Edmonton <> Calgary......A Future Corridor?

[NS VIA Fan]

We should start a new subject "Edmonton to Calgary train" and have some fun with this.

I will.....and I'll start by quoting my post in the other thread......

If there is anyplace for a new rail service outside of the eastern corridor it's Calgary <> Edmonton and even then.....they're really not large cities: Calgary 1.4M and Edmonton 1.3M....about 300km/180mi apart. There's a lot of travel between the two and for years when the Edmonton Municipal Airport was open close to downtown...PWA operated an Eastern Airlines style Shuttle......the 'Chieftain Airbus' between the two.

Perhaps initially the CPR track between the two cities could be upgraded but if an entirely new HSR route was built.....the Queen Elizabeth II Highway is relatively flat and straight with a wide median that could possibly accommodate a rail line.

And what stations would be used? CP Rail/Calgary Tower that hasn't seen a daily train in 31 years and Strathcona? There is no easy route to the VIA Edmonton Station and even that is in an out-of-the-way location.

Build new glass and aluminum stations (a la Brightline) downtown portraying a contemporary image with easy access to the LRT in each city. Something to grab the public's attention. Not old railcars arriving at an old heritage station!

(And would it even have to be run by VIA??)

I rode between Edmonton and Calgary several times back in the '70s and '80s. Here's VIA Train #196 for Calgary at South Edmonton on July 7, 1980......and looking no different than the CP Rail 'Dayliner' that had been on this route for years. Even back then....a single RDC-3 (half passenger/half baggage-express) was sufficient to handle the passenger traffic.



Note the grill/bars across the front windows. No this is not a rough neighbourhood.... just protection from the pheasants and other birds that were like projectiles when encountered on the flat prairies. There were also about 300 grade crossings through farmer's fields along the route.

And these trains were fast: 190 miles in 3 1/2 hrs and back in the '60s the 'Dayliners' would make it into 'Trains' Magazine's annual speed survey of the fastest runs in North America.




Going back to the 50s.....there were even overnight sleepers:




CN also had a 'Railiner' on a longer route: Edmonton-Camrose-Calgary but the big competition was an almost hourly bus service and Pacific Western Airline's 'Chieftain Airbus'...........



Just show-up and go, no reservations and modelled on the Eastern Air Shuttle. Back then the Edmonton Municipal Airport was near downtown. (It's been bulldozed and is a Business Park). Now all flights use the International Airport well south of the city along the highway to Calgary. There's really no advantage to flying now as you can almost drive as fast when you take into consideration the early check-in/security requirements. Greyhound has exited the market but there is still some bus service between the cities.

Perhaps it's time to look at restating a rail service.....and do it right! New trains and new glass and aluminum stations (a la Brightline) downtown with easy access to the LRT in each city portraying a contemporary image! Something to grab the public's attention. Not 70 year old railcars arriving at old heritage stations!

This is a busy Canadian Pacific rail line so I'm sure CP will require a lot of government funding for upgrades.

 

[Urban Sky]

It was already stated in a different thread that “Mulroney was an Easterner who cared little about the West”, but I’d like to note that it was politicians from Alberta who let service between Calgary and Edmonton die:

On January 15, 1984, Transport Minister Don Mazankowski announced the indefinite suspension of Edmonton-Calgary service. Eleven Dayliner accidents in the previous two years led Edmonton's mayor of the day Laurence Decore to state "It's a seedy, tacky service used by very few people. Its 200 level crossings make it an absolute calamity that has caused too many deaths." Even with $1,000,000 in Alberta government spending and the elimination of 12 grade crossings, the Dayliner made its last run on September 6, 1985. The unsuitability of the South Edmonton station, four miles from the VIA (ex-CN) Edmonton station, as well as competition from road and air travel contributed to the service's demise.

http://tracksidetreasure.blogspot.com/2014/04/vias-calgary-edmonton-rdcs-part-1.html?m=1
Also, given that apart from the Quebec-Montreal service via Trois-Rivières (which was at that time slower and less popular than the Drummondville route serving the same two terminal stations until this day) all Corridor routes survived the 1990 cuts, I would argue that it’s reasonable to believe that Calgary-Edmonton would still operate today, had it not been abandoned by Mazankowski, the MP of Vegreville/AB who later served as Deputy Prime Minister during Mulroney’s 1990 cuts...

