East River Tunnels rehabilitation 2024-2027

[daybeers]

Today, Amtrak announced the award of the East River Tunnels Rehabilitation contract to a Skanska E-J ERT Joint Venture. AKA, start the timer to see if this will delay Penn Station Access. "Modifications to some LD services" means the combination CL/SS they've been working on, but I'm interested in what the State Supported changes are.

This work will involve demolishing the existing tunnel systems down to the concrete liner, followed by reconstructing and modernizing all tunnel systems, which include:

• Spot repair and patching of the concrete tunnel liner
• Reconstruction of the bench walls in a modern high-low configuration
• Conversion from ballasted track to a modern direct fixation track system with integrated drainage
• Installation of new, state-of-the-art fire and smoke detection systems
• Replacement and modernization of signal, traction power, standpipe and drainage systems

During the work, which is expected to last approximately three years, Amtrak plans to maintain the vast majority of service, with slight schedule changes for Northeast Regional and Acela trains, as well as modifications to some Long Distance and State Supported services. The project will also not result in a major disruption to LIRR or NJ TRANSIT service. Amtrak and the railroad partners are coordinating closely to mitigate service impacts and will provide detailed service information via numerous channels in the coming months.

Preparatory work is already underway in Sunnyside Yard, with major construction expected to begin in late 2024 and continue through 2027.

 

[PaTrainFan]

Project to cause major disruption to Hudson Valley services.

https://www.masstransitmag.com/rail...selaer-service-impacting-hudson-valley-riders

 

[PRR 60]

Project to cause major disruption to Hudson Valley services.

https://www.masstransitmag.com/rail...selaer-service-impacting-hudson-valley-riders

Not counting the Lake Shore, ALB-NYP goes from 12 weekday trains to 10. A disruption, but maybe not that major. By the way, kind of amused that an article in "Mass Transit Magazine" (from the Albany Times-Union) confuses NJ Transit with PATH.

Strauss said the new schedule is set to begin Nov. 11. And it appears it will have a heavier impact on the Hudson Valley than train services that run to places like Long Island or New Jersey on the Long Island Railroad or NJ Path system.

 

[jis]

Not counting the Lake Shore, ALB-NYP goes from 12 weekday trains to 10. A disruption, but maybe not that major. By the way, kind of amused that an article in "Mass Transit Magazine" (from the Albany Times-Union) confuses NJ Transit with PATH.

Why is Gary Prophet crying about Amtrak lengthening Empire Service trains? He needs to go and cry at the doorsteps of NYSDOT and NY Legislature to fund such and modify their contract with Amtrak to make it happen. In short the ball is more or less in their court, not Amtrak's. NYSDOT as it is, is ridiculously understaffed to manage the Empire Service adequately. That is what needs to be fixed. They are getting exactly what they are willing to pay for at this time. Compare New York's budget for supporting intercity service with that of California and it will become obvious why they have the level of service that they have, East River Tunnel related short term changes is but a Red Herring.

 

[Amtrak25]

There are things that Amtrak should have seriously considered, which is their responsibility, not DOT's:

1) Separate trains 63 and 69 once it arrives from SSY at around 645am doggy-style. Send 63 on its way at 7:15am. Send 69 straight out to the yard just west of Penn Station, then back in around 830am for its normal departure.
2) Negotiate better schedules with CP and CSX for 69 and 64 for less dwell time in Albany. They had to know for 6 months it was coming to this.
3) Top and tail the 2 cancelled Albany frequencies with P42's and run them Harmon - Albany. Thru ticket at Croton-Harmon to GCT with MN.
4) No separation of 64 and 68. I do not accept the notion they do not have East River tunnel slots at both 930pm and 1030pm, just 1030pm, when there are no LIRR trains and few if any NJT train using Line 1 & 2.
5) Run all 13 trains on Saturdays and Sundays. There are no LIRR trains using Line 1 & 2 and very few NJT trains running back and forth all day to and from Sunnsyide, and fewer Amtrak NEC trains.

The fact they made service virtually identical 7 days per week shows Amtrak service planning took an easy way out. I agree with ESPA they have put a disproportionate burden on the Empire Service because they can and they know the Hochul Administration will do nothing. Amtrak did what was easy and what they can get away with.

 

[PVD]

The yard West of Penn is a LIRR yard, its usage would likely be subject to whether the MTA felt it could accommodate, and there is a question as to whether the tracks specifically able to be used for the West Side routing can be reached to or from the yard. I don' know, but not likely. Also, the Amtrak trains only have power at one end, currently they don't allow 3rd rail ops from an unpowered cab afaik.

 

[Amtrak25]

The yard West of Penn is a LIRR yard, its usage would likely be subject to whether the MTA felt it could accommodate, and there is a question as to whether the tracks specifically able to be used for the West Side routing can be reached to or from the yard. I don' know, but not likely. Also, the Amtrak trains only have power at one end, currently they don't allow 3rd rail ops from an unpowered cab afaik.

