Emp Serv to GCT, LSL NYP Suspended, Other NYP Changes 2018

[jis]

Thirdrail can probably give a more definitive answer to the food service question, but I have heard from usually unreliable sources that the dormant commissary in ALB is going to be temporarily brought back on line. They would need to stock the NY section at ALB too if it is turned there, as was one of the plans. Again Thirdrail may have something more reliable.

 

[PVD]

That is still the most reasonable point. ADK, ML, EA, LSL, and the West of Hudson Empire Service could all pick up stock there. A single point where all of the displaced trains would still go through.

 

[Trogdor]

I would have thought Amtrak could find a way for such a profitable train. For many passengers who already have to transfer in CHI, a second transfer is a dealbreaker. The problem is that some people won't want to change trains multiple times. So I think that this summer, some cross-country passengers just won't take Amtrak.

What's all this talk about the Lake Shore being profitable? Sure, certain people on here seem convinced that the route makes money, but that conclusion often comes with completely dismissing a bunch of costs one doesn't like/agree with/etc.

Amtrak's audited financial reports show the route losing $33 million last year. Even if some of those costs are "shared" costs that aren't 100% because of the Lake Shore's operation, the route still takes in less revenue than it costs to run it.

As for "many" passengers who won't make a second transfer...that is limited to those boarding in NYP, CRT, POU and RHI who are traveling beyond CHI. How many people is that, compared to the whole route's ridership? I know a lot of folks on here like taking cross-country train journeys, but even on LD trains, IIRC, that's not a majority of the ridership. For those that do, how logical does this sentence sound: "I was going to take the train from New York to Seattle, but because I have to make an extra transfer in Albany, I just won't go."

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Can Amtrak run Superliners CHI-BOS since there are no tunnels since the train wouldn't have to go through NYP? If so,

The "LSL" runs CHI-BOS using Superliner equipment.

The "CL" runs CHI-NYP using Viewliner equipment.

Instead of the New York traffic that has to transfer it's the Washington traffic. Anyone going south of WAS would just transfer to the Silver trains at PHL then.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

Can Amtrak run Superliners CHI-BOS since there are no tunnels since the train wouldn't have to go through NYP? If so,

The "LSL" runs CHI-BOS using Superliner equipment.

The "CL" runs CHI-NYP using Viewliner equipment.

Instead of the New York traffic that has to transfer it's the Washington traffic. Anyone going south of WAS would just transfer to the Silver trains at PHL then.

A train could theoretically run Chicago-Boston or even Chicago-Philadelphia with Superliners, but it would not be able to access many of the stations because they have high-level platforms.

 

[stappend]

Can Amtrak run Superliners CHI-BOS since there are no tunnels since the train wouldn't have to go through NYP? If so,

The "LSL" runs CHI-BOS using Superliner equipment.

The "CL" runs CHI-NYP using Viewliner equipment.

Instead of the New York traffic that has to transfer it's the Washington traffic. Anyone going south of WAS would just transfer to the Silver trains at PHL then.

I don't think it could. There is a tunnel near the MA/NY border. Also, much of the CSX route isn't yet capable of carrying double stack containers, this is a project that the state of MA and CSX have been working to fix.

 

[west point]

Do not know exactly how the tracks are aligned so please enlighten. Why can't there be a connection between the Amtrak Hell Gate route and the CSX Hell Gate route near Hell Gate yard. Then Amtrak LSL trains or others could take the CSX from Hell Gate yard - Mott Haven yard - Connecting to MNRR commuter line at High Bridge Yard and then along MNRR thru Spuyten Duyvil and onto Albany. That would seem to be an important alternate not only for summer 2018 but onto the future in case the regular route to NYP is interrupted ?

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

I'm surprised I haven't heard the Road of Anthracite mentioned as an alternate route to Buffalo and on to the Northwest Territories.... yuk yuk yuk

 

[Palmetto]

Or send the pax down to WAS to take the Capital Ltd.

The LSL leaves NYC at 3:45 PM, The CL leaves WAS around 4 PM. A typical Amtrak connecting train would get you into WAS about 1-2 PM for the layover. That means a NY departure on the regional to WAS would have to be around 10-11 AM. This extends the NYP-CHI trip 5-6 hours to about 25 hours. Then there is no luggage service until you arrive in WAS so you are limited to the small carry on's. .That sounds like it won't be a good alternative. ..