 

[jiml]

It was already stated in a different thread that “Mulroney was an Easterner who cared little about the West”, but I’d like to note that it was politicians from Alberta who let service between Calgary and Edmonton die:


http://tracksidetreasure.blogspot.com/2014/04/vias-calgary-edmonton-rdcs-part-1.html?m=1
Also, given that apart from the Quebec-Montreal service via Trois-Rivières (which was at that time slower and less popular than the Drummondville route serving the same two terminal stations until this day) all Corridor routes survived the 1990 cuts, I would argue that it’s reasonable to believe that Calgary-Edmonton would still operate today, had it not been abandoned by Mazankowski, the MP of Vegreville/AB who later served as Deputy Prime Minister during Mulroney’s 1990 cuts...

You raise two interesting points on this subject. The salient one has to do with the number of grade-crossing accidents and deaths involved - something that wouldn't have "made the news" far outside Alberta. If that situation is still as much of a problem it could preclude service with anything like a Dayliner, which would include contemporary cab cars, and possibly service altogether without significant construction. So good point.

The political argument is a little lame however, and disputed in the same article by the fact that the Alberta government had already invested $1M in that era's dollars and eliminated some grade crossings. That actually indicates significant political support. Mazankowski would have been in no position to dispute Mulroney's wishes (it's called cabinet solidarity) despite any local bias he may have held. Just ask any of the cabinet ministers Justin has turfed for disagreeing with him.

The Quebec route is no less fascinating...

 

[Urban Sky]

The political argument is a little lame however, and disputed in the same article by the fact that the Alberta government had already invested $1M in that era's dollars and eliminated some grade crossings. That actually indicates significant political support.

If you take the table with VIA’s per-route financials in 1988 I posted on Urban Toronto, work out the total operating subsidy of VIA’s Corridor services in that year ($190.9 million, or $365.9 million in 2019 prices, i.e. 32% more than VIA’s entire operating subsidy of $276.5 million in 2019) and then divide it by the roughly 8.08 million scheduled timetable-km for the Corridor in 1988 (refer to my VIA timetable collection on Timetable World to work out the exact mileage), you receive a per-train-km figure of $23.62 ($45.28 in 2019 values).

Now multiply that figure with 210,032 km (309 km * 13 round trips per week * 2 directions * 366 days / 7 days per week) and you can roughly estimate the federal subsidy for Calgary-Edmonton at $4.9 million per year ($9.5 million in 2019 values). This back-of-the-envelop suggests that the provincial government was only willing to spend the equivalent of 2.5 months of federal subsidies to keep the service alive, which I would hardly call “significant political support”.

Alberta spent what it was willing to afford to save the rail service and since that amount turned out to be insufficient to solve the challenges that service was facing they let the federal government kill it.

Mazankowski would have been in no position to dispute Mulroney's wishes (it's called cabinet solidarity) despite any local bias he may have held. Just ask any of the cabinet ministers Justin has turfed for disagreeing with him.

As the SNC-Lavalin affair shows, the resignation of cabinet members in protest of the government’s actions can expose embarrassing gaps between its rhetoric (championship of gender equality, first nation relations and of the rule of law without political interference) and its actions, which will happily be exploited by the political opponent, which does give minister a certain level of leverage (while risking their careers, of course). As explained and shown in a map here, the 1990 cuts disproportionally affected Tory seats...

 

[jiml]

I acknowledged your positive contribution above, but have no interest in debating some of your selective interpretations and spin. There is a counterpoint to virtually every item mentioned, however I'm going to focus on the subject of this thread - restoring a lost service.

 

[Skeena_PG]

Having lived in Alberta - including both in Edmonton and Calgary - for the first half of the 2010s, I could provide some of my own perspectives on a passenger rail service between Edmonton and Calgary could be (re)started.

