Discussion of train names

[jphjaxfl]

Right before Amtrak started on May 1, 1971, there was a press release stating that Amtrak would be doing away with names for trains, rather just numbers. I was in college in the Louisville. Ky area. The Courier Journal had a picture of the Southwind crossing the Ohio River on the Pennsylvania Railroad Bridge in late April and it stated the train which was going to be the only train left in Louisville would be #15 and #16 which were the L&N numbers for the train. The names staid, but after a couple of years, the name was changed to the Floridian and in 1979 it was discontinued.

 

[railiner]

My favorite name:

Orient Express

Mystery, intrigue, luxury, exciting destinations

And Hercule Poirot!

I like this “Orient” train, better…

https://streamlinermemories.info/?p=3550

 

[railiner]

And speaking of names with “exotic” destinations, how about this one?

https://www.american-rails.com/panama.html

 

[Willbridge]

One good reason for naming trains or naming corridor services is that if the railway doesn't do it, the employees or public will. And the name may not be complimentary.

That said, there are lots of examples of name changes that borrowed or reshaped names. For example, the Orient Express spawned the Direct-Orient and the Balt-Orient. And the glamor/glamour train of the novels and movies was the Direct-Orient.

I included Pioneer Limited on a list of possible names for the new Seattle<>Portland<>Boise<>Salt Lake City train in 1976, thinking that the previous user, the Milwaukee Road, had other things on its mind. Someone at Amtrak chose Pioneer and the name has outlasted the train.

 

[zephyr17]

That said, Amtrak did keep most named trains on their traditional routes.

Except when Santa Fe wouldn't let them.

After Santa Fe pulled permission to use their trademarked "Chief" names due to poor service quality on 3&4, Amtrak renamed it to Southwest Limited, a similar name to NYC's NY-St Louis Southwestern Limited competing with Pennsy's Spirit of St Louis that kicked off this discussion, and the exact name of a Milwaukee Road Minneapolis-KC train. While Santa Fe restored Amtrak's use of their trademarked Chief names after Superliners were introduced (about 1983, IIRC) Amtrak never did go back to the traditional names. A good thing, calling the current iteration of 3&4 the Super Chief or even just the Chief would have me vomiting for about a week straight.

 

[railiner]

Except when Santa Fe wouldn't let them.

After Santa Fe pulled permission to use their trademarked "Chief" names due to poor service quality on 3&4, Amtrak renamed it to Southwest Limited, a similar name to NYC's NY-St Louis Southwestern Limited competing with Pennsy's Spirit of St Louis that kicked off this discussion, and the exact name of a Milwaukee Road Minneapolis-KC train. While Santa Fe restored Amtrak's use of their trademarked Chief names after Superliners were introduced (about 1983, IIRC) Amtrak never did go back to the traditional names. A good thing, calling the current iteration of 3&4 the Super Chief or even just the Chief would have me vomiting for about a week straight.

Yeah...Santa Fe CEO John Shedd Reed, took a very strong interest in Amtrak's operation of their former pride and joy. He was one of two railroad execs that reluctantly handed their passenger service to Amtrak, due to stockholder pressure. The other was SCL's William T. Rice.
Besides renaming the Super Chief the Southwest Limited, Amtrak renamed the Texas Chief the Lone Star, until it was canceled.

 

[MccfamschoolMom]

My favorite name:

Orient Express

Mystery, intrigue, luxury, exciting destinations

And Hercule Poirot!

My kids just attended a dinner-theater "dinner and a mystery" performance of Murder on the Orient Express with their godmother this weekend!

 

[Palmland]

Certainly one of the all time great names was the ‘20 Century Limited’. For me it just symbolizes a classic streamliner with impeccable service and superb equipment especially when it ran with steam power and the 1938 version. North by Northwest helped immortalize it. I still remember hearing it had been downgraded to a utilitarian train from the owner of the Colorado RR museum in Golden around 1967?

Some would argue that in those later years the Broadway Ltd was the superior train as it retained its all Pullman status with observation until the late 60’s. I still think Amtrak should have used that route (at least the eastern portion) for its best east coast to Chicago train.

 

[Joe from PA]

This 1941 movie showed the streamlined steam running, as well as interior shots. However, stupid plot. See it on Youtube.

