Dual Mode usage vs. Electrification of freight railroads in the US - pros and cons

[cirdan]

traditional dual modes in a single carbody are a real mess and rightfully no one wants to deal with them.

There are quite a few successful applications of dual modes, including Amtrak's own.

 

[jis]

Here is a nice little video explaining many basic concepts in electrified railways...

 

[Touchdowntom9]

There are quite a few successful applications of dual modes, including Amtrak's own.

And Amtrak appears to be doubling down on it. NJ Transit as well (I wouldn't use NJ Transit as an example to stand behind though...)

 

[jis]

And Amtrak appears to be doubling down on it. NJ Transit as well (I wouldn't use NJ Transit as an example to stand behind though...)

Actually Amtrak in ALC42E is using an architecture that is very different from the ALP45DP. The entire HV electricals are in a different car which plugs into the Diesel-electric engine to provide an alternative power source, and a few more powered axles. This is distributed power, though not as distributed as in the Hitachi Class 8xx dual modes in Europe. In these there is no locomotive at all.

The problem of trying to stuff all the parts of a high power diesel prime mover and a high horsepower electrical HV in a single unit on 4 axles causes axle loads to be high which causes higher speed operations difficult and damages the track much more. That is what makes the NJT style single unit containing everything undesirable. the ALC42E method spreads out the weight and provides more axles to transmit the power to the track thus making it more track friendly and capable of higher speeds.

 

[GDRRiley]

There are quite a few successful applications of dual modes, including Amtrak's own.

I don't think I'd describe most of them as successful. They come with much higher upkeep and locos that try and fit it all in are a mess.

a unit like a stadler FLIRT does okay because from the start it was built to be an EMU which you could add a special car to which has an alternative power source be that hydrogen+battery, battery or Diesel or Diesel+battery

 

[Touchdowntom9]

Was thinking about Brightline earlier, and while I see it being very unlikely that Class I railroads electrify their entire networks in the future, I was curious to know if the FEC has considered electrifying their network given their partnership with Brightline.

From the FEC's perspective, if Brightline eventually uses their track up to Jacksonville, that means Brightline is operating on all the FEC trackage network. Converting to electric network makes much more sense to do it as a whole sale change vs a partial conversion, as it allows the FEC to dump their existing diesel loco fleet for cheaper and higher performance electric locos and doesn't create any network compatibility issues where some trains cant travel to some areas. Brightline would likely be willing to partner with them because it would cut their operating costs, improve train performance, and reduce maintainance expenses. And the cost associated with their fleet conversion can be mitigated as the existing BL locos would likely be nearing the end of their operating life, and if not, then they could purchase something similar to Amtrak's dual mode Venture cars (the ones with the catenary on top) and add them in as coaches to the existing fleet as stop gaps.

Either way, this sounds like something that would make sense in the future assuming Brightline's expansions across Florida prove successful, and having a partner in Brightline to split costs with on the project makes it much more palatable to the FEC. Realistically, I think it would be a fantastic case study for electrification because of the passenger/freight overlap and the self contained nature of the FEC network.

Curious to know if anyone would believe that the FEC would approach this differently compared to other freight railroads in the US.

 

[west point]

No!! FEC can operate the line with very few trains. Some sections as low as 2 - 3 Round trips some days. Roaming railfan videos show how long they are. Electrifications work best on mountainous sections not the flat FEC. That translates into Kilowatt hours needed per mile.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

No!! FEC can operate the line with very few trains. Some sections as low as 2 - 3 Round trips some days. Roaming railfan videos show how long they are. Electrifications work best on mountainous sections not the flat FEC. That translates into Kilowatt hours needed per mile.

Wouldn't that help reduce their operating costs?
And if the FEC wouldn't consider electrifying their network, why on earth would any freight railroad consider it? Because it seems like a lot of people on this site think class I networks should/will even though I think it very unlikely for it to happen given their scope

 

[DavidSh]

How do electrified freight lines handle customer sidings? Catenary all the way to the loading/unloading tracks? Separate diesel shunting engines? Dual-mode locomotives? Batteries?

 

[MARC Rider]

How do electrified freight lines handle customer sidings? Catenary all the way to the loading/unloading tracks? Separate diesel shunting engines? Dual-mode locomotives? Batteries?

Well, back in the days when freight on the NEC was pulled by electric locomotives, I recall seeing a lot of diesel switchers hanging around the yards as we passed by.

 

[GDRRiley]

How do electrified freight lines handle customer sidings? Catenary all the way to the loading/unloading tracks? Separate diesel shunting engines? Dual-mode locomotives? Batteries?

The old way is you'd have diesel do that kind of work but now there are 2 main options. Small diesel power plants on an otherwise electric loco for those moves or batteries. I suspect we will see most mainline US electric locos feature some batteries to move around yards and places where overhead loading is needed

 

[cirdan]

From the FEC's perspective, if Brightline eventually uses their track up to Jacksonville, that means Brightline is operating on all the FEC trackage network.

Is that really all of FEC's trackage? I thought they also had a branch or two, though I'm not sure how many trains go down those branches.

They would also need dual modes, because pure electrics wouldn't be able to go down industrial spurs or onto the docksides.

Furthermore, right now FEC uses more or less off-the-shelf diesel units that are pretty cost efficient due to the economy of scale with many other railroads having the same units. If they want dual mode electrics they would basically be going it alone with all the risks that entails.

I'm not saying it won't happen, but the economic argument would have to top further in favor of electrics before they seriously contemplated that.

 

[jis]

Is that really all of FEC's trackage? I thought they also had a branch or two, though I'm not sure how many trains go down those branches.

Frankly, I don;t see a deep connection between Brightline wanting to electrify to run their passenger service and FECR being required to run their freight on electric. They could do so if they choose. That does not mean they can get rid of all their diesels, and that will involve additional electrification beyond what Brightline needs since Brightline does not need electrification of freight yards and leads to them.

They would also need dual modes, because pure electrics wouldn't be able to go down industrial spurs or onto the docksides.

Or they could just keep a few diesels around to handle those instead of delving into the complexities of dual mode.

Furthermore, right now FECR uses more or less off-the-shelf diesel units that are pretty cost efficient due to the economy of scale with many other railroads having the same units. If they want dual mode electrics they would basically be going it alone with all the risks that entails.

They have no reason to go dual mode except if someone from AU becomes their boss Also FECR actually uses very significantly modified locomotives which allows them to use LNG delivered to the locomotives from tenders. The locomotive controls allow the Engineer to specify the mix of LNG and diesel that is fed to the engines.

I'm not saying it won't happen, but the economic argument would have to top further in favor of electrics before they seriously contemplated that.

Even if the mainline electrification happens it won't be a decision made by FECR alone. It will be a decision made by the Florida Dispatching Company (jointly owned by FECR and Brightline Florida) which maintains and operates the FECR and Brightline owned segments of railroad in Florida, based on requirements specified by their owners/customers. And just like Brightline does not provide any standard template for spreading passenger service all over the US, such an electrification will be a unique case providing no template for its spread elsewhere in the US.