Regardless of whether one would use the existing CPR ROW or building a new ROW (whether in the middle of, or alongside the QEII highway), these would be the logical minimum stops for such a service:

Central Edmonton (whether the old South Edmonton station in Old Strathcona or Downtown)
Suburban Edmonton/Nisku (connections to YEG)
Red Deer
North Calgary (near the intersection of Deerfoot Trail (Hwy2) and Airport Trail - close connection to YYC)
Downtown Calgary (old CPR/VIA station

You can also add the small communities along the route, if you were also planning on running a "milk run" service and using the CPR ROW (as, with the exception of Red Deer, the QEII highway bypasses several of these communities.

With the exception of Downtown Calgary, (and the Old Strathcona/South Edmonton) stations, you would likely need to build new stations from scratch. Any stations near YYC/YEG, and Red Deer would need to be newbuilds. YEG would be easier, theoretically, as the CPR right of way at Airport Road is beside a parking lot, whereas the CPR right of way north through Calgary travels along a creek and a nearby park near the intersection with Airport Trail.

Downtown Calgary, one could reuse the old CPR/VIA station downtown near the Calgary Tower and the Fairmont Palliser, assuming CP would be agreeable to it. That location is also walking distance to the 7th ave (C-Train Red & Blue Lines). While grade separation may not necessarily be needed for the route through Calgary, additional tracking would be needed (parts of that ROW are still single track, at least, as of the last time I was in Calgary in 2015). This would also be well position for connections to any future train from Calgary to Banff/Lake Louise (and running a train from near YYC to Banff/Lake Louise would almost be too logical).

Edmonton is the trickier aspect - while the old South Edmonton building may still be usable, its location is not as convenient to Edmonton's LRT or to downtown Edmonton (although Whyte Ave does have frequent bus service connecting to the existing Capitol Line and the Valley Line under construction), and LRT expansion along Whyte Ave is proposed by the City within the next 20 years or so). The theoretical ideal station is a station right across the river above Grandin LRT station (right across from the Alberta Legislature), across the High Level Bridge (with tracks and ROV still here, used by the Edmonton Radial Railroad Society for seasonal heritage streetcar service), the rail connection across Gateway Blvd (and even Whyte Ave if Google maps is accurate) was removed/paved over and would need to be restored in some fashion - this would very much require the track to be tunnelled under Whyte Ave (esp. if we're using any equipment apart from DMUs/EMUs) and Old Strathcona, coming out near the High Level bridge to go along top level rail ROW (the bottom deck of the ROW is 109st). However, this would likely be very expensive, not only for the grade separation requirements, station costs/land acquisition (that area would likely not have enough room for more than single track/platform so the train would also have to back out and be serviced at a suburban facility). Doable, but costly. Not to mention the High Level Bridge is over 100 years old (built in 1913), and it may be politically and environmentally challenging proposing a new crossing of the North Saskatchewan River (nearly the entire length of the river on both sides within City of Edmonton boundaries is protected parkland). Given the age of the bridge, the trains would need to be light enough to cross.

Regardless of the route/ROW one does, you will very likely need to grade separate it to reduce (if not eliminate) level crossings along the route. Even though passenger trains have long departed the rails here, you still have vehicles trying to beat the train (and losing), and crashes still happen. If you're gonna grade separate with a dedicated ROW, you might as well go the full way to an electrified bullet-train/HSR (which would then allow one to buy existing HSR
equipment off the shelf from Europe or Asia, either brand new or second-hand). I once had a fleeting thought years ago that a start-up using the CPR ROW could have bought/leased the Wisconsin Talgos to run along the route, but imagine how the ride would feel on jointed rail.

Anyways, my two cents' worth.

 

[Urban Sky]

I acknowledged your positive contribution above, but have no interest in debating some of your selective interpretations and spin. There is a counterpoint to virtually every item mentioned, however I'm going to focus on the subject of this thread - restoring a lost service.

I feel you, as normally I am the one who gets annoyed when rail fans volunteer their personal theories about why passenger rail services (especially in Western Canada) disappeared, so thank you for killing off that needless discussion!

