Electric and Hybrid road vehicles

[jiml]

Once the charging issues and higher upfront costs are resolved by increased production and sales, the main remaining issue is what to do with all the batteries at the end of their life cycle. Some of the same governments pushing electric vehicles are the same ones that take issue with battery disposal. Battery disposal taxes are only at the minor annoyance level in some jurisdictions, but the future scope of the problem given the size, quantity and construction of EV batteries is not really being addressed. Recycling or reuse efforts are going to have to be dramatically up-scaled so these things don't wind up in landfill.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Once the charging issues and higher upfront costs are resolved by increased production and sales, the main remaining issue is what to do with all the batteries at the end of their life cycle. Some of the same governments pushing electric vehicles are the same ones that take issue with battery disposal. Battery disposal taxes are only at the minor annoyance level in some jurisdictions, but the future scope of the problem given the size, quantity and construction of EV batteries is not really being addressed. Recycling or reuse efforts are going to have to be dramatically up-scaled so these things don't wind up in landfill.

What has not been mentioned is the manufacturing of batteries which uses materials often mined in developing countries in some cases using child labor. There is a question whether enough raw material will be available to meet the anticipated demand if EVs totally replace ICE powered vehicles.

 

[PVD]

Battery companies are heavily invested in research to find different materials that can match or exceed the energy density of the various Lithium chemistries. Cost, safety, recyclability, and geo-political considerations are all involved. Gov't funded research as well.

 

[Rambling Robert]

About three years ago, I considered buying a used Nissan Leaf which had about two years left on its batteries. It was a 2013 model kind of frumpy compared to today’s Leaf and this one cost a mere $13K.

In 1998 I had a cool experience riding in a Honda Insight #1. During the demo, this teeny tiny car bolted up the steepest hill in town with no effort - carrying three passengers.

In and around 1961 I bragged to my friends that I received a Christmas gift which was a solar powered toy car. Eventually, I had to let my friends know it was not an all solar but it had was a light switch that turned the electric motor on and off.

In 1961 somehow copies Mechanics,Illustrated circulated around us neighborhood kids that made us smart. I remember solar was big as well as fuel cells for spacecraft was an awesome thought.

My niece’s husband installs Tesla solar roof systems, including the power wall. He said the people who want the Tesla power wall system have Tesla cars in their garage. By the way, they don’t install theTesla tile solar panels currently - they install the regular solar panels. There are three grades of Tesla solar Roof tiles and I think at least one of them really looks awesome. He drives a truck with a Tesla sign on its side door but it’s a Ford ha ha.

I hope he gets a tesla truck soon so I can get a ride!

By the time I decided to switch from high mileage (low mpg) gas combustion engines they’ll be plenty of used Teslas with aftermarket batteries.

But my first EV dream was 1974 when I wanted a “solar powered EV” car.

Today’s version:

 

[vap0rtranz]

About three years ago, I considered buying a used Nissan Leaf which had about two years left on its batteries. It was a 2013 model kind of frumpy compared to today’s Leaf and this one cost a mere $13K.

Yea, some early Gen models of EV/PHEV can be had for cheap.

I bought a Gen2 Volt years ago for less than any decent sedan. Had 0 issues with it. Sold it to a friend when I needed to upgrade to a truck (went with a diesel truck, so I'm a tree hugger?! Maybe not so much).

Nay-sayers told me all sorts of crap:

• "your battery will explode" - no, that was the Bolt not the Volt, and besides gas/diesel has been exploding for a century
• "no tech will work on it" - yes they do, the new kids in the bays work on high voltage because it's HIGH pay (and some don't even like the old tech -- one guy I watch doesn't want to be bothered with things like adjusting carburetors anymore)
• "it's more expensive mileage than ICE" - no, actually I crunched my #s and broke out even with gas @ 40MPG, but that's because around here electricity is cheap ($0.10-0.12/kwh)

Li batteries are no saint. A problem I had was mileage drops off a cliff in cold winters. My MPGe (a funny unit I really don't like but it's a necessary evil) went from >40MPGe to <20MPGe. It's the Elephant-in-the-Room the few folks talk about. EV/PHEV are great for Texas & Florida but not the Snow Belt.