LIRR West Side Yard is not at all what I am referring to, but the yard south of the tunnels and west of Penn Station, (I don't know the name or designation of it) . They do in fact stash NJT trains there.

 

[railiner]

The yard West of Penn is a LIRR yard, its usage would likely be subject to whether the MTA felt it could accommodate, and there is a question as to whether the tracks specifically able to be used for the West Side routing can be reached to or from the yard. I don' know, but not likely. Also, the Amtrak trains only have power at one end, currently they don't allow 3rd rail ops from an unpowered cab afaik.

Doesn’t Penn Station still have these yards shown in the diagram past the Diagonal platform?

https://www.google.com/search?q=pen...ppbHyQscOGM&vssid=_GLsPZ9X6M4qV5OMPoO3UmQw_40

 

[jis]

LIRR West Side Yard is not at all what I am referring to, but the yard south of the tunnels and west of Penn Station, (I don't know the name or designation of it) . They do in fact stash NJT trains there.

That would be the three track A Yard which would be accessible from the relevant platforms. There is also the 5 track E Yard with most tracks too short for today’s consists, that is accessible from Track 1 only with a single backup move. Access from anywhere else is complex involving at least two revrsals. NJT does store at least one set there from time to time. But that yard is of no use for consists to be used for Empire Service.

 

[PVD]

LIRR West Side Yard is not at all what I am referring to, but the yard south of the tunnels and west of Penn Station, (I don't know the name or designation of it) . They do in fact stash NJT trains there.

railiner also pointed that out the diagram that seems to show that some of that would reach a usable track/platform, provided the power situation were dealt with

edit thank you to "JIS" for clarifying

 

[Amtrak25]

Adirondack is 5 cars. NJT trains in NYPS under 6 cars is very rare, if ever.

 

[Maverickstation]

More news on service adjustments including the Adirondack.

https://www.wcax.com/2024/10/16/more-amtrak-delays-way-adirondack-line/

 

[fdaley]

Just learned about the Empire Service cutbacks while searching for holiday-season travel options. The plan that takes effect Nov. 11 leaves some ugly service gaps, particularly for evening departures from New York. The current 7:15p departure from NYP is advanced to 6:46p, and after that there's only one more departure -- 8:55p weekdays and 10:45p weekends (compared with current 7:15p, 8:55p, 10:45p weekdays and 7:15p, 9:15p, 11:35p weekends). For those headed from New York to Albany for the day, there will now be a three-hour gap northbound in the mornings (nothing departing NYP between 7:15a and 10:20a) and a three-hour gap returning in the late afternoon/evening (nothing departing ALB between 4:30p and 7:40p).

And the nearly 2-hour layover at Rensselaer for the northbound Adirondack -- and a 90-minute layover for riders on the eastbound Maple Leaf -- seem really poorly conceived. This is the kind of plan you might implement for an emergency situation lasting a week or two, not for a project that's supposed to go on for three years.

 

[daybeers]

Rumor is that the Empire Service fund of the NYSDOT is broke, so they just went with the cheapest option.

 

[Maverickstation]

Here are some updates on Empire Service reductions, related to the East River Tunnel rehab.

https://wnyt.com/top-stories/amtrak-cutting-trips-from-albany-to-nyc-next-month/

 

[Bostontoallpoints]

Here are some updates on Empire Service reductions, related to the East River Tunnel rehab.

https://wnyt.com/top-stories/amtrak-cutting-trips-from-albany-to-nyc-next-month/

"Amtrak will also be combining the Adirondack and the Maple Leaf trains between Albany and New York City as a part of these service reductions."

"In Albany, the northbound Adirondack will have an almost two-hour layover making trips to places like Saratoga and Schenectady longer. The southbound Maple Leaf will have around a 90-minute layover in Albany making trips longer from just not Schenectady but places like Amsterdam and Syracuse."

"Amtrak said these scheduled changes are temporary and will last for about the next three years."

Why not switch service to Grand Central?

 

[PVD]

I believe someone previously mentioned that the MTA did not make slots available.

 

[jis]

I believe someone previously mentioned that the MTA did not make slots available.

Also, for trains that do not terminate in Albany there is no easy way to get maintenance done on them since Sunnyside is hard to get to from Grand Central.

 

[daybeers]

Rumor is that the Empire Service fund of the NYSDOT is broke, so they just went with the cheapest option.

I believe this is a factor as well as expired qualifications to operate into GCT and the Park Avenue Tunnel rehabilitation work.

Infrastructure around the country has been (and still is) neglected for a long time and it's going to take a long time to catch up with the deferred maintenance. I still think it's too bad Empire Service riders are-regardless of the true underlying reasons-getting a much bigger hit to service than, say, LIRR riders, who enjoy exponentially more trains per day but are only having two trains diverted from NYP to GCM and minor time adjustments.