Nevertheless, I find it a curious twist of history that Alberta's main passenger service disappeared in the same year (1985) as when all across the country services originally cut in 1981 were revived: from the Atlantic over the Montreal-Sherbrooke and Toronto-Havelock services to the Western half of the Super Continental...

In any case, Alberta's provincial government will have to invest orders of magnitudes more than what $1 million from the mid-1980s is worth today (roughly: $2 million), for inter-city passenger rail to become viable again between its two largest cities, but I do agree with everyone who thinks that it would be a good investment for the province and the country!

 

[jiml]

In any case, Alberta's provincial government will have to invest orders of magnitudes more than what $1 million from the mid-1980s is worth today (roughly: $2 million), for inter-city passenger rail to become viable again between its two largest cities, but I do agree with everyone who thinks that it would be a good investment for the province and the country!

No argument! That million ($3.2M in today's dollars) wouldn't scratch the surface of what is needed, and in fact investment by Alberta (who are not in the best shape right now) was going to be my opening comment when I put together my proposal.

 

[Urban Sky]

That million ($3.2M in today's dollars)

Thank you for correcting me, I accidentally used the conversion rate of 1988 values into 2019 Dollars (192%) rather than early-1980s values into 2020 or 2021 Dollars...

 

[jiml]

I used 1981, since I guessed that's when the money had been allocated or spent. It doesn't matter, since the final amount is a drop in the proverbial bucket.

 

[Siegmund]

Nevertheless, I find it a curious twist of history that Alberta's main passenger service disappeared in the same year (1985) as when all across the country services originally cut in 1981 were revived: from the Atlantic over the Montreal-Sherbrooke and Toronto-Havelock services to the Western half of the Super Continental...

I would suggest that that is why it disappeared: the Super Continental came back so the Regina-Saskatoon, Saskatoon-Edmonton, and Edmonton-Calgary local service that "replaced" it and allowed Edmonton and Saskatoon passengers to reach the Canadian was no longer needed.

I rather suspect that absent the 1981 bloodbath, Calgary-Edmonton was going to die a natural death in 1981 or 1982, just like Edmonton-Drumheller and Saskatoon-Prince Albert already had, and the only reason it survived a few more years was because Edmonton had no other service.

As others noted earlier in the thread, ridership was plenty low already in 1980. Between airline shuttles and running parallel to the then-fastest highway on the continent, even a 3½ hour service didn't have much appeal.

I had not considered the grade crossing and pheasant risk before - but that part certainly hasn't changed much in the last 35 years.

 

[Urban Sky]

I would suggest that that is why it disappeared: the Super Continental came back so the Regina-Saskatoon, Saskatoon-Edmonton, and Edmonton-Calgary local service that "replaced" it and allowed Edmonton and Saskatoon passengers to reach the Canadian was no longer needed.

I rather suspect that absent the 1981 bloodbath, Calgary-Edmonton was going to die a natural death in 1981 or 1982, just like Edmonton-Drumheller and Saskatoon-Prince Albert already had, and the only reason it survived a few more years was because Edmonton had no other service.

As others noted earlier in the thread, ridership was plenty low already in 1980. Between airline shuttles and running parallel to the then-fastest highway on the continent, even a 3½ hour service didn't have much appeal.

I had not considered the grade crossing and pheasant risk before - but that part certainly hasn't changed much in the last 35 years.

As you noted yourself, Edmonton was still served by a daily Saskatoon-Edmonton service and the thrice-weekly Skeena - and both through the actual downtown station, not the CP station in South Edmonton. If the blog post I quoted is correct, the suspension of the Calgary-Edmonton service was announced in January 1984, thus just a few months before the Panorama was introduced as a daily sleeper service between Winnipeg and Edmonton (merged with the Skeena three times per week), but more than a year before the Panorama was extended back to Vancouver as the return of the “Super-Continental”, thus obviating the need for a connecting service out of Edmonton to reach the Canadian. I would find it rather odd to announce the withdrawal of a service a few months or even a year before announcing the (re)introduction of a service which mostly obviates the need for the service you want to withdraw...