And cheap electricity will make or break EV/PHEV. Folks in Cali paying high electric bills really can't be breaking even without doing funny math over a couple decades as a ROI (return on investment). If energy prices stay in flux because of world events (*cough*), somebody will have to keep crunching the #s to compare gas/diesel to electricity to see if the average person (*cough* not Tesla incomes *cough*) can really be better off driving EV/PHEV.

 

[jis]

I just charge my Plugin Hybrid using Solar power through net metered setup. In the last two years I have only drawn about 10% of my consumption (domestic, HVAC etc. + car charging) net net from the grid. The rest is from the Sun. That net draw will go to zero when I install the additional bank of panels in the near future. It kind of isolates me from the regular annual rate rises. I just have to pay a net meter connect charge which has a component for supporting the grid infrastructure, and of course any net draw from the grid.

Admittedly for me the battery backed up Solar microgrid setup was more of a geek exercise. I chose an architecture that is not the least expensive but one that is most fascinating from a techno-geek PoV.

 

[vap0rtranz]

I just charge my Plugin Hybrid using Solar power through net metered setup.

Yup, I also did this. 8kw ground mounted solar. I didn't include the offset from net metered because ...

I chose an architecture that is not the least expensive but one that is most fascinating from a techno-geek PoV.

... most folks cannot afford this. Most folks will remain grid connected and constrained by electric bills. Self-installed solar is a large CapEx bill for homeowners. Mine was about $25k for professional install even after tax rebates (because old roofs weren't all designed for panels, pylons aren't cheap, and Midwest high-wind setups drive up costs).

Also, onsite solar is basically a non-starter for renters. Their landlord must put up the cash for the install, trickle down the savings in some way to tenants (is the electric bill included in the rent?!), and come out above water. I've also been a landlord in a Condo building -- anything communal like this is pulling teeth. (My fellow owners couldn't agree on the color of replacment windows ... much less solar panels on the roof.) So on-site really becomes an option for folks who can afford to be homeowners and still have disposable income to spare afterwards. It's a small pot.

 

[jis]

I have actually driven a hybrid since 2004. The plugin came in 2017, the Solar setup in 2020. All happened purely for techno geek reasons. Any advantages on the environmental front are purely incidental.

The only practical way in which Apartment dwellers (which I was until 2014) can get dedicated Solar power is by buying into part of a Solar farm. Many In Florida are doing so these days. Many are also having leased Solar installed on their roof with no upfront cost and exclusive access to the generated power as part of the roof lease deal. I just own my entire setup outright, again because it was my techno geek project. Some spend their money on model railroads. I spend mine on Solar microgrid

 

[Qapla]

I would love to install some solar. I have the space and the techno-geek ability ... not the funds

 

[jis]

I would love to install some solar. I have the space and the techno-geek ability ... not the funds

Yes. It is pricey. But tax credits of 33% - 40% of the cost takes some of the bite out of it. Additionally, the electric utility rate goes up, up and up each year, while once installed the Sun rays cost the same $0. To be fair there is a equipment replacement cost, but that is 30 years away, by when I won't care what the cost is.

I actually added more panels to my system this year, which is very easy to do in my AC microgrid architecture. You just plug the extra bank into a free slot in the Combiner. Now I generate enough power on my rooftop even with cloudy days and all, to power my house and charge my car, and then have left over to sell back to the grid, so reduce emission of someone else a bit. Of course I still use net-metered connection to the grid, which costs a flat rate of $25 per month here, if the energy bill is lower than that, which it is, being $0 month after month after month.

I just use the grid as a giant battery for all practical purposes to provide base load when the Sun don't shine. I view the flat utility charge as Battery Service Charge which can be eliminated by disconnecting from the grid. As far as I can tell I need an addition 20kW battery capacity installed to be able to do so safely. For now I don't see any reason to do so. I just have enough battery to last over a multi-hour power outage.

