Do we need increased security on Amtrak?

[CelticWhisper]

MSNBC is now discussing "Train Security" with a Texas Congressman that wants magnatometers and TSA @ Train Stations because "they might attack our trains like the guy in Europe!"

Brilliant!

Not that I really want to barf or anything, but do you have a link?

 

[C855B]

My answer? Please, no. We are descending into a police state as it is, and LD train travel is one of the few remaining respites from the intensity. The police activity alone at ABQ is enough to turn a relaxed cross-country cruise into an edgy, exhausting experience.

But it's also enormously impractical. Airport-style screening, security perimeters and all that other stuff is very, very expensive for low-density corridors. The cost of security would far outstrip the cost of running the trains. If we absolutely must lock things down that much, just call Amtrak "done" outside of the NEC and get the agony over with.

 

[jis]

In the context of the recent events in Belgium, I would think that issue of whether one is allowed to carry a firearm or two with ammo on a train with oneself, and if not how one goes about ascertaining that the ban is being honored should be a reasonable thing to discuss, while the broader issue of who can obtain guns under what circumstances etc. may be a bit out of scope.

When it comes to ensuring that bans are actually being adhered to, that is where security check at boarding becomes a relevant issue to discuss.

The point I was making, which people seem to have missed, is that it is not clear at the present time that there is sufficient universal threat present in the US to require actual security checks on train boarding. There is always some level of threat, The question is has it crossed a threshold requiring any overt action beyond what happens already? My position so far is that such is not required in the US yet. There could come a time when such maybe required, and we can cross the bridge when we get to that river.

Notwithstanding all that, the sort of ownership and use of guns we are talking of here is probably not too related to general level or permissiveness in gun laws, since after all this guy in Belgium managed to have all the firearms that he needed even though AFAIK Belgium.has one of the toughest gun laws in Europe.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Yep. The cost of security is very, very expensive in low density corridors. Yes, it would far outstrip the cost of running trains.

Uh, oh!

Don't tell Southwest Airlines... or anyone else who wants to do away with intercity rail travel!

Jis, I got your point. My point is that cost benefit analysis results are dependent on who is doing the analysis.

 

[andersone]

So with more than 500 Amtrak destinations we could employ 1,500 (or more) folks with countless dollars spent on gadgets (I prefer one metal detector per door please) and the infrastructure to support it. I have never ever felt threatened on an Amtrak train (can's say the same for a CTA "L" train ) and I can't the sarcasm font to work. It would be best spent on new rolling stock,,,,,

 

[jis]

Yep. The cost of security is very, very expensive in low density corridors. Yes, it would far outstrip the cost of running trains.

Uh, oh!

Don't tell Southwest Airlines... or anyone else who wants to do away with intercity rail travel!

Jis, I got your point. My point is that cost benefit analysis results are dependent on who is doing the analysis.

Yup, and most of the analysis done by the popular news channels are completely worthy of being ignored, since their primary optimization criterion is selling more news and has little to do with actual operational feasibility or convenience for anyone who is stuck with using the results of the analysis.

 

[Lonestar648]

The only added Security is to know if someone is tampering with the tracks, switches, signal lights, etc. More damage and loss of life could occur when a train is at max speed. Airport Security is for show to make the general public feel more secure and screen out the random crazies. A trained person can always find a way to accomplish their assigned task. No matter how much security you have, someone can find a weak point and exploit it.

Do not slow down the trains with screenings and random opening of your bags and the focus on the elderly.

 

[Bob Dylan]

MSNBC is now discussing "Train Security" with a Texas Congressman that wants magnatometers and TSA @ Train Stations because "they might attack our trains like the guy in Europe!"

Brilliant!

Not that I really want to barf or anything, but do you have a link?

Sorry, it was a "Live" interview with one of those "Small Government is Better except when it comes to Security and the Defense Dept." types who give the rest of the world the impression that all Americans are mindless sheep that agree with that hogwash!

 

[jebr]

The "gun control/guns on Amtrak" conversation has been moved to Random Discussions at this time. Please continue that discussion there.

This thread should be used for the broader "security on trains" topic/thread.

 

[zepherdude]

I hope not. I don't want more. i sure do not want TSA. Do not need armed agents patrolling with guns and looking mean and growly. Maybe undercover Train Marshalls onboard that we do not know.