 

[jiml]

I wanted this to work, I really did, so I studied it from several different angles, reached out to people I know in the area, crunched numbers, etc. I was unable to convince myself that this service was actually viable, so good luck convincing anyone else. There is no insurmountable obstacle to restarting service between these two cities - and from some points it makes perfect sense. If the Alberta government wanted to throw buckets (heck, barrels) of money at this for a Brightline-style service it would probably work. Does it necessarily involve VIA - no, I don't think so. This is basically just a very long commuter run that likely won't connect to anything. (Not to say that it couldn't, but its success does not depend on it.) Here's what I learned, and please feel free to correct, interject or add to these observations.

The cities aren't that far apart, there is a decent highway that is seldom congested and frequent, cheap air service that with security lines and other airport hassles probably times out around the same as driving. In order to be successful a train would have to be fast, have limited stops and connect downtown to downtown. In other words Brightline. Then you look at equipment - would Brightline-style trains be suitable for all that wide-open space with unpredictable weather, blowing snow, etc.. then there's all the level crossings - already cited in a couple of articles as the bane of RDC's? (Safety concerns aside, those Siemens' nose cones can't be cheap.) This sounds like conventional trains, with a locomotive on each end or at least an NPCU on one.

Once I found out you can fly for as little as $100, that means the train has to be less than that. My guess - around $60 each way, but I didn't spend a lot of time on this aspect. The highway only becomes congested in the cities at either end. (This is much further out for Calgary - more like Airdrie, but this screams commuter train not intercity, and they don't have one so maybe not a local concern.) The highway tends to be problematic in winter, so in those cases people fly or stay home. (Obviously weather can impact flying too, but without a rail alternative those are the only options.)

As far as routes go, the traditional CP one is obvious but not without small hurdles that tend to add up. Not the least of these is the inability to reach either downtown without significant construction and cost. Even smaller mid-points like Red Deer are problematic - the tracks have been relocated west of the town and no longer serve the historic station. Yes, there is probably room on the CP site near their wye, but would they agree and is there value to a station there? It's the only other major population base on the route. Add in that if serving VIA's Edmonton station is necessary, that results in a significant detour as outlined previously by @NS VIA Fan. All the tracks and connections seem to be in place, so construction would be minimal, but would the time needed be worth the effort? (Sub-note here that a two-ended train on the CP trackage could easily serve both VIA and Strathcona - just not sure it's worthwhile.) Serving VIA Edmonton opens up the possibility of using CN trackage last used by Railiners in 1971, but it's a fairly circuitous route compared to CP and still doesn't reach either Calgary downtown (in a practical way), the airport there or their RT system.

Several studies have been done on a separate rail link between the two cities - some high-speed, others not. Most parallel the CP route, the QE highway or parts of both. Obviously if there were actual demand at least one of these would have progressed past the study stage. Unless the Alberta government is looking for a post-pandemic infrastructure project to fund with their currently limited resources, short of a bond issue or tax increase, there's not going to be a shovel in the ground for some time. If a regular speed train is sufficient there are options, but none that could start in the near future. Too much time has passed since the last service.

At least it was an interesting research project.

 

[Siegmund]

If the blog post I quoted is correct, the suspension of the Calgary-Edmonton service was announced in January 1984, thus just a few months before the Panorama was introduced as a daily sleeper service between Winnipeg and Edmonton....

I had the impression that there was some sort of temporary suspension for a short time in early 1984, but that regular service had resumed before the spring 1984 timetable was printed, and continued until fall of 1985. (The Super Continental appears in the June 85 timetable and Calgary-Edmonton disappears in the October 85.)

I don't know what portions of 1984 and 1985 the train actually ran; I had relatives in both cities but none of them had ever ridden a train.

The 1981-84 situation is weird. I can't imagine they saved much money, or much equipment, running Winnipeg-Regina-Saskatoon and Saskatoon-Edmonton day trains, requiring 2 trainsets each, and hoping passengers would overnight in Saskatoon to connect eastward, vs. running Winnipeg-Edmonton with 3 sets. Perhaps that is why they tried the Panorama.