 

[Bfputtzman]

Agreed. In turnabout is fair play, Amtrak for a time, rerouted its Broadway Limited (former PRR) over the former B&O between Pittsburgh and Chicago, as well as running the Capitol Limited (former B&O) over the former PRR and NYC between Pittsburgh and Chicago.
They ran the Empire Builder over the former Milwaukee between St. Paul and Chicago, as well as the North Coast Hiawatha over that and the former NP between St. Paul and Spokane. The Silver Meteor, an original SAL train, was routed over the former ACL, Richmond to Savannah....



That said, Amtrak did keep most named trains on their traditional routes.

Correct me if I’m wrong but North Coast Hiawatha is an amalgamation of North Coast Limited (former NP) and Hiawatha (former Milwaukee), so that would fit the combined route it ran, no? To your point, the Empire Builder still runs a “non James J. Hill route” (the namesake Empire Builder) between Chicago and St Paul, so perhaps if the North Coast Hiawatha is restored, it could displace the Empire Builder back to the BN MS River route between Chicago and St Paul, and Mr. Hill can stop turning in his grave!

 

[jis]

Correct me if I’m wrong but North Coast Hiawatha is an amalgamation of North Coast Limited (former NP) and Hiawatha (former Milwaukee), so that would fit the combined route it ran, no? To your point, the Empire Builder still runs a “non James J. Hill route” (the namesake Empire Builder) between Chicago and St Paul, so perhaps if the North Coast Hiawatha is restored, it could displace the Empire Builder back to the BN MS River route between Chicago and St Paul, and Mr. Hill can stop turning in his grave!

There is a reason that Amtrak never ran its Empire Builder on BN between Chicago and the Twin City, and that reason has not gone away. So just for the sake of railfans feeling good the routing should not be changed now

 

[Willbridge]

Prior to WW1 the North Coast Limited ran on the C&NW via Milwaukee. The secondary NP transcon ran via the CB&Q. After WW1 the Soo Mountaineer to Canadian points ran on the C&NW between Chicago and St. Paul, even though the Soo had its own pieced-together route. There were and are a lot of ways of running CHI<>MSP.

 

[Willbridge]

I found this 1929 ad which shows the NCL brought into the Hill lines fold. The Black Hawk was their rival to the Milwaukee Road's Pioneer Limited. It was a victim of Menk's cuts in 1969 or 1970, leaving the Western Star and Mainstreeter with timetable dead-ends.

 

[railiner]

Another clever train name, was the “Zephyr Rocket”, which was a jointly operated train between St. Louis, Cedar Rapids, and Minneapolis-St. Paul, by the Burlington (“Way of the Zephyr’s”), and the Rock Island (“Route of the Rocket’s”)…

 

[cirdan]

I found this 1929 ad which shows the NCL brought into the Hill lines fold. The Black Hawk was their rival to the Milwaukee Road's Pioneer Limited. It was a victim of Menk's cuts in 1969 or 1970, leaving the Western Star and Mainstreeter with timetable dead-ends.

View attachment 29957

That schedule seems to have trains that run in bundles (once 15 minutes apart and even once departing at exactly the same time but arriving at different times) and then bigger gaps in between.

I wonder what the story is with that?

 

[jis]

That schedule seems to have trains that run in bundles (once 15 minutes apart and even once departing at exactly the same time but arriving at different times) and then bigger gaps in between.

I wonder what the story is with that?

My suspicion is that the Empire Builder and the North Coast Limited operated as a single train to St. Paul and then was split there to become two separate trains.

Railroads often try to operate multiple trains of same speed profile in flights in mixed traffic territory as that is less disruptive to the overall operation.

 

[railiner]

That schedule seems to have trains that run in bundles (once 15 minutes apart and even once departing at exactly the same time but arriving at different times) and then bigger gaps in between.

I wonder what the story is with that?

The North Coast Limited and the Empire Builder ran combined Chicago to St.Paul, most of the time. Later, the Afternoon Zephyr (or Morning Zephyr (eastward) was also in that combination. They were separated during peak times.

 

[Siegmund]

The Black Hawk was their rival to the Milwaukee Road's Pioneer Limited. It was a victim of Menk's cuts in 1969 or 1970, leaving the Western Star and Mainstreeter with timetable dead-ends.

The Black Hawk still shows in the November 1969 Official Guide.
The spring 1970 BN timetable advertises a connection to the Pioneer Limited (but no mention of any assistance getting the Milwaukee station to catch it.)

 

[railiner]

The Black Hawk still shows in the November 1969 Official Guide.
The spring 1970 BN timetable advertises a connection to the Pioneer Limited (but no mention of any assistance getting the Milwaukee station to catch it.)

