Empire Builder detour 10/15 to 11/3

[anir dendroica]

If you try to book on the EB to/from Rugby, Devils Lake, or Grand Forks between October 15 and November 3, a bus appears in the itinerary.

Per sources on the EB Yahoo group, the train will be detouring via New Rockford during this time on account of impassable track work at Devils Lake.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

It's good that there's going to be a track raise. This could improve reliability and prevent flooding.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

It's good that there's going to be a track raise. This could improve reliability and prevent flooding.

Does not prevent flooding - prevents the need to close the line due to flooding

 

[montana mike]

Might improve the timeliness--this area really slows the train down-has for many months!

 

[fairviewroad]

Does not prevent flooding - prevents the need to close the line due to flooding

Do you know enough about this project to be able to say that definitively? If a railroad line is at a certain level,

it may block the flow of waters. By raising it via a higher bridge or trestle, it could allow water to flow unimpeded,

thus preventing a flood. I don't know if that's true in this case, I'm only pointing out that possibility.

In any case, to all but hydrologists, high waters are considered a "flood"only when they start causing damage to property or

infrastructure. If this project prevents high water from damaging the tracks, you might indeed say it is preventing a flood.

I've not seen any reference to high Devils Lake waters threatening houses or other property. If the tracks are safe, then

is it really a "flood"?

 

[Agent]

This is great news! Well I suppose if you wanted to take the train directly to one of the detoured stations you'd be disappointed, but I've been waiting to hear they've started to raise the tracks for quite a while now.

 

[TraneMan]

tempted to book something to see this detour!

 

[fairviewroad]

tempted to book something to see this detour!

Won't it be largely in the overnight hours? I guess the westbound run would be partially in daylight, more so depending on

how late the train is running.

Wonder if Amtrak plans to put up a Service Disruption notice on its website, or just let passengers stumble into the detour

situation through the booking engine?

 

[PPorro]

I suspect this is the answer:

Devils Lake: Amtrak service on BNSF lines was interrupted in eastern North Dakota for

extended periods during spring and summer 2011 because of severe flooding in the Devils Lake

basin and Red River valley. Empire Builder service to Grand Forks, Devils Lake, and Rugby has

been threatened by a long-term rising of the lake level and flooding, especially on the north end

of the lake near Church’s Ferry. Devils Lake sits in a basin with no natural outlet, and the lake’s

surface area has expanded and water has consumed farmland and roads. Amtrak, BNSF, and

North Dakota DOT jointly funded an engineering study that found that the cost to raise the BNSF

line above flood levels is $77 million. An additional $20 million would be needed to restore

segments of track. Amtrak supported a North Dakota DOT application for a federal TIGER grant

to fund one-third of the projected cost. Amtrak and BNSF each have agreed to fund another

third. If nothing is done, the Empire Builder would be rerouted away from the area and run

directly from Fargo to Minot.

 

[Tracktwentynine]

Does not prevent flooding - prevents the need to close the line due to flooding

Do you know enough about this project to be able to say that definitively? If a railroad line is at a certain level,

it may block the flow of waters. By raising it via a higher bridge or trestle, it could allow water to flow unimpeded,

thus preventing a flood. I don't know if that's true in this case, I'm only pointing out that possibility.

In any case, to all but hydrologists, high waters are considered a "flood"only when they start causing damage to property or

infrastructure. If this project prevents high water from damaging the tracks, you might indeed say it is preventing a flood.

I've not seen any reference to high Devils Lake waters threatening houses or other property. If the tracks are safe, then

is it really a "flood"?

I guess you're not aware of the issue. Devils Lake is in a closed basin. The water checks in, but it doesn't check out. As a result, the water keeps rising.

The line is not being raised to prevent the tracks from being subject to periodic flooding. The line is being raised to prevent it from being permanently submerged and abandoned (which would prevent Amtrak from serving Grand Forks).

I realize you're making a hydological point about Swadian's statement. I don't think Swadian was saying that they were raising the line to prevent flooding (as in a levee), but that they were raising the line to prevent *it* from flooding. Anyway, Johnny was making the point to Swadian that the line is not subject to temporary floods, but that it will actually be permanently flooded.

The upgrade project will raise the level of the tracks to 1,461 feet above sea level. At 1,458 feet above sea level, Devils Lake will spill into the Sheyenne River through a coulee, something it hasn't done in about 1,000 years. The lake's current elevation is at 1,454.2 feet above sea level. The tracks were about a foot above the water line before the track raising project started.

 

[fairviewroad]

Does not prevent flooding - prevents the need to close the line due to flooding

Do you know enough about this project to be able to say that definitively? If a railroad line is at a certain level,

it may block the flow of waters. By raising it via a higher bridge or trestle, it could allow water to flow unimpeded,

thus preventing a flood. I don't know if that's true in this case, I'm only pointing out that possibility.

In any case, to all but hydrologists, high waters are considered a "flood"only when they start causing damage to property or

infrastructure. If this project prevents high water from damaging the tracks, you might indeed say it is preventing a flood.

I've not seen any reference to high Devils Lake waters threatening houses or other property. If the tracks are safe, then

is it really a "flood"?

I guess you're not aware of the issue. Devils Lake is in a closed basin. The water checks in, but it doesn't check out. As a result, the water keeps rising.

The line is not being raised to prevent the tracks from being subject to periodic flooding. The line is being raised to prevent it from being permanently submerged and abandoned (which would prevent Amtrak from serving Grand Forks).