 

[MARC Rider]

I still think it's too bad Empire Service riders are-regardless of the true underlying reasons-getting a much bigger hit to service than, say, LIRR riders, who enjoy exponentially more trains per day but are only having two trains diverted from NYP to GCM and minor time adjustments.

I would suspect that LIRR probably has a higher priority for those running the state for a number of reasons. More LIRR riders than Empire service riders; if LIRR capacity is restricted, more cars on the roads and more traffic congestion, which is pretty bad already; The current state administration gets most of its political support from the NY metro area, so, of course Metro North and LIRR are going to have a higher priority than serving upstate beyond Albany.

And note that when they were doing the Spuyten Duyvill bridge work and ran Amtrak from Grand Central, all of the trains terminated in Albany. If you wanted the Lakeshore Limited, Maple Leaf, or Adirondack, you had to change trains. At least with this plan, there's still through service.

 

[Amtrak25]

Rumor is that the Empire Service fund of the NYSDOT is broke, so they just went with the cheapest option.

I believe that one, and this is about not letting a crisis go to waste. They are not interested in constructive solutions, but only in cop outs. The Empire Corridor is about to become largely inaccessible, expensive, irrelevant, novelty transportation, and DOT is fine with it. They are not really interested in anything but spending $2 Billion in I-81 around Syracuse.

I do not accept the notion that they can't run the Maple Leaf to Sunnyside at 930pm. If anything, it can sit in NYPS for 68 to arrive behind it and couple them togthether. Neither NJT nor LIRR are using tunnel lines 1 & 2 much at all at that hour. Rush hour had been over with for 2 hours.

For the 2 Albany frequencies, run them to Harmon, and have thru ticketing with MN to and from GCT.

I do not think the Adirondack will survive 42 months of this nonsense, and Toronto - New York patronage will wither to nothing. There are plenty of bus alternatives, especially to Montreal.

They can also have the early morning 5:05am from Albany relay right back as 69, and 68 can be the 11pm train back to Albany. That itself saves an Albany frequency. That is similar to the Borealis operation at Chicago become Hiawatha frequencies.

Some topping and tailing of trains would be necessary. The 280 series trains can use P42's west of Albany to conserve P32DM's.

 

[Amtrak25]

And note that when they were doing the Spuyten Duyvill bridge work and ran Amtrak from Grand Central, all of the trains terminated in Albany. If you wanted the Lakeshore Limited, Maple Leaf, or Adirondack, you had to change trains. At least with this plan, there's still through service.

Summer 2018, there was no NY section to the Lake Shore Ltd. The Adirondack ran straight through both ways. The southbound Maple Leaf had a quick cross platform transfer at Albany to cycle train sets for maintenance. Adirondack and Maple Leaf trainsets swapped roles overnight in GCT. Consists were identical. No Amfleet-2 were used.

 

[railiner]

Why not switch service to Grand Central?

That might be better for some. but not all.
And it would probably cost a lot more, all things considered…

 

[daybeers]

I would suspect that LIRR probably has a higher priority for those running the state for a number of reasons. More LIRR riders than Empire service riders; if LIRR capacity is restricted, more cars on the roads and more traffic congestion, which is pretty bad already; The current state administration gets most of its political support from the NY metro area, so, of course Metro North and LIRR are going to have a higher priority than serving upstate beyond Albany.

And note that when they were doing the Spuyten Duyvill bridge work and ran Amtrak from Grand Central, all of the trains terminated in Albany. If you wanted the Lakeshore Limited, Maple Leaf, or Adirondack, you had to change trains. At least with this plan, there's still through service.

Yes, the NYC suburbs have always been treated better than Albany and upstate in general, mostly due to money and political capital. My point was that LIRR already gets many hundreds of trains, while upstate is saddled with short consists and frequency that doesn't even meet half the demand that's there. But as Amtrak25 said, DOT doesn't care. I would note DOT's direction in policy is ultimately led in by whoever is governor. Without getting too political, I would only say that the current one doesn't seem to have the best interests of the entire NYS population overall in the front of their mind.

I do not think the Adirondack will survive 42 months of this nonsense, and Toronto - New York patronage will wither to nothing. There are plenty of bus alternatives, especially to Montreal.

Not to mention the vast majority of NYC-Canada travelers are flying for about as much as the Amtrak fare in less than a tenth of the travel time. Logistically it doesn't make sense for most people, and there's no sleeper or observation car to entice those leisure/disposable income travelers like on the western LD trains.

 

[Bostontoallpoints]

That might be better for some. but not all.
And it would probably cost a lot more, all things considered…

What would be the extra costs? Track fees at Grand Central? I think it is still a better alternative than no train.