Couldn't they connect in St. Paul? Not sure, but didn't all the roads use St. Paul Union Station? IIRC, it was Minneapolis where there were different stations...again not sure...strictly relying on my rusty memory...

 

[Bob Dylan]

My suspicion is that the Empire builder and the North Coast Limited operated as a single train to St. Paul and then was split there to become two separate trains.

Railroads often try to operate multiple trains of same speed profile in flights in mixed traffic territory as that is less disruptive to the overall operation.

Santa Fe ran the All Pullman Super Chief and the all Coach Streamliner El Capitan( where the Father of the Superliners first appeared) on almost Identical Schedules between LAX and CHI until Coaches were attached to the Super Chief consist.

 

[uncleboots]

Another clever train name, was the “Zephyr Rocket”, which was a jointly operated train between St. Louis, Cedar Rapids, and Minneapolis-St. Paul, by the Burlington (“Way of the Zephyr’s”), and the Rock Island (“Route of the Rocket’s”)…

The Zephyr Rocket stopped in my college town, Canton, Mo. It was discontinued 7 years before I entered college so I never got a chance to ride it. I did get the chance to ride the St. Louis to West Quincy Mo portion of the former route on a private excursion. I also go a chance to meet a gentleman from Hannibal Mo who was a Conductor on the Zephyr Rocket from the Hannibal to Burlington Iowa portion of the route. The train ran over CB&Q trackage from St Louis to Burlington and Rock Island trackage from Burlington to the Twin Cities. They would use Burlington equipment one day and Rock Island the next.

 

[Willbridge]

My suspicion is that the Empire Builder and the North Coast Limited operated as a single train to St. Paul and then was split there to become two separate trains.

Railroads often try to operate multiple trains of same speed profile in flights in mixed traffic territory as that is less disruptive to the overall operation.

The other reason for bunching in the "golden" years was the pattern of connections. Almost every Eastern line had arrivals in Chicago stations in the morning. By the time waves of travelers got between stations the 10:45 a.m. Comet and 11:00 a.m. Oriental Limited would be ready for boarding.

Taking a look at the total runtimes, we can also get an idea of how startling the streamliners seemed only a decade after the schedule above was considered to be good service. My dad recalls walking through the display train of the all-new (heavyweight) 1928 Portland Rose when he was five years old. By the time he was in high school the streamliner age had begun.

 

[jpakala]

I rode the Zephyr Rocket twice, once from the Twin Cities to Cedar Falls, IA and once from southern MN (Albert Lea probably) to Cedar Falls. We were in coach but peeked into the Pullman and saw the 6 sections at that end of the car. When the NRHS met in Cedar Rapids some years ago I rode their fine train from Cedar Falls up to Manly and back. Last week I had a nostalgic visit to the line through Cedar Falls, a big curve across streets and blocks of backyards of homes, then down the center of a street, past the depot which had become a bank and now is something else, and then a look at the empty tracks yard where the line ends rather than continuing to Waterloo.

 

[MARC Rider]

At one time, most if not all of the regional trains around the country had individual names...

Well, yeah, back in the day, almost every train running up and down the NEC, except for the commuter runs and a few locals had names. I was a little miffed when they started calling them all either "Northeast Direct" or "Metroliner" (Now "Northeast Regional" and Acela"). But then I realized, I I really didn't care whether I was riding the "Senator" or "Morning Congressional" or "Patriot" or whatever when I was taking a ride to New York. All of these trains are really interchangeable; you pick the one you want to ride based in its schedule. They're all "Northeast Regional," which is basically 6 Amfleet I coaches, a cafe car, and a business class car. The only difference is the schedule, so it makes sense to give the service the one name rather than naming individual trains.

There may have been a time in the PRR days of yore when the names made sense -- the Congressionals offered more deluxe service than most of the other NEC trains, and the "Senator" was a through train from Washington to Boston, when most of the other trains just ran between Washington and New York, but these distinctions don't really hold anymore.

 

[mcropod]

My favorite name:

Orient Express

Mystery, intrigue, luxury, exciting destinations

And Hercule Poirot!

And the train which captured the imagination, for sure, but with the most misleading names ever assigned a train - it didn't get within cooee of the Orient, never leaving Europe, and initially disgorging its passengers to make the last leg into present day Istanbul by boat from Romania. Istanbul is - to be sure a city in Europe *and* Asia - but the railway station was absolutely in Europe and a long way away from the Orient.

Bit like us in Oz calling the Sydney-Perth train the Scandanavian rather than the Indian Pacific.

/pedant mode off.