I did that, and I think it's a great alternative. And being in sleeper class, I used the Met Lounge in DC. If one is in a hurry, then one should not be taking the train IMHO. If Amtrak wanted to, they could put a baggage car on an NER down to DC to solve the no-baggage-problem. I think they did that recently when the Crescent was terminating in DC instead of New York.

 

[Thirdrail7]

I would have thought Amtrak could find a way for such a profitable train. For many passengers who already have to transfer in CHI, a second transfer is a dealbreaker. The problem is that some people won't want to change trains multiple times. So I think that this summer, some cross-country passengers just won't take Amtrak.

What's all this talk about the Lake Shore being profitable? Sure, certain people on here seem convinced that the route makes money, but that conclusion often comes with completely dismissing a bunch of costs one doesn't like/agree with/etc.

Amtrak's audited financial reports show the route losing $33 million last year. Even if some of those costs are "shared" costs that aren't 100% because of the Lake Shore's operation, the route still takes in less revenue than it costs to run it.

As for "many" passengers who won't make a second transfer...that is limited to those boarding in NYP, CRT, POU and RHI who are traveling beyond CHI. How many people is that, compared to the whole route's ridership? I know a lot of folks on here like taking cross-country train journeys, but even on LD trains, IIRC, that's not a majority of the ridership. For those that do, how logical does this sentence sound: "I was going to take the train from New York to Seattle, but because I have to make an extra transfer in Albany, I just won't go."

Trogdor,

While you are correct in saying "many" LD passengers will not be impeded by making another transfer, there is something to be said for the more "local" markets. In other words, passengers traveling to/from points west of NYP headed to ALB and points north/west. That is a market that is susceptible to drop off and it is not a tiny market.

An additional transfer and a schelp to GCT may indeed be a deal breaker....particularly if it is a self transfer.

Can Amtrak run Superliners CHI-BOS since there are no tunnels since the train wouldn't have to go through NYP? If so,

The "LSL" runs CHI-BOS using Superliner equipment.

The "CL" runs CHI-NYP using Viewliner equipment.

Instead of the New York traffic that has to transfer it's the Washington traffic. Anyone going south of WAS would just transfer to the Silver trains at PHL then.

A train could theoretically run Chicago-Boston or even Chicago-Philadelphia with Superliners, but it would not be able to access many of the stations because they have high-level platforms.

It is not theoretically possible since Superliners can't fit in BBY or BOS or the S&I in Southampton Yard.

Do not know exactly how the tracks are aligned so please enlighten. Why can't there be a connection between the Amtrak Hell Gate route and the CSX Hell Gate route near Hell Gate yard. Then Amtrak LSL trains or others could take the CSX from Hell Gate yard - Mott Haven yard - Connecting to MNRR commuter line at High Bridge Yard and then along MNRR thru Spuyten Duyvil and onto Albany. That would seem to be an important alternate not only for summer 2018 but onto the future in case the regular route to NYP is interrupted ?

Where is Hell Gate Yard? What are you talking about? Are you talking about Oak Point Yard? If you are and you're talking about the Oak Point Connector, we've already discussed Metro-North is not agreeable to movements all over their territory. They are allowing access to GCT and that is it.

This goes for the Adirondack.

This goes for the Maple Leaf

This goes for the Ethan Allen

This goes for the Lake Shore Limited.

I'm surprised I haven't heard the Road of Anthracite mentioned as an alternate route to Buffalo and on to the Northwest Territories.... yuk yuk yuk

This thread has taken a weird turn. We were doing quite fine with the GCT thread. All of a sudden, people are crying like Nancy Kerrigan over a move that hasn't even been announced yet. It isn't even confirmed yet.

This could go the way of the Lake Shore Limited Reroute thread or the Refund thread that had everyone singing. Why not just wait and see what is actually happening?

 

[Thirdrail7]

Thirdrail can probably give a more definitive answer to the food service question, but I have heard from usually unreliable sources that the dormant commissary in ALB is going to be temporarily brought back on line. They would need to stock the NY section at ALB too if it is turned there, as was one of the plans. Again Thirdrail may have something more reliable.

