympian Hiawatha ceased service all the way to Seattle in 1961; it went as far as Deer Lodge. In 1963, the train was pared back to the Twin cities. One book I read said that the North Coast Limited's patronage increased during the 1960s. I wonder if it had anything to do with the disapperance of the Hiawatha! For many miles, the two lines parallel each other.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Steve, I seem to recall that the Milwaukee Road(with its Olympian Hiawatha) did not get into that business until much later---the GN and NP were already firmly entrenched, and that it never caught up. I recall the Olympia Hi NEVER got a regular consist much longer than about seven cars.....a beautiful train, esp that rear end sky top observation, but it was just too little too late, too much business already sewn up.

 

[steve_relei]

The Milwaukee Road completed its Pacific Extension later than the GN and NP (in the early 1900s), but when it did open, its Olympian Hiawatha (whatever train name it was using at the time the line opened) and other such trains were as substantial as the other two roads' trains, at least they were during the steam era. Of course, the Milwaukee was also famous for the electrics it used from Harlowton, MT, to Avery,ID, and then again from Othello, WA, to Seattle and Tacoma (including over the Cascades). There was a famous picture of a streamlined, electrified Olympian crossing a bridge in the heart of the Washington Cascades. The train was streamlined and had a full-length dome and the wrap-around-windowed observation cars added. Milwaukee Road trains used Union Station, rather than King Street. The trains would arrive in Seattle, after unloading passengers in Seattle, the locomotives went to the reaf of the train and pulled it into Tacoma Union Station. Coming back, the locomotives would pull from the rear of the train to Seattle, then run to the front part of the train and pull the train from then on to the east.

After the Hiawatha's route was cut back in the early 1960s, I believe those cars continued in use on the line between Chicago and the Twin Cities.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I think I know the picture you are talking about,and I do remember it had a full length dome(probably called something like "Grand Dome", not sure) as well as the Observation car on the rear.

Yes,the Olympian Hiawatha cars continued to be used- after it was discontinued. There were, you no doubt know, other Hiawathas. Just as there were other Eagles(beside the Texas Eagle), other Chiefs(besides the Super Chief or today's Southwest Chief, other Zephyrs (beside the CZ), etc.My point---sort of reverting back to Amtrak's use of the name Hiawatha on the North Coast Hiawatha.. It was a "grand old railroad name" for several trains.

Speaking of the Hiawatha's sky top observation cars, one used to be parked at the Milwuaee Station at least a few years ago. Don't know if if is still there or not. You can see little shots of it in TRAINS Magazine from time to me in various ads, etc.

 

[PennsyFan]

The skytop car Cedar Rapids is owned by the people who run the Milwaukee Road (361 I think) 4-8-4 steam engine. They use it as a first class car on their excursions. It's really an excellent service, and if you're in the Midwest in the summer and have the time, you should try it.

 

[steve_relei]

Yes, I do know there were other Hiawathas, and that they continued right up until Amtrak. One slight error I made: the North Coast Hiawatha apparently started in 1971 as a Minneapolis-Spokane only train--breaking off and joining with the Empire Builder at those two cities. By the time I took it in 1973, it was a separate train all the way from Chicago to Seattle. The North Coast Hiawatha was a modest train. During the winter months it averaged six cars: baggage, two coaches (usually at least one dome coach), a dome lounge, diner, and a sleeper. Motive power after 1973 was usually a single SDP40F with a F(7 or 9) B Unit. During the summer, the train swelled to nine cars. Sometimes it featured NP's dome sleepers (sleeping compartments instead of coach seats on the lower levels). Former NP dome coaches were frequently used; the NP "Monad" symbol with etched on the heating grid at the front of the dome section (you can see that in the first Superman movie during one of the interior train shots). Also during the summer, two SDP40Fs were used. That is until about 1977. There were problems with the six-wheel trucks of the locomotives (including a derailment on the Hiawatha near Flynn, MT, attributed to the locomotives). BN freight locomotives were substituted, but they were not capable of maintaining passenger train speeds and schedules suffered. Eventually, the SDP40Fs returned to service but with speed restrictions. Printed schedules were lengthened. Eventually, the F40PHs began being used on the train (and its sister the Empire Buider), and boiler cars (former E units) were used to heat the cars. Train speeds were allowed to go back up and the schedule was revised to show that, but then the train continued being late most--if not all--the time coming from the East. The arrival times from the West were usually pretty good.Prior to that, despite the reputation of other trains, the Hiawatha was almost always on time--in both directions. One could set one's watch to it. From 1977 until its untimely death, the Hiawatha ran on a three-day-a-week schedule (which frustrated a lot of people), alternating with the Builder at the end points. However, service, food, and personnel were all good and commendable and patronage numbers swelled and remained healthy till the end (include the last scheduled runs). Being that the Hiawatha and Builder were alterating each others trains and equipment, I frequently saw former-GN Great Domes on the train. Actually, I never knew how much of a pain in the behind these cars (in terms of maintenance, etc.) both for Amtrak and even for the GN.

The Milwaukee's full-length dome cars also spent time on CN's Super Continental and on Auto Train as well as on various Amtrak trains.

