EB - Lateness Problems This Summer

[Mackensen]

There are two issues here; and they're tricky. The first is how Amtrak communicates with individual passengers; the second with the general public. On the first score I think Amtrak actually does a pretty good job, and that's based on personal experience. When my return trip on the Empire Builder got canceled in January 2009 because of mudslides, Amtrak called me directly. When my wife's return trip on the Vermonter last month was going to be six hours late because of heat-related slow orders, Amtrak called me the night before (my number was on the reservation). Note that because the Vemonter was going to be so late Amtrak issued a full refund the day of travel. When there have been schedule changes that aren't in the "breaking news" category I've gotten emails. I think that's good customer service and that's as good--or better--than what the airlines do. Again, as an intercity railroad Amtrak faces special challenges that the airlines don't. Let's say I'm to board in Minot, heading east to Chicago. The train is in Havre. It's late. It's probably going to be late in Minot, though it'll make some time up. It's still possible, say better than 50% chance, that it'll be on-time in Chicago. Does Amtrak alert anyone?

I work for a non-profit. We're very careful about messaging our members. Too much communication and you just get tuned out (to say nothing of the stress on the staff preparing those communications). Amtrak's got a decent failsafe in the online status site, or the toll-free number. On long-distance trips I check those against our actual progress and I've found that they're often quite accurate. Where Amtrak might improve, I think, is to create an alert system, letting you know when estimates change +/- 10-15 minutes or more. I don't know what that infrastructure would cost.

The second issue is service alerts. I too think Amtrak is stingy about issuing them, but I think it stems from the concerns I've outlined above. Service alerts make sense to me if there's a widespread system problem affecting lots of people. A delay on a single LD train to my mind doesn't qualify. The NEC being closed by a storm--absolutely, and I was surprised how long it look.

 

[albertaborn]

'i ride amtrak because i love trains. i cannot imagine riding amtrak if i actually had some place i needed to be" - and that's the biggie in this discussion/debate.

I've been reading these EB posts with interest, having had a booking to ride EB from SBY to MOT in September. Did our first train trip last August from SBY to OLY - after months of watching the chaos caused by the flooding and enjoying this forum we had moments of wondering if we'd made the right choice. Fortunately all went well, we made our SEA connection and loved the train. This year we decided to visit South Dakota and rather than drive all the way we decided we'd take the EB as far as MOT, rent a car and drive from there, strictly for the train experience. Made our trip a bit more expensive but we felt the fun of taking the train was worth the extra cost . Our schedule isn't tight, but there are car rental and hotel reservations, allowing some leeway but not a full day or two change in schedule. Pretty hard to travel without a knowing you have a place to sleep and a car the next day when you get there. We are aware of issues that can slow a train down and did take that into consideration, but felt we were good with a few hours allowance for lateness.

After watching what's been happening for the last 2 months we started rethinking our plans. The whole idea of taking the train was strictly for fun, and we know it could be an entire different ball game come September, EB could be running right on schedule, but we've decided to cancel our reservations and drive the entire route. Since we have to drive 1 1/2 hours to get to SBY and then would be checking out of our hotel on departure day in MOT, if EB is running like it is now we're looking at what could be long waits at the stations - and without transportation in MOT. Don't want to start or end what should be a fun trip with that frustration, hence our decision.

Some diehard train buffs are going to say we're probably not people who should travel by train if we can't accept that as part of it, but I wanted to express our view on this. We're really disappointed we won't be boarding the train, but are confident we did the prudent thing to make our trip as enjoyable as possible. The train part is more to us than getting from A to B, but it's not the be-all and end-all for us, and that's the difference. Also, we don't care who's "fault" it is, Amtrak, BNSF, weather - bottom line, this particular route seems doomed to delays and sad to say, we won't be considering trying again until SOMEONE SOMEWHERE gets it sorted out.

If you have the time and money to ride just for the love of it

 

[Donctor]

But #7 turns into #8, so if it's late, then #8 will be late®

Well that could be true.

No, it is true. 7 has six hours to turn into 8, while 8 has 22 hours to turn into 7. Hmm... which one has a better chance of leaving on time? This is a hard one...

Also, if it doesn't make the 22 hour turn, there is typically other equipment that can be cobbled together to make a set.

 

[albertaborn]

'i ride amtrak because i love trains. i cannot imagine riding amtrak if i actually had some place i needed to be" - and that's the biggie in this discussion/debate.