I can guess, but as we indicated in the opening of this thread:

IF this occurs, it will happen at some point after (though close to) Memorial Day and last until Labor Day.

Extremely likely but there are still logistical issues being ironed out.

Now that things are firming up, there is great chance that NO Empire service will operate into NYP this summer. The majority will be diverted to GCT while some of the longer distance trains (e.g. the Adirondack) may terminate in ALB.

Keep a sharp watch.

Last I heard is that everything south of ALB will be shuttle service with everything north and west originating in either ALB or (in the case of the Lake Shore) BOS.

Can anyone say the return of the New England States?

There are still issues being worked out such as commissary, the availability of power, the forthcoming MARC cab cars (if they are still coming), crew qualifications. You may only see shuttle service GCT-ALB with everything operating North,West and East of ALB terminating and turning at ALB.

You may see cafe service filled from ALB or you may see Aramark trucked in to GCT if the trains do indeed run through. It is too early to tell...except for those who already have this entire undertaking mapped out, diverted and planned....with Superliners and mystery yards.

Perhaps you can ask them Jis.

 

[jis]

Perhaps you can ask them Jis.

We cannot possibly disagree that there is extreme entertainment value at least.

I particularly liked the bit about the Hell Gate Yard and the Superliners to Boston. Maybe we could sell tickets for viewing when Superliners run to Boston, should be some good fireworks.

 

[Blackwolf]

All this talk about being diverted onto a GCT shuttle... And not a peep about the FL9's coming back from the dead to lead it all.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

It is not theoretically possible since Superliners can't fit in BBY or BOS or the S&I in Southampton Yard.

Yet another city the Superliners don't work in. Great.

This thread has taken a weird turn. We were doing quite fine with the GCT thread. All of a sudden, people are crying like Nancy Kerrigan over a move that hasn't even been announced yet. It isn't even confirmed yet.

This could go the way of the Lake Shore Limited Reroute thread or the Refund thread that had everyone singing. Why not just wait and see what is actually happening?

It goes to show you while this seems like a three month inconvenience for NYP-CHI traffic, this is a way of life for Philly and New Jersey. Now maybe you get it.

 

[jis]

It goes to show you while this seems like a three month inconvenience for NYP-CHI traffic, this is a way of life for Philly and New Jersey. Now maybe you get it.

Don't know about Philadelphia. They are a bit weird in the Brotherly Love place anyway.

But I, who lived in NJ for over 40 years and am still on the Board of NJ-ARP, have had difficulty finding any Amtrak customer in New Jersey that cares enough to be worried about the lack of a train to Chicago via Philly. Most (i.e. those that are not hopping abroad the Cardinal), simply get on NJT and go to NY to catch the LSL, or if they want to do it cheaper, catch Amtrak and got to Washington to catch the Cap. Literally, at NJ-ARP we have tried multiple times to get anyone excited about the Pittsburgh through cars in NJ, and beyond a few dyed in the wool railfans no customer of Amtrak seems to care.

 

[Thirdrail7]

It goes to show you while this seems like a three month inconvenience for NYP-CHI traffic, this is a way of life for Philly and New Jersey. Now maybe you get it.

Get what? You're so fixated on your defunct train that your state refused to pay for that it has clouded your vision.

However, if you want to boss off, I'm always happy to oblige.

It would be a GREAT SHAME if all of these passengers had to arrange another transfer. After all, New York State SUPPORTED the operation of their long distance train. New York State and Vermont SUPPORTED their day train. New York and Amtrak LEASED FREIGHT TRACKS for 99 YEARS and raised the speed to support and maintain their route. With help from New York, Amtrak took over the Post Road Branch to make sure the Lake Shore Limited had a route to BOS. NYS is funding improvements from ALB-SDY as well various other places to ROC.

What has PA done?

Wait...I hear those pesky crickets again.

So, while some people are looking for options, NYS has put their money and interests first...instead of lip service. So, if those members want to complain, it won't help, but at least they can say they've tried.

What about you and PA? How is that letter to Stephen Bloom going? Remember him? His district is just across the river from Harrisburg! Did you get him to stop complaining about the expense of the second Pennsylvanian yet?