I realize you're making a hydological point about Swadian's statement. I don't think Swadian was saying that they were raising the line to prevent flooding (as in a levee), but that they were raising the line to prevent *it* from flooding. Anyway, Johnny was making the point to Swadian that the line is not subject to temporary floods, but that it will actually be permanently flooded.

The upgrade project will raise the level of the tracks to 1,461 feet above sea level. At 1,458 feet above sea level, Devils Lake will spill into the Sheyenne River through a coulee, something it hasn't done in about 1,000 years. The lake's current elevation is at 1,454.2 feet above sea level. The tracks were about a foot above the water line before the track raising project started.

I'm generally aware of the situation but your explanation is a better summary than I've seen. Thanks. I guess I don't really consider the Devils Lake

situation to be a "flood" in the common usage of the word, which is to say a temporary, non-seasonal rising of waters over a normally dry area due to

weather conditions (e.g. a lot of rain). That doesn't seem to be the situation in Devils Lake, since the higher waters are neither seasonal nor temporary.

But yes, it would be correct to say that the tracks would be "flooded" were no action taken.

 

[anir dendroica]

The lake level is currently 1451.58 feet, down significantly from last year due to the drought now affecting the area. In all likelihood the lake will continue to rise in the coming years, but it would be a bit ironic if last year's high proves to be the peak, with drought and falling lake levels thereafter.

Probably not worth booking to see the detour. The scenery isn't particularly interesting and it is entirely in darkness both directions with the exception of the last 50 westbound miles into Minot (though more of the westbound miles will be in daylight if the train is delayed).

 

[TraneMan]

tempted to book something to see this detour!

Won't it be largely in the overnight hours? I guess the westbound run would be partially in daylight, more so depending on

how late the train is running.

Wonder if Amtrak plans to put up a Service Disruption notice on its website, or just let passengers stumble into the detour

situation through the booking engine?

True, Good point about the dark hours it travels that way.

 

[montana mike]

speaking of the EB-anyone know why the eastbound lost 4 hours last night in ND and MT? This is getting ridiculous!

 

[Trogdor]

Slow orders and heavy freight interference.

 

[Tumbleweed]

I hope this detour improves the OTP...I'll be on #8 October 24 and need to catch the CL CHI-WAS.......

 

[montana mike]

The freight traffic will only get worse. Perhaps AMTRAK may need to revisit the schedule? Since this is not a weather or one time issue. The number of energy related trains moving on this line is going to be something to behold in 2013.

Slow orders and heavy freight interference.

 

[anir dendroica]

My understanding is that most of the oil traffic is moving east. With the Devils Lake line back in service, BNSF will essentially have double track from Minot to St. Paul, which should be capable of moving the extra traffic without extreme delays. If the line gets busy, Amtrak ends up moving with the freight flow at 60 mph instead of 79 - enough to add a couple hours of delay but not that bad really.

The real bottleneck of the Hi-Line is the single track between Minot and Havre, MT. More trains on this section could be a real problem, but so far I haven't seen that in the forecast with the exception of the ~100 miles between Minot and the oilfields.

Mark

The freight traffic will only get worse. Perhaps AMTRAK may need to revisit the schedule? Since this is not a weather or one time issue. The number of energy related trains moving on this line is going to be something to behold in 2013.

Slow orders and heavy freight interference.

 

[montana mike]

Into this entire mix is the fact that Williston is still a "brief" stop. yet the conductors I have spoken with, and with my own experiences 4 times this summer on the EB (all of which were very late arriving in CHI) they all have said that the EB is spending anywhere from 15 to as much as 30 minutes in Williston now due to very heavy passenger loading and unloading, plus increased baggage handling

 

[George Harris]

since the higher waters are neither seasonal nor temporary.

That we really cannot say. If you look at long term changes in the Great Salt Lake over my lifetime it has gone between shrinkage to the point that shoreline facillities were high and dry to them being underwater and the railroad across the lake having to be raised. I can't recall the years separating these changes, but think it is on the order of 20 to 30. Historic lake levels could probably be found with some searching.

It could be Devil's Lake will rise to its overflow elevation (the railroad is being raised to be above that elevation) or it may reach a point where it quits rising and starts shrinking. Anyone who thinks they can predict the future including all the current "climate change" uproar is fooling themselves.

 

[fairviewroad]

Amtrak has posted a Service Alert about the detour. The only thing not previously reported on here is

the suspension of checked baggage service to GFK during the detour.

</h3>

<h3 class="copy_header">Empire Builder Trains 7/27 and 8/28 Detour Affects Service at Grand Forks, Devils Lake and Rugby
Effective October 14 through November 3, 2012

Track work being performed by BNSF Railroad will affect Trains 7/27 and 8/28 as described below.

Eastbound Train 8/28: October 14 - November 3

Westbound Train 7/27: October 15 - November 3

Trains 7/27 and 8/28 will travel along a detour route between Fargo and Minot and will not stop at any intermediate stations. Passengers will be provided alternate transportation to and from Grand Forks, Devils Lake and Rugby.

Checked Baggage Service Suspended at Grand Forks

During this period, checked baggage service will not be available at Grand Forks. Passengers may carry up to two pieces of baggage onto the train, each bag not exceeding 28" x 22" x 14" or 50 lbs. Other restrictions apply.