I've been reading these EB posts with interest, having had a booking to ride EB from SBY to MOT in September. Did our first train trip last August from SBY to OLY - after months of watching the chaos caused by the flooding and enjoying this forum we had moments of wondering if we'd made the right choice. Fortunately all went well, we made our SEA connection and loved the train. This year we decided to visit South Dakota and rather than drive all the way we decided we'd take the EB as far as MOT, rent a car and drive from there, strictly to include the train experience. Our schedule isn't tight, but there are car rental and hotel reservations, allowing some leeway but not a full day or two change in schedule. Pretty hard to travel without a knowing you have a place to sleep and a car the next day when you get there.We are aware of issues that can slow a train but felt we were good with plans to pick up the car the morning after arrival.

After watching what's been happening for the last 2 months we started rethinking our plans. The whole idea of taking the train was strictly for fun, and we know it could be an entire different ball game come September, EB could be running right on schedule, but we've decided to cancel our reservations and drive the entire route. Since we have to drive 1 1/2 hours to get to SBY and would be checking out of our hotel on departure day in MOT, if EB is running like it is now we're looking at what could be long waits at the stations - and without transportation in MOT. Don't want to start or end what should be a fun trip with that frustration, hence our decision.

Some diehard train buffs are going to say we're probably not people who should travel by train if we can't accept that as part of it, but I wanted to express our view on this. We're really disappointed we won't be boarding the train, but are confident we did the prudent thing to make our trip as enjoyable as possible. The train part is more to us than getting from A to B, but it's not the be-all and end-all for us, and that's the difference. Also, we don't care who's "fault" it is, Amtrak, BNSF, weather - bottom line, this particular route seems doomed to delays and sad to say, we won't be considering trying again until SOMEONE SOMEWHERE gets it sorted out.

If you have the time and money to ride just for the love of trains I envy you, but you need to realize not many of us are that lucky.

 

[Mackensen]

Some diehard train buffs are going to say we're probably not people who should travel by train if we can't accept that as part of it, but I wanted to express our view on this. We're really disappointed we won't be boarding the train, but are confident we did the prudent thing to make our trip as enjoyable as possible. The train part is more to us than getting from A to B, but it's not the be-all and end-all for us, and that's the difference. Also, we don't care who's "fault" it is, Amtrak, BNSF, weather - bottom line, this particular route seems doomed to delays and sad to say, we won't be considering trying again until SOMEONE SOMEWHERE gets it sorted out.

If you have the time and money to ride just for the love of trains I envy you, but you need to realize not many of us are that lucky.

I would say that you should travel by whatever means seem most appropriate. However, I do think you should be more concerned about whose fault it is, because most of things you enumerated are temporary phenomenon. Record heat has caused numerous slow orders, and possibly track kinks which led to derailments. This is not likely to be the case in September. If I were you I would have waited until mid-August or so to see whether things improved. Amtrak would still give you a full refund if you cancelled then.

 

[amamba]

Well reading this thread is making me very happy that I gave myself an extra day in CHI on my EB/LSL trip next week. I am on the EB from SEA to CHI on Monday, arrive in CHi on Wednesday, and then not taking the LSL until Thursday.

 

[RRUserious]

Well reading this thread is making me very happy that I gave myself an extra day in CHI on my EB/LSL trip next week. I am on the EB from SEA to CHI on Monday, arrive in CHi on Wednesday, and then not taking the LSL until Thursday.

Should work out perfect for you.

 

[OBS]

Well reading this thread is making me very happy that I gave myself an extra day in CHI on my EB/LSL trip next week. I am on the EB from SEA to CHI on Monday, arrive in CHi on Wednesday, and then not taking the LSL until Thursday.

Of course that means that EB will be 15 min. early into Chi on Wednesday...LOL

 

[albertaborn]

Some diehard train buffs are going to say we're probably not people who should travel by train if we can't accept that as part of it, but I wanted to express our view on this. We're really disappointed we won't be boarding the train, but are confident we did the prudent thing to make our trip as enjoyable as possible. The train part is more to us than getting from A to B, but it's not the be-all and end-all for us, and that's the difference. Also, we don't care who's "fault" it is, Amtrak, BNSF, weather - bottom line, this particular route seems doomed to delays and sad to say, we won't be considering trying again until SOMEONE SOMEWHERE gets it sorted out.

If you have the time and money to ride just for the love of trains I envy you, but you need to realize not many of us are that lucky.