 

[StriderGDM]

BTW... unless you want all your passengers taking a pretty long walk... ALB can't do Superliners anymore (I mean in theory it could, but it'll be a walk along the brand new high-level platform to a ramp to the cars).

And again, this is all mental masturbation.

 

[jebr]

Or send the pax down to WAS to take the Capital Ltd.

The LSL leaves NYC at 3:45 PM, The CL leaves WAS around 4 PM. A typical Amtrak connecting train would get you into WAS about 1-2 PM for the layover. That means a NY departure on the regional to WAS would have to be around 10-11 AM. This extends the NYP-CHI trip 5-6 hours to about 25 hours. Then there is no luggage service until you arrive in WAS so you are limited to the small carry on's. .That sounds like it won't be a good alternative. ..

If you try to book an NYP - CHI trip via WAS Amtrak offers the following:

NYP 11:35 (ET) WAS 15:11 (ET) 125

WAS 1605 (ET) CHI 08:45 (CT) 29

That appears to be about 22 hours, not 25 hours as you claim.

The 11:35 departure from NYP doesn't show up as a suggested itinerary for most destinations beyond Chicago. It'll show for Dallas, but won't for Kansas City, Denver, Milwaukee, or St. Paul. Those passengers are pushed to the 9:35 AM regional instead. Either Amtrak doesn't really want to push that 11:35 connection for some reason (worried about reliability, although then why allow it at all?) or they don't see the need to build that connection.

It's the same in reverse to some extent; if you're just going from Chicago Amtrak will put you on the 3:05 PM Regional north, but from MSP you have to wait for the 4:02 PM train if you're going with the default connection. That one makes even less sense; there's some argument that maybe Amtrak doesn't want to have to rebuild a full cross-country itinerary just because of an hour-late Regional, but when the Regional's the last leg of the trip it really doesn't matter where you're starting from. (Of course, even with the later departure time you're still only arriving an hour later than the LSL, and it's almost certainly a more consistent arrival time since 90+% of the time the 30 > 178 connection is made and the 178 rarely arrives more than a few minutes late. The same can't be said for the LSL.)

Sure, you might be able to eke out an itinerary with the multi-city tool, but Amtrak explicitly states that connections aren't guaranteed if the itinerary is booked with that tool. Thus, for someone connecting beyond Chicago, assuming guaranteed connections you'll add an extra 6 hours to the journey to connect via WAS instead of taking the LSL on its standard timetable. (That's also the area where the hour earlier arrival into CHI doesn't shorten the journey at all, as that time simply becomes extra layover time in Chicago.) I'll admit that I'm currently planning to do NER - CL - EB both ways versus the LSL as the points savings is worth the time, but it's annoying to see that the layovers could be shorter if Amtrak would allow it.

 

[me_little_me]

I would have thought Amtrak could find a way for such a profitable train. For many passengers who already have to transfer in CHI, a second transfer is a dealbreaker. The problem is that some people won't want to change trains multiple times. So I think that this summer, some cross-country passengers just won't take Amtrak.

What's all this talk about the Lake Shore being profitable? Sure, certain people on here seem convinced that the route makes money, but that conclusion often comes with completely dismissing a bunch of costs one doesn't like/agree with/etc.

Amtrak's audited financial reports show the route losing $33 million last year. Even if some of those costs are "shared" costs that aren't 100% because of the Lake Shore's operation, the route still takes in less revenue than it costs to run it.

As for "many" passengers who won't make a second transfer...that is limited to those boarding in NYP, CRT, POU and RHI who are traveling beyond CHI. How many people is that, compared to the whole route's ridership? I know a lot of folks on here like taking cross-country train journeys, but even on LD trains, IIRC, that's not a majority of the ridership. For those that do, how logical does this sentence sound: "I was going to take the train from New York to Seattle, but because I have to make an extra transfer in Albany, I just won't go."

Trogdor,

While you are correct in saying "many" LD passengers will not be impeded by making another transfer, there is something to be said for the more "local" markets. In other words, passengers traveling to/from points west of NYP headed to ALB and points north/west. That is a market that is susceptible to drop off and it is not a tiny market.