As for the current situation... Airdrie-Calgary commuter service would be an amazing start. That isn't a real fun drive except in the middle of the night. (Of course it also doesn't give the impression of being suitable for passenger service without major upgrades, either - the tracks in Balzac and Airdrie have a 'rural secondary line' vibe to them, and driving back and forth say 20 times spread over 8 days didn't ever happen to see a freight train.)

 

[jiml]

A minor clarification on my earlier post:

Serving VIA Edmonton opens up the possibility of using CN trackage last used by Railiners in 1971

Although CN stopped serving Calgary from Edmonton in 1971, VIA did continue service on the same line as far as Camrose, before diverging to Drumheller. It was pointed out to me that there may be more local support for restoring that service than to Calgary. VIA took 4 hours to cover the 291 km (181 mile) route with an RDC, but did so daily with the train overnighting in Drumheller. The first leg - between Edmonton and Camrose - was faster than driving.

 

[Seaboard92]

Now what would happen to your study if you extended further south of Calgary to Lethbridge. Not that Lethbridge is that strong of an anchor point.

 

[Siegmund]

Although CN stopped serving Calgary from Edmonton in 1971, VIA did continue service on the same line as far as Camrose, before diverging to Drumheller. It was pointed out to me that there may be more local support for restoring that service than to Calgary.

I have doubts that Edmonton-Camrose is a big enough market for commuter service... and the rails are gone most of the way from Camrose to Drumheller. (If you meant using CN all the way, well, I suppose one could - but I can't see any upside to making the trip an hour longer and bypassing all the population centers.)

Relaying 1000 feet of track in Strathcona to be able to get to the streetcar bridge from CP seems rather easier than most of the alternatives. A long detour to come into Edmonton from the east would be quite time-consuming.

 

[jiml]

I have doubts that Edmonton-Camrose is a big enough market for commuter service... and the rails are gone most of the way from Camrose to Drumheller. (If you meant using CN all the way, well, I suppose one could - but I can't see any upside to making the trip an hour longer and bypassing all the population centers.)

Relaying 1000 feet of track in Strathcona to be able to get to the streetcar bridge from CP seems rather easier than most of the alternatives. A long detour to come into Edmonton from the east would be quite time-consuming.

I wasn't advocating for Edmonton-Camrose, but someone told me it would have more support than Edmonton-Calgary. Is Camrose a new "bedroom community" for Edmonton? I have no idea. I only checked out the all-CN route to see if there was a way to connect it at the Calgary end, since the VIA part was already in place. I agree that it would take at least an hour longer than the CP route, but thought it was important to exhaust every possibility. It's a really circuitous route. Other than as a connection to other CN trains I'm surprised it ever had service.

 

[NS VIA Fan]

Now what would happen to your study if you extended further south of Calgary to Lethbridge. Not that Lethbridge is that strong of an anchor point.

Perhaps waaaaay in the future! Lethbridge has a pop of around 100,000 and is 200km south of Calgary. The last passenger train was a RDC 'Dayliner' in 1971....50 years ago.

 

[Willbridge]

I wasn't advocating for Edmonton-Camrose, but someone told me it would have more support than Edmonton-Calgary. Is Camrose a new "bedroom community" for Edmonton? I have no idea. I only checked out the all-CN route to see if there was a way to connect it at the Calgary end, since the VIA part was already in place. I agree that it would take at least an hour longer than the CP route, but thought it was important to exhaust every possibility. It's a really circuitous route. Other than as a connection to other CN trains I'm surprised it ever had service.

Camrose has commuters but I suspect that most commute to Refinery Row rather than Downtown Edmonton or Government Centre.

Camrose in RDC history is known as the junction where the Railiner for Drumheller and the one for Calgary were combined to run as a single train between there and Downtown Edmonton. The CN line to Calgary was built by the Grand Trunk Pacific to double as a very indirect access from their main line to Calgary, rather than being meant to serve Edmonton<>Calgary well. It was 66 miles from Edmonton to Camrose back then. After CN integrated the GTP and CNR (Canadian Northern Railway) the shorter route on the CNR made Edmonton<>Calgary ALMOST viable.