I would say that you should travel by whatever means seem most appropriate. However, I do think you should be more concerned about whose fault it is, because most of things you enumerated are temporary phenomenon. Record heat has caused numerous slow orders, and possibly track kinks which led to derailments. This is not likely to be the case in September. If I were you I would have waited until mid-August or so to see whether things improved. Amtrak would still give you a full refund if you cancelled then.

Those ' temporary phenomenon' have been pretty constant for the last two months, and changing plans requires making changes that unfortunately can't wait until the last minute. Going into this we were aware that glitches can occur with rail travel but we certainly didn't expect to see such a long period of constant lateness. Yes, the situation could improve greatly by Sept. but also may not, and riding the train was only part of our trip. If it was going to be a negative experience we decided we'd rather not mar the memory of our great EB experience last year with a bad one this year.

I just get as bit annoyed when the diehards get so defensive when someone criticizes the level of service as far as keeping to the schedule. I understand loving trains to the point where you can overlook and even enjoy the glitches, but that's not how many see it. Sure, there are legitimate reasons for delays, but bottom line, 2 months of these 'phenomenon' is reaching the point of them not being phenomenon but more a problem that needs attention. I know there are many hindrances to finding a solution - money being major, but I don't think Amtrak's public perception is being helped any by the current stats of one of its major routes.

 

[Mackensen]

Some diehard train buffs are going to say we're probably not people who should travel by train if we can't accept that as part of it, but I wanted to express our view on this. We're really disappointed we won't be boarding the train, but are confident we did the prudent thing to make our trip as enjoyable as possible. The train part is more to us than getting from A to B, but it's not the be-all and end-all for us, and that's the difference. Also, we don't care who's "fault" it is, Amtrak, BNSF, weather - bottom line, this particular route seems doomed to delays and sad to say, we won't be considering trying again until SOMEONE SOMEWHERE gets it sorted out.

If you have the time and money to ride just for the love of trains I envy you, but you need to realize not many of us are that lucky.

I would say that you should travel by whatever means seem most appropriate. However, I do think you should be more concerned about whose fault it is, because most of things you enumerated are temporary phenomenon. Record heat has caused numerous slow orders, and possibly track kinks which led to derailments. This is not likely to be the case in September. If I were you I would have waited until mid-August or so to see whether things improved. Amtrak would still give you a full refund if you cancelled then.

Those ' temporary phenomenon' have been pretty constant for the last two months, and changing plans requires making changes that unfortunately can't wait until the last minute. Going into this we were aware that glitches can occur with rail travel but we certainly didn't expect to see such a long period of constant lateness. Yes, the situation could improve greatly by Sept. but also may not, and riding the train was only part of our trip. If it was going to be a negative experience we decided we'd rather not mar the memory of our great EB experience last year with a bad one this year.

I just get as bit annoyed when the diehards get so defensive when someone criticizes the level of service as far as keeping to the schedule. I understand loving trains to the point where you can overlook and even enjoy the glitches, but that's not how many see it. Sure, there are legitimate reasons for delays, but bottom line, 2+ months of these 'phenomenon' is reaching the point of them not being phenomenon but more a problem that needs attention. I know there are many hindrances to finding a solution - money being major, but I don't think Amtrak's public perception is being helped any by the current stats of one of its major routes.

Wait, two months? Now I'm confused. Two months ago #8 ran 1-2 two hours late, at worst. 40 minutes late into Chicago was common in May. I though we were talking about 4+ hours, which is just over the last week or two. There's also the couple days about a month ago (?) when a flood caused significant delays. That's the delay that RRUSerious experienced and it left a really bad taste in his mouth.

 

[EB_OBS]

Well, #28 had to be annulled and sent back to Portland tonight before it ever reached Pasco, WA. What was a flash flood over the rails and reportedly two separate mud slides, compounded by no buses available to provide alternate transport on into Spokane.

 

[NY Penn]

So where did the passengers go? Through Portland and Seattle and then onto #8?

 

[EB_OBS]

So where did the passengers go? Through Portland and Seattle and then onto #8?

The train was completely "Annulled w/ NO alternate transportation." The train and passengers returned to Portland.

 

[Nathanael]

I've had a 3 hour flight turn into an 8 hour flight once! We ate dinner (this was back in the "good old days" when airlines served dinner), saw a movie and about 1/2 of a second movie - and this all happened prior to takeoff in Chicago!