Incidentally, I came across this interesting article which some might find quite informative. Turns out that road vehicles are the biggest culprit among transportation modes in as far as CO2 emissions go....

https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions-from-transport

 

[pennyk]

I have driven a Hybrid since 2003 when I bought a Honda Civic Hybrid. It had some issues that were improved by Honda and I traded the 2003 for a 2007 Honda Civic Hybrid in 2007 and have been driving it ever since. Since I rarely drive, I really do not need a Hybrid, but will keep it until it dies (or I do). It has almost 32,000 miles on it.

 

[BarbW]

I drive a 2009 Ford Escape Hybrid with more than 100k miles on it. After 14 years the battery is still 75% good. Still getting more than 30 mpg. I put solar on the house, and a charger in the garage in preparation for my next car, but haven't settled on a definite EV or PHEV model. (It won't be Tesla.) My problem with EV is that it will be my only vehicle which sounds risky if I take any long trips. The solid state battery that Toyota has invested in sounds great, but it's a few years off yet. Indecision. Meanwhile, the old Escape is doing great so I can't complain.

 

[jiml]

I thought long and hard about buying the hybrid model of my current vehicle in 2021. The deck was literally stacked against it due to a 6-month backlog due to the pandemic and the $25K (CAD) price differential. I blame the latter somewhat on Ford for stacking the hybrid model (here) with options I wouldn't normally order, but still that left a $20,000 gap that I simply couldn't afford. We drive to Florida every year so as an exercise we made notes on the availability of charging facilities along the way this year, with a view to a future electric choice. Unless things change dramatically a full-electric vehicle simply isn't an option for long-distance driving. Not only would stopping to charge add significant time to the drive, there just aren't that many working chargers. The situation will only worsen as more people acquire electric vehicles (in Canada it's mandatory by 2035), but difficult to visualize unless a lot more money is invested in charging infrastructure. As a case-in-point, the hotel complex where we live in Florida (3 hotels) has one charger with two outputs. When working they take an overnight to charge a Tesla. Fortunately there is seldom more than one on the property at a time. As bad as the situation is in the US, it's worse here in Canada if you live outside a major urban area. Our small town has one (1) electric charging station 10 miles away and the cost of upgrading one's home electric to accommodate vehicle charging is out of the reach of the average person. Coupled with the difference to purchase the electric vehicle I don't see the cost recovery curve anytime soon.

I also have ethical questions about how the lithium for the batteries is sourced and the rapidly increasing problem of disposing of dead batteries.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I thought long and hard about buying the hybrid model of my current vehicle in 2021. The deck was literally stacked against it due to a 6-month backlog due to the pandemic and the $25K (CAD) price differential. I blame the latter somewhat on Ford for stacking the hybrid model (here) with options I wouldn't normally order, but still that left a $20,000 gap that I simply couldn't afford. We drive to Florida every year so as an exercise we made notes on the availability of charging facilities along the way this year, with a view to a future electric choice. Unless things change dramatically a full-electric vehicle simply isn't an option for long-distance driving. Not only would stopping to charge add significant time to the drive, there just aren't that many working chargers. The situation will only worsen as more people acquire electric vehicles (in Canada it's mandatory by 2035), but difficult to visualize unless a lot more money is invested in charging infrastructure. As a case-in-point, the hotel complex where we live in Florida (3 hotels) has one charger with two outputs. When working they take an overnight to charge a Tesla. Fortunately there is seldom more than one on the property at a time. As bad as the situation is in the US, it's worse here in Canada if you live outside a major urban area. Our small town has one (1) electric charging station 10 miles away and the cost of upgrading one's home electric to accommodate vehicle charging is out of the reach of the average person. Coupled with the difference to purchase the electric vehicle I don't see the cost recovery curve anytime soon.

I also have ethical questions about how the lithium for the batteries is sourced and the rapidly increasing problem of disposing of dead batteries.

We've discussed this before when both of us were purchasing New Vehicles.

Toyota has really done a good job with their Battery Technology, but most people would be better served by a Hybrid Vehicle for the reasons you mention in your Post.

Tesla has agreed to make their charging Stations compatible with other Manufacturers Electric Vehicles, but there are not enough of them for the Millions of Electric Vehicles that will exist in the next few years.

My Brother and SIL in California bought an Electric Subaru SUV with a Toyota Battery system and they get over 700 miles on Full Charge, plus they charge it @ home with a Charger that the Dealer included in their Deal.