 

[trainman74]

It's worth noting that numerous crazed gunmen shooting up schools, theaters, public squares, etc. haven't caused any increase in security to speak of anywhere in the US.

Major League Baseball began requiring all fans to go through metal detectors at all games in 2015. It wasn't in response to any previous baseball gun incident or any specific threat, and you can definitely argue that it's little more than security theater (the detectors are at a low sensitivity level) -- but it is an obvious recent security increase that comes to mind.

 

[Ryan]

I haven't been to an NFL game in a while, but I seem to recall that they've done something similar.

 

[SarahZ]

Wrigley does the completely useless "briefly shine a penlight in your bag" thing. I can fit so much crap in my bag, and they never shuffle it around to really check things out. I could probably bring a small child into the game with me and not get caught.

 

[niemi24s]

If airport style security does get mandated for Amtrak, the only practical way I can see it could be carried out would be to have a checkpoint or two on and part of every train, staffed by trained personnel who go along on the train all along its route. How else could it be accomplished for boardings at an unstaffed station in a remote area? Does the phrase "can of worms" come to mind?

 

[jis]

In India they first run you through a metal detector and then proceed to give you very thorough free massage anyway at the airports . Fortunately this hasn't come to trains yet except under very unusual high threat situations.

 

[BCL]

I was trying to find answers for some other topic, but I found this about the use of the shared Greyhound facilities in San Francisco that replaced the previous Ferry Building "station":

http://www.capitolcorridor.org/news/whats-new/upcoming-changes-san-francisco-bus-service-march-1-2015-schedule/

Security Check
Upon entering the facility, passengers must show their Amtrak train ticket or photo I.D. to the Greyhound Security Staff. Greyhound security will also inspect bags and wand passengers for metal contraband who enter the building. Please allow additional time arriving for this process. Capitol Corridor connecting buses will board at Bus Bays #7 and #8.

 

[eee]

Wrigley does the completely useless "briefly shine a penlight in your bag" thing. I can fit so much crap in my bag, and they never shuffle it around to really check things out. I could probably bring a small child into the game with me and not get caught.

MLB started requiring walk-thru metal detectors in all parks this season, but Wrigley was given a waiver (due to renovations) to continue the old security screenings. The walk-thru metal detectors will start there next year, I believe.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

If the NBA started stepping up security I probably wouldn't mind so long as they added enough personnel to keep the lines moving smoothly. Like other major sports venues it's a huge and obvious target that has a maximum of thirty possible locations less than a third of which are active at any one time. These locations can be custom modified for improved detection and prevention in ways that most train stations cannot. Meanwhile Amtrak has several hundred active loading and unloading locations on any given day with many thousands of miles of intermediate locations that are virtually impossible to secure sufficiently. In any case I think that whoever is changing the rules should allow the folks who attend the games or board the trains to vote on it first. If they want more security fine, if not then leave them alone. I'm not interested in giving a hypersensitive homeschooling housewife who never leaves her house an equal say in what the rest of us experience when we're out and about in our own country.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Very OT, but since we are talking about big event venues, Wolf Trap Center for the Preforming Arts, located here in Northern Virginia, allows one to bring one's own liquids, including beer and wine, to their big open air venue, The Filene Center. Makes a mockery of all the money grabbing professional sports teams and concert halls that have banned such 'contraband' like water in a sealed plastic bottle, in the name of security!

 

[Bob Dylan]

Speaking of Venues, I work part time Gigs @ the University of Texas Sporting Events , Football, Soccer,Track,Basketball, Volleyball, Concerts etc) and now that Texas is allowing Open Carry of Firearms on Campus by Licensed Owners, well be screening all entrants for contraband and WILL BE Allowed to tell them.they can't bring Guns inside UT Events.

They will also be selling alcohol inside the Stadium and Special Events Center so armed, certified LE will be beefed up to assist us!( UT Police, APD, DPS State Troopers,Sherrif and Constable Deputies,Capitol Police, Texas Rangers etc)

I look for the first few times to be a Clusterflubs!!! Ever tried to process a 100,000+ Fueled up Texax Football Fanatics and tell them they can't bring their guns to the game? Look for delayed kickoffs and hopefully no tragedies on the news about shootings in Austin!!!!