I had a flight from JFK (NY) to Heathrow (London) delayed by *eight hours* taking off due to "traffic congestion" in the air over NYC. The plane had to leave the departure queue to refuel because it had used so much fuel taxiing. We had left a huge amount of time for our connecting flight from Heathrow, but ended up staying overnight in London.

On another trip fiancee was delayed by *16 hours* when America West's reservations system melted down. (Coming on a differnt route on the same day, I bought a ticket from another airline at great expense; had I stayed on America West I wouldn't have even left on the scheduled day of departure.)

Neither of those even involved weather-related disruptions.

Neither did the habitual cancellation by US Airways of flights from Philadelphia to Ithaca, sometimes simply because they decided that they had an unprofitable number of passengers scheduled to travel on the plane, sometimes because of equipment shortage or lack of pilots; many are the times my family has rented a car for a one-way drive rather than wait to see how long it would take US Airways to decide to actually accomodate us. (Several times, I arrived home before the first non-annulled flight *left* Philadelphia.)

I know some friends who slept overnight in a closed and locked airport in Florida while waiting to get a replacement flight -- they were not offered hotel rooms.

Never schedule anything important on the scheduled day of arrival. Arriving a day late is par for the course in a long-distance trip, whether by rail, air, or road. (Car breakdowns?...)

Amtrak's delays are more common, and Amtrak really should keep to schedule better when there aren't weather- and freight-related disruptions, but I've found that Amtrak are much better behaved when delays happen than the airlines and airports in the US are. (BA treated us very decently at Heathrow, though.) Though to be fair, I approached Amtrak with the mentality which came from my airline experiences, and when the train was bustituted from MSP to CHI during the floods a few years ago which took out both the usual train route and all three possible detour routes, I got the ticket refunded and made a one-way car rental. (Luckily the roads in Wisconsin, which had been closed for most of my time in MSP, had just reopened. The gas stations in Wisconsin were still all closed.)

When there are severe weather disruptions in an area, your best bet is to cancel any plans to visit that area *at all*.

As for albertaborn, something confuses me about that comment: if you're scheduled to rent a car on the morning after arrival, and you arrive late, you can tell the rental car company to hold it for you. It's only if you arrive early that you wouldn't have transportation....

 

[amamba]

So where did the passengers go? Through Portland and Seattle and then onto #8?

What happened to the rest of 8 yesterday? Did it continue ont he way? It is listed as a service disruption at amtrak.com and on status maps.

 

[Anderson]

1) Amtrak and the freights really need to come to a better mechanism for making a "temporary schedule" over known problematic track due to work or persistent seasonal conditions that can be predicted. A good example of them pulling this together was when CSX was doing work in VA and they were able to shuffle trains on the NPN-RVR section. In a lot of cases, though, even where an outright schedule change is merited for several weeks (for example, a slow order pad-out due to constant heat-related slow orders), this doesn't happen. To be fair, I'm not thinking of incessant, generic delays (see also: Sunset Limited), but I am thinking of the tendency for western trains' timekeeping to more or less go to hell in the summertime.*

2) Failing that, Amtrak might want to consider some sort of "predicted arrival time" for cases like the above. Look, if they /know/ the train will likely be late for a few weeks, at least communicate that to passengers with their projected arrival time so they can plan. Even if the timetable isn't officially altered (thus allowing early departures if things run "normally"), that's still something.

3) Amtrak is very good at handling super-late trains as far as passenger service...at least, as a rule. When my Chief was late last year, I got an equivalent voucher without asking for it. There are meltdowns here, yes, but I find them to be the exception rather than the rule

4) Finally, when I'm traveling, I don't assume an on-time train unless I'm in a specific situation where reliability is more predictable (i.e. the extended NEC). I'm prepared to be surprised about where I wake up...I've expected to wake up in Indiana and instead seen Cleveland outside my window on the LSL. It happens, it goes with the territory, and I've adapted to it. There are some routes that are more reliable than others, but especially the "big four" western trains simply can't be relied upon to be on time because of the distances they cover and so forth.

*If nothing else, planning a modified schedule for late June-August based on how the summer is "sorting out" might be worthwhile. There seems to be a tendency for summers, at least as of late, to get into whatever climactic pattern they feel like and then to stay that way.

 

[NW cannonball]

So where did the passengers go? Through Portland and Seattle and then onto #8?