As discussed elsewhere the main value of the CN Railiner was as a connection in Edmonton for transcontinental trains and the other CN Railiner services that converged on the CN Tower Station (North Battleford, Drumheller, Grand Centre). That helps to explain the 1971 CP schedule shown above. When federal subsidies began, the CP kept the turn that connected in Calgary with the Canadian and the Lethbridge trains and the CN kept the turn that made Edmonton connections.

The problem with that was that the two railways had completely different tariffs and completely different stations some distance from each other on both ends. The set-up completely destroyed the corridor effect in the period when the bus and air shuttle set-ups were getting established.

Subsequently the CN train was withdrawn and the CP Dayliner service was made ALMOST a useful corridor service, hampered by not running the trains Saturday afternoon or Sunday morning, and cut back to South Edmonton. VIA picked up that pattern. It was a sore point when they introduced one-day excursion fares with national publicity because they couldn't be used on the Alberta corridor.

My son and I checking the train times at Camrose after the Calgary CN train was discontinued....

 

[Willbridge]

A minor clarification on my earlier post:



Although CN stopped serving Calgary from Edmonton in 1971, VIA did continue service on the same line as far as Camrose, before diverging to Drumheller. It was pointed out to me that there may be more local support for restoring that service than to Calgary. VIA took 4 hours to cover the 291 km (181 mile) route with an RDC, but did so daily with the train overnighting in Drumheller. The first leg - between Edmonton and Camrose - was faster than driving.

When the service was threatened in the late 1970's we (Transport 2000 Alberta) suggested that VIA Rail should consider turning the Edmonton <> Drumheller schedule around so that it departed Edmonton in the morning and returned from Drumheller in the evening. That could have been done on weekends and holidays given the surplus of RDC's at that point. The rationale was the growth of tourism in that area. Instead it was included in the 1981 hit list.

 

[Willbridge]

I had the impression that there was some sort of temporary suspension for a short time in early 1984, but that regular service had resumed before the spring 1984 timetable was printed, and continued until fall of 1985. (The Super Continental appears in the June 85 timetable and Calgary-Edmonton disappears in the October 85.)

I don't know what portions of 1984 and 1985 the train actually ran; I had relatives in both cities but none of them had ever ridden a train.

The 1981-84 situation is weird. I can't imagine they saved much money, or much equipment, running Winnipeg-Regina-Saskatoon and Saskatoon-Edmonton day trains, requiring 2 trainsets each, and hoping passengers would overnight in Saskatoon to connect eastward, vs. running Winnipeg-Edmonton with 3 sets. Perhaps that is why they tried the Panorama. ....

The transcontinental changes in 1981 and the patch-up in 1984 were completely separate from the Edmonton<>Calgary case. Not that they should have been. VIA in Alberta was caught completely off-balance by the sudden explosion of ridership and the station complications in Edmonton vs. South Edmonton and the fact that no checked baggage was handled on the Edmonton<>Calgary trains (so checked bags went to the CN Tower Station while the passengers arrived at South Edmonton). The attached photo shows the pedestrian route from the CP South Edmonton Station to the Edmonton Transit bus stop to the downtown stop near the CN Tower.

I have a few documents that will help to explain this and when I dig them out they may help with this puzzle.


Baggage was self-service, not checked. Not too big a problem till 1981 when the route inadvertently became Edmonton's transcon connection.

 

[Willbridge]

As mentioned above, between 1981 and 1985 two different things were going on at the same time: the transcon service was through a very Canadian "order in Council" being restructured and restructured again and new equipment was being discussed. In the same time period CP Rail was in an old-school CTC process to rid itself of the Dayliners between South Edmonton and Calgary. Here are some documents to help. I'll try to keep these in chronologic order.

 

[Willbridge]

I blew up the key paragraphs from this letter and they're below. I presume that the other equipment manufacturer referred to was Bombardier. Later, a set of Superliners was used in service on the Panorama and passengers loved them.

 

[Willbridge]

As the late-night tv pitchmen say, "but wait! There's more." There's a blown up excerpt below the full letter.