Currently most Electric Vehicles are fairly Pricey as you mentioned, and I can't picture Millions of People rushing out to purchase a New Electric Vehicle when a Hybrid is a much better choice for most drivers!

 

[jiml]

I can't picture Millions of People rushing out to purchase a New Electric Vehicle when a Hybrid is a much better choice for most drivers!

That is the problem, and with the push to full electric by governments the manufacturers aren't making enough hybrids to bring down the price point.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Here in Maine a recent ruling by Maine Bureau of Environmental Protection has stipulated that by 2032 82% of vehicle sales has to be Zero Emission Vehicles (ZEVs). This is somewhat controversial here as (1) Maine is a relatively poor state especially in the more rural areas in the North and East and EV's cost more, and (2) it is a large state where especially in the rural areas one has to travel long distances even for basic necessities like groceries and (3) it gets cold here in the winter and battery capacity decreases with temperature. Currently this only applies to sales, so there is nothing stopping someone from going across the border into New Hampshire to buy an Internal Combustion car.

I'm not sure whether hybrids count as ZEV's since technically they are not ZEV when the engine is running.

 

[jiml]

Here in Maine a recent ruling by Maine Bureau of Environmental Protection has stipulated that by 2032 82% of vehicle sales has to be Zero Emission Vehicles (ZEVs). This is somewhat controversial here as (1) Maine is a relatively poor state especially in the more rural areas in the North and East and EV's cost more, and (2) it is a large state where especially in the rural areas one has to travel long distances even for basic necessities like groceries and (3) it gets cold here in the winter and battery capacity decreases with temperature. Currently this only applies to sales, so there is nothing stopping someone from going across the border into New Hampshire to buy an Internal Combustion car.

I'm not sure whether hybrids count as ZEV's since technically they are not ZEV when the engine is running.

There are four nearby Atlantic provinces with the same three issues.

 

[jis]

I'm not sure whether hybrids count as ZEV's since technically they are not ZEV when the engine is running.

Hybrids are generally categorized as AT-PZEV.

Plugin Hybrids like Prius Prime are categorized as SULEV.

OTOH even ZEV do not have net zero carbon footprint.

Here is an interesting article....

https://www.theverge.com/2023/4/26/...ollution-carbon-footprint-supply-chain-report

I drive a 2009 Ford Escape Hybrid with more than 100k miles on it. After 14 years the battery is still 75% good. Still getting more than 30 mpg. I put solar on the house, and a charger in the garage in preparation for my next car, but haven't settled on a definite EV or PHEV model. (It won't be Tesla.) My problem with EV is that it will be my only vehicle which sounds risky if I take any long trips. The solid state battery that Toyota has invested in sounds great, but it's a few years off yet. Indecision. Meanwhile, the old Escape is doing great so I can't complain.

I have decided for the moment that I cannot depend on enough electricity being available reliably as a Hurricane passes by, whereas I can always store a few canisters of gasoline when a Hurricane approaches. Hence I have a Plugin Hybrid as the best compromise.

I may be a bit biased in my opinion since it is based on my experience after Hurricane Sandy came by over NJ after which we had no electricity to be had anywhere within reasonable range for many days, so much so that I had to make sure I had enough gas left so that I could actually find a gas station that had electricity to run its pumps.

Given the amount of daily driving I do for all practical purposes I am using a ZEV charged from Solar Panels. Gasoline gets used only on the rare occasions when I drive more than 30 miles at a time. There are days when I charge it twice too but seldom fire up the gas engine.

 

[jiml]

Sidebar question @jis, how do your solar panels fare in bad weather such as hurricanes? Obviously you don't have the freeze and thaw cycles of more northern locations, but solar panel users near me have had recent issues with hail damage and panels detaching during windstorms. Neither are covered by homeowners' insurance and require special coverage I'm told. Is living in a hurricane zone problematic?

 

[jis]

Sidebar question @jis, how do your solar panels fare in bad weather such as hurricanes? Obviously you don't have the freeze and thaw cycles of more northern locations, but solar panel users near me have had recent issues with hail damage and panels detaching during windstorms. Neither are covered by homeowners' insurance and require special coverage I'm told. Is living in a hurricane zone problematic?