Yes, I do know there were other Hiawathas, Chiefs, Zephyrs, Rockets. Incidentally, no one seems to be bothered that trains had and some still do have names associated with Indians (Native Americans). Hiawatha was a great name and train. However, I think it was the Santa Fe with its Super Chief that represented the highest quality in rail travel. In this case, the Indian name is associated with something that is the finest, the best that there was, and that should be a high compliment to any Native American who wishes to be associated with it.

Zephyr? There are now cars and other products that carry the name "Zephyr," but I will always associate the name with the trains more than anything else.

 

[steve_relei]

Oh, I believe that train #15 & 16 belonged to the Lone Star (formerly the Texas Chief), which traveled from Chicago to Houston. It too was discontinued in 1979.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I know this topic is old as hell, but I happen to have an answer to the mans question. I can not find names for trains 34,37,38, 39, and 45. If anyone knows these, let me know.

Most number/name combos are taken out of schedule of April 29th, 1979- probably the largest Amtrak's network ever was. If it is not taken out of that scheudule, it is taken out of another earlier or later one, or comes from Train Web. Most are from schedules- I don't trust anyone but Amtrak to be listing the information accurately. If taken from other sources than the 4/29/79, it will be bolded. If the route is not run now, I will list its end points, and, if relevent, a major central city to help demonstrate its route in parentheses. If it is run now under a different name, its current name is listed in those parentheses. If it runs now under the same name, I don't list anything. You can look em up on Amtrak's site if you are interested. If it runs in a corridor designated in the current timetable, I list that corridors name.

There may be several trains that have used these numbers. Me, being lazy, stopped once I found a single name to go with the number. For example, the briefly run (B) train, the Spirit of California, was 15 (Lone Star) and 18 (North Coast Hiawatha). I suspect that the 5 numbers I have not found service for have also been used.

1-2. Sunset Limited

3-4. Southwest Limited (Super Chief/Southwest Chief)

5-6. San Francisco Zephyr (Slightly rerouted California Zephyr)

7-8. Empire Builder

9-10. North Star (Chicago - Duluth)

11-14. Coast Starlight

12. Fast Mail (Northeast Corridor)

13. Coast Daylight (Oakland-San Diego)

15-16. Lone Star/Texas Chief (Chicago-Kansas City-Houston)

17-18. North Coast Hiawatha (Chicago-Billings -Seatle)

19-20. Southern Crescent (Now Crescent)

21-22. Inter American (Texas Eagle)

23-24. Gulf Coast Limited (Mobile-New Orleans)

25-26. Pioneer (Chicago-Denver- Portland-Seattle)

27-28. Empire Builder Portland Section

29. Capitol Limited

30-31. National Limited (New York-Pittsburgh-Kansas City)

32-33. Shanandoah (Washington-Cumberland-Cincinati)

34.

35-36. Desert Wind (Chicago-Las Vegas-Los Angeles)

37-38-39.

40-41. Broadway Limited (New York-Philadelphia-Pittsburgh-Chicago)

42-43. Valley Forge (Keystone)

44. Pennsylvanian

45.

46-47. Three Rivers (New York-Philadelphia-Pittsburgh-Chicago)

48-49. Lake Shore Limited

50-51. Cardinal (Running through Richmond, IA, and bypassing Indianapolis)

52-53. Auto Train

54-55. Mountaineer (Norfolk-Catlettsburg-Chicago)

56-57. Floridian (Chicago-Florida)

58-59. Panama Limited (City of New Orleans)

60-61. Montrealer (Vermonter to Montreal)

62. Niagara Rainbow (Overnight Maple Leaf)

63-64. Niagara Rainbow (ES to Niagara Falls NY)

65. Salt City Express (Empire Service)

66-67. Night Owl/Hilltopper (Northeast Corridor to Was, then Catlettsburg)

68-69. Adirondack

70-71. Henry Hudson (Empire Service)

72-75. Washington Irving (Empire Service)

73-74. Empire State Express (Empire Service)

76-79. Dewitt Clinton (Empire Service)

77-78. Bear Mountain (Empire Service)

80. Carolinian

81-82. Silver Star (Atlantic Coast Service)

83-84. Silver Meteor (Atlantic Coast Service)

85-86. Champion (Atlantic Coast Service)

87-88. Florida Special (Atlantic Coast Service-Express Richmond-Winterhaven)

89-90. Palmetto

91-92. Silver Star (Atlantic Coast Service)

93-99. Virginian (Northeast Corridor)

94-95. Old Dominion (Northeast Corridor)

96. Tidewater (Northeast Corridor)

97-98. Silver Meteor (Atlantic Coast Service)

 

[the_traveler]

29. Capitol Limited

Was there not a counterpart #30 for the CL?

50-51. Cardinal (Running through Richmond, IA, and bypassing Indianapolis)

That was some bypass - to IOWA! :lol: (Or did you mean IN - Indiana?)

 

[Montanan]

Cool list! I think there are likely still some additions, though.

One thing to remember is that a few numbers have been reused on multiple trains. Two xamples mentioned earlier: #9 and 10 were the North Coast Hiawatha from 1971 to 1979, and at the very beginning #12 was assigned to the Oakland-San Diego run.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

29. Capitol Limited

Was there not a counterpart #30 for the CL?

Yes. I did mention I wasn't being thorough.

50-51. Cardinal (Running through Richmond, IA, and bypassing Indianapolis)

That was some bypass - to IOWA! :lol: (Or did you mean IN - Indiana?)

Doh.