What happened to the rest of 8 yesterday? Did it continue ont he way? It is listed as a service disruption at amtrak.com and on status maps.

It is possible that the 8(14) was annulled east of Spokane because it might have been running short two cars and without the 28 section there wasn't enough train to run east from Spokane, much less take the passengers from 28 even if there had been busses available.

I say this because 7(12) was definitely missing two cars in the Seattle section when it departed MSP about 00:44 on 7/13. I watched it roll on to the main a mile east of MSP about 00:54, and there were only 4 superliners between the bag car and the SSL. One of the 4 was a dining car and one was a coach - the other two I'm not absolutely sure but probably transdorm and another coach.

This was the section that would normally turn in seattle and become 8(14). If there were no spare superliner sleeping cars at SEA on Saturday -- 8(14) might have been an abnormally short consist.

Possible scenario?

 

[NY Penn]

I doubt it - having some cars is always better than a cancelled train.

 

[EB_OBS]

I've worked all week, including Saturday morning and Sunday morning the 14th and 15th. There were no #7s that were short cars in the consist.

 

[EB_OBS]

So where did the passengers go? Through Portland and Seattle and then onto #8?

What happened to the rest of 8 yesterday? Did it continue ont he way? It is listed as a service disruption at amtrak.com and on status maps.

#28(14) was turned back to PDX due to the landslides and washout west of Pasco, WA. The train with passengers and crew was unable to get through and there were no buses available in addition to a section of highway 14 was also washed out. Passengers were returned to where they boarded #28 and unfortunately no alternate transportation was able to be provided. With the tracks closed #27 was terminated at SPK and the passengers were bused further west. The equipment was tacked on, in reverse, to #8 and returned mostly empty to Chicago.

#28(15) was to dead-head the train through the slide area and bus the passengers to PSC, unfortunately BNSF's original estimate of when the train could go through turned out to be way way off and the train was again turned back to PDX. The passengers had already been put on buses to Pasco but instead were brought to Spokane, where train #27 was terminated and the equipment put on in reverse onto #8 and sent east with all the passengers that arrived on the buses. We bought pizzas and fed everybody in the station and the train departed three hours late.

It's looking like tonight #28 will get through the slide area, most likely with delays but it's coming through with passengers aboard.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

So where did the passengers go? Through Portland and Seattle and then onto #8?

The train was completely "Annulled w/ NO alternate transportation." The train and passengers returned to Portland.

What exactly does this mean for the passengers? Will Amtrak put you up in a hotel? Do they provide any meal vouchers? Will they reschedule you on the first train or bus that can make it out? Or can they simply choose to hand your money back and wash their hands of any further responsibility?

 

[EB_OBS]

So where did the passengers go? Through Portland and Seattle and then onto #8?

The train was completely "Annulled w/ NO alternate transportation." The train and passengers returned to Portland.

What exactly does this mean for the passengers? Will Amtrak put you up in a hotel? Do they provide any meal vouchers? Will they reschedule you on the first train or bus that can make it out? Or can they simply choose to hand your money back and wash their hands of any further responsibility?

I'm sure this answer isn't going to please some of you and it's certainly not convenient for the displaced passengers, however, here it is;

Force Majeure Event

This information can be found under "Terms of Transportation" at the bottom of the page on the Amtrak website.

Obviously, anyone can then purchase a ticket on the next train if there is space available. In this particular instance, #28(15) was fully booked so an extra coach was added to accommodate any passengers from the train that returned to Portland with all the passengers which was #28(14). Unfortunately, if you previously had a sleeper, there were only two or three rooms still available on the 15th.

 

[amamba]

I'm on #8(16) and we got delayed about an hour outside of sEA bc of a suspicious package by the tracks. I will let you k ow in the morning when I wake up if #28 joins us in SPK. I hope to be asleep by then.

 

[EB_OBS]

I'm on #8(16) and we got delayed about an hour outside of sEA bc of a suspicious package by the tracks. I will let you k ow in the morning when I wake up if #28 joins us in SPK. I hope to be asleep by then.

#28 departed Wishram, WA at 8:36 PM, which is 1 hour, 41 minutes late, so it should be at or near Pasco about now.

 

[CHamilton]

I'm on #8(16) and we got delayed about an hour outside of sEA bc of a suspicious package by the tracks.

Man, if it's not one thing, it's another. At least BNSF didn't close everything down for 48 hours.

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/07/16/2216724/false-alarm-disrupts-seattle-rail.html