For the first time ever there will be No In and Out/ once you enter you're in fill you leave, then there is No Rentry!!

I also work the Formula One Race @ Circuit of the Americas in Oct where 100,000+ fans attend but Formula One has World Class Security ( its tighter than Washington!) so am not worried about that!

The Motorcycle Races and X Games as well as the Concerts there are another matter however! I'm considering not working them anymore since Guns will be allowed in the Parking Lots and Camping Area as well as the Concert Stages!

 

[Lonestar648]

The logistics of screening EVERY person entering NYP, CUS, LAX without adding significant delays to everyone's commute is impossible. Airports tell you to arrive 2 hours before departure, so are people going to leave work 2 hours early to catch a train back home? Are you going to install massive fences to keep the screened people separate from the non-screened people at the smaller stations? Does the average traveler want the increased ticket prices in order to pay for this "show" of security to make them feel better? Big question would be, the things that could cause major disruptions, etc. like bridges, tunnels, etc. being monitored 24x7? What the terrorist wants a big effect for the effort. Imagine blowing a bridge with a full train of passengers, causing hundred of casualties. That is where the security should be working on. I know that all the big stations already have 100's of cameras recording everything everyone does and police presence to spot the abnormal. Why make the Terrorists WIN by totally changing everything we do!!

 

[BCL]

Very OT, but since we are talking about big event venues, Wolf Trap Center for the Preforming Arts, located here in Northern Virginia, allows one to bring one's own liquids, including beer and wine, to their big open air venue, The Filene Center. Makes a mockery of all the money grabbing professional sports teams and concert halls that have banned such 'contraband' like water in a sealed plastic bottle, in the name of security!

Doesn't the National Park Service set the rules?

However, some of these rules are that certain beverages just aren't allowed in the seated area. I remember buying a bottled soda at Davies Symphony Hall in San Francisco during an intermission, but when I couldn't finish it, I wasn't even allowed to cap it and bring it in.

In the places I've been that even ban bringing in water, you can bring in an empty bottle and then fill it or ask for water from a concession stand. Kind of strange, but it's allowed.

I suppose if we're OT, then I remember bringing a beer to drink in the parking lot for Shoreline Amphitheater in Mountain View, CA. It was a 24 can of PBR that I bought at a supermarket for maybe $1.75. I was just sitting with the rear hatch open when a cop drove by and I instinctively just put it away (had no idea what the rules were). She came by, said she saw me putting it away, and that I needed to just pour it out and we'd be OK. The guy in the car next to me said that maybe I should have put it in a cup. When I got in the venue, they had identical 24 oz cans of PBR selling for $12.

When I got home I looked up what the rules were. The parking lot is technically Shoreline Park (a city park), and they allow alcohol, but not with 50 feet of a road or parking lot. Another thing is that it's right next to Google, but doesn't seem to have Google's free Mountain View WiFi.

 

[Alice]

I do not understand why anyone would want to routinely screen Amtrak passengers for guns or bombs. If a terrorist wanted dramatic news coverage (isn't that part of their point?), copy some old westerns and time the fireworks while the train is on a historic trestle or some such. As for individuals who go nuts and decide to take others with them in their suicide, locking down one location is just going to send them somewhere else. I suppose a certain amount of resources should go for the safety of the rest of us, but I can't help thinking it would be more effective to put those resources somewhere else, like treatment.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I can't help thinking it would be more effective to put those resources somewhere else, like treatment.

I don't think treatment is a goal our old testament judicial system takes very seriously. Better to sit and wait for something truly horrible to happen and then go straight into old school eye-for-an-eye vengeance mode. Thus we have an ever shrinking number of pre-disaster treatment options and an ever growing number of mandatory punishments.

 

[neroden]

I don't think treatment is a goal our old testament judicial system takes very seriously. Better to sit and wait for something truly horrible to happen and then go straight into old school eye-for-an-eye vengeance mode. Thus we have an ever shrinking number of pre-disaster treatment options and an ever growing number of mandatory punishments.

Maybe if we actually punished the people who started wars based on lies, violated the US constitution in order to spy on innocent people, trashed the financial system by defrauding millions of people out of their houses, etc., we might get somewhere. I think our judicial system has been operating more as a crony system than anything else lately...