In Florida there are strict rules to be followed for anything attached to the roof and indeed the roof attachment to the house too - the so called wrapped attachment which is compulsory in all new constructions. In the area where I live the attachments have to withstand 150mph winds upto 15' above ground and 160mph above that. So until we get hit by a Category 5 Hurricane or a very significant Tornado, it will not be a problem.

We had a major hailstorm recently with 1+" hail stone which damaged many roofs, including mine, and the insurance company recommended that the roof be replaced to prevent future issues with leakage. Of course they probably also want the roof to be upgraded to the latest roof standards here, post Irma, which caused significant upgrades to the requirements. Anyway as long as they are paying, As for the solar panels, they suffered no damage from the hail stones. They have lived through 100-110mph wind gusts in previous years.

 

[Stobe fan]

I thought long and hard about buying the hybrid model of my current vehicle in 2021. The deck was literally stacked against it due to a 6-month backlog due to the pandemic and the $25K (CAD) price differential. I blame the latter somewhat on Ford for stacking the hybrid model (here) with options I wouldn't normally order, but still that left a $20,000 gap that I simply couldn't afford. We drive to Florida every year so as an exercise we made notes on the availability of charging facilities along the way this year, with a view to a future electric choice. Unless things change dramatically a full-electric vehicle simply isn't an option for long-distance driving. Not only would stopping to charge add significant time to the drive, there just aren't that many working chargers. The situation will only worsen as more people acquire electric vehicles (in Canada it's mandatory by 2035), but difficult to visualize unless a lot more money is invested in charging infrastructure. As a case-in-point, the hotel complex where we live in Florida (3 hotels) has one charger with two outputs. When working they take an overnight to charge a Tesla. Fortunately there is seldom more than one on the property at a time. As bad as the situation is in the US, it's worse here in Canada if you live outside a major urban area. Our small town has one (1) electric charging station 10 miles away and the cost of upgrading one's home electric to accommodate vehicle charging is out of the reach of the average person. Coupled with the difference to purchase the electric vehicle I don't see the cost recovery curve anytime soon.

I also have ethical questions about how the lithium for the batteries is sourced and the rapidly increasing problem of disposing of dead batteries.

It requires a lot of fossil fuel input to acquire the materials to make just one battery. I don't see how it would be sustainable to build an industry which replaces and repairs what is out there already.

 

[Rover]

Ford says it’s reducing production of the F-150 Lightning electric pickup vehicle as it adjusts to weaker-than-expected electric vehicle sales growth

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wir...50-lightning-pickup-weaker-expected-106509785

 

[MARC Rider]

Ford says it’s reducing production of the F-150 Lightning electric pickup vehicle as it adjusts to weaker-than-expected electric vehicle sales growth

https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wir...50-lightning-pickup-weaker-expected-106509785

I would think that pickup trucks aren't exactly the best application for a battery electric vehicle. Bigger batteries are heavier, which means the useful payload is less. I think the best application for a battery vehicle would be for urban and suburban passenger driving where you drive under 100 miles per day and can take ot home or back to the shop where it can recharge all night. Probably a small car or small SUV, but the manufacturers like to start with the larger, more profitable vehicles first.

 

[Maglev]

During the recent cold spells, electric vehicles are being hit with the triple-whammy of reduced battery performance, slower charging rates, and increased demand for cabin heat.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgor...e-of-electric-vehicle-owners/?sh=43463f4a39ac

 

[Devil's Advocate]

What has not been mentioned is the manufacturing of batteries which uses materials often mined in developing countries in some cases using child labor.

Many downsides of EV batteries (caustic chemicals, child labor, environmental harm, etc.) are also found in the extraction, refining, and burning of fossil fuels.

There is a question whether enough raw material will be available to meet the anticipated demand if EVs totally replace ICE powered vehicles.

Compared to Musk's interplanetary migration schemes the EV resource issue is a small rounding error well within the realm of plausible resolution. Although maybe it makes more sense to wean ourselves off cars that sit around shading otherwise unnecessary pavement for 95% of their existence.