An additional transfer and a schelp to GCT may indeed be a deal breaker....particularly if it is a self transfer.

Can Amtrak run Superliners CHI-BOS since there are no tunnels since the train wouldn't have to go through NYP? If so,

The "LSL" runs CHI-BOS using Superliner equipment.

The "CL" runs CHI-NYP using Viewliner equipment.

Instead of the New York traffic that has to transfer it's the Washington traffic. Anyone going south of WAS would just transfer to the Silver trains at PHL then.

A train could theoretically run Chicago-Boston or even Chicago-Philadelphia with Superliners, but it would not be able to access many of the stations because they have high-level platforms.

It is not theoretically possible since Superliners can't fit in BBY or BOS or the S&I in Southampton Yard.

Do not know exactly how the tracks are aligned so please enlighten. Why can't there be a connection between the Amtrak Hell Gate route and the CSX Hell Gate route near Hell Gate yard. Then Amtrak LSL trains or others could take the CSX from Hell Gate yard - Mott Haven yard - Connecting to MNRR commuter line at High Bridge Yard and then along MNRR thru Spuyten Duyvil and onto Albany. That would seem to be an important alternate not only for summer 2018 but onto the future in case the regular route to NYP is interrupted ?

Where is Hell Gate Yard? What are you talking about? Are you talking about Oak Point Yard? If you are and you're talking about the Oak Point Connector, we've already discussed Metro-North is not agreeable to movements all over their territory. They are allowing access to GCT and that is it.

This goes for the Adirondack.

This goes for the Maple Leaf

This goes for the Ethan Allen

This goes for the Lake Shore Limited.

I'm surprised I haven't heard the Road of Anthracite mentioned as an alternate route to Buffalo and on to the Northwest Territories.... yuk yuk yuk

This thread has taken a weird turn. We were doing quite fine with the GCT thread. All of a sudden, people are crying like Nancy Kerrigan over a move that hasn't even been announced yet. It isn't even confirmed yet.

This could go the way of the Lake Shore Limited Reroute thread or the Refund thread that had everyone singing. Why not just wait and see what is actually happening?

You're no fun at all. AUers have it all figured out so Amtrak should do what is suggested in this forum - even if everyone here disagrees with everyone else. Amtrak should try all of the recommendations. By that time the summer will be over.

 

[west point]

Here is what we did for CHI connections. Checked out departures out of CHI and found 2 consecutive days open. Then booked to CHI with a 1 day layover. When on the in bound to CHI it became apparent that we could make a same day connection called Amtrak agent and changed to same day connection. After some explaining got connection without any extra charge although we planned for paying as much more as the CHI hotel charge.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Experiment (Maybe make this a permanent experiment?)

Floridian (Superliner): 29/30: Combine Capitol Limited and Silver Star schedules, CHI-MIA. One seat ride between the cities.

Broadway Limited (Viewliner): 40/41: CHI-NYP via PGH/PHL

So instead of the Star between WAS-Florida, we send the CL down and use the spare Viewliner as a CHI-NYP train. We lose a NYP-Florida train but we'd still have the SM. We could extend the Palmetto to MIA in the meantime if we wish (that was suggested in the PRIIA).

 

[jis]

And where do you find the extra Superliners needed for the two additional consists?

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[Ryan]

<foamer_mode=“on”>

Obviously by cancelling the Empire Builder. Nobody rides that dog anyways, and the poor people that live out there don’t deserve Amtrak service anyways. If it doesn’t run through major cities, it’s crap.

</foamer_mode>

 

[StriderGDM]

<paf_mode=“on”>

Obviously by cancelling the Empire Builder. Nobody rides that dog anyways, and the poor people that live out there don’t deserve Amtrak service anyways. If it doesn’t run through PHL, it’s crap.

</paf_mode>

That is true. I can safely say I've never seen anyone, including myself, ride the Empire Builder!

 

[Trogdor]

Heres my idea, dont know if its doable or if its just crazy:

Run the Lake Shore CHI-BOS with a connecting train in ALB that runs to New York. Do it for 2-3 months, then return everything back to the way it was when the work is done.

Oh, and convert one of the Acela power cars to diesel so it can run through from Springfield, MA, all the way to Florida.