Empire Builder Timekeeping Struggles

[cpotisch]

I see 8(26) will likely pull into CHI just under 24 hours late, with 8(27) just hours behind! Wow. Meanwhile 7(27) is 18 hours late. I cannot see any train leaving from SEA on any sort of schedule today as well, with tomorrow being even worse. Amtrak is showing that today's #7 will only be 3 hours late leaving CHI. I guess they are going to try to turn around the very, very late #8(26) in only a few hours to get it back on the road some time this evening. So sorry for Amtrak on this mess, the EBs were finally settling into a steady and predictable 2-4 hour delay in their schedule when Mother Nature decided to make things even worse.

Meanwhile my BNSF folks are telling me the Hi-Line is so badly clogged with freight traffic that there is no decent solution this year at all and that if the economy keeps improving (and therefore their freight biz) things will be even worse next year. As I mentioned earlier the BNSF yard in WFH is absolutely jammed with trains at all hours now. BNSF had not planned on any major track additions next year, but now some at the railroad are suggesting that this will be needed to prevent a total mess on the Hi-Line. But many of the choke points are in areas (the mountains for example) that will require significant engineering and design effort that could easily take several years to complete. No quick fixes here.

If this whole fiasco continues for much longer and BNSF doesn't do anything about it, could Amtrak have probable cause to sue or anything like that?

 

[montana mike]

As for what just happened on CPR's tracks, that's an "act of God". BNSF is another story entirely, as Amtrak could argue that BNSF should have planned better. But, then again the economy hasn't grown this fast in almost 20 years, which is what BNSF would argue back. BNSF is making a total mess of the Hi-Line route this summer. My local BNSF contacts are absolutely frustrated at how decisions (and sometimes the lack thereof) by senior management have turned what could have been a manageable situation into something that has become a major crisis within the corporation. I was reminded that the "minders" from Berkshire Hathaway are constantly looking over the shoulders of BNSF management and are always looking for ways to cut costs, sometimes without regard to the consequences. This current fiasco may be the result of such "oversight". I can only hope that BH wakes up before the Hi-Line mess grinds to a complete halt.

 

[montana mike]

Today's #7 left CHI almost 5 hours late, so it may be a huge challenge to make it all the way to SEA/PDX without being at least 8 or 9 hours behind schedule, which of course would mean the departing 8/28 train that night would likely leave 4-5 hours late, continuing the saga. Today's 8 departed SEA under 2 hours behind, however, the congestion is substantial on the Hi-Line now and even with great dispatching this train should lose 4+ hours on its trek eastward. Hopefully, even with a late arrival in CHI in a couple days the folks there should be able to turn that trainset around to at least have a decent shot of leaving on time the following day.

Meanwhile, however, the EB currently in MN is now over 21 hours behind, and even if it is turned around in SPK, the eastbound journey will likely begin around 18 hours behind schedule at best. Assuming this train will lose at least 4 hours on the way back East, it will almost surely mean the next day's #7 will likely depart quite late as well, since 8/28 won't arrive until well after the scheduled departure of #7. Argh.

 

[montana mike]

Thursday AM Update: ALL 4 Builders are in major delay status this AM. It will be interesting to watch how Amtrak tries to get this route back to some semblance of a schedule over the coming week. Without any extra train sets, plus the protracted (4-5 hour) delays enroute due to the continuing BNSF issues, this will be quite a challenge.

 

[cpotisch]

Thursday AM Update: ALL 4 Builders are in major delay status this AM. It will be interesting to watch how Amtrak tries to get this route back to some semblance of a schedule over the coming week. Without any extra train sets, plus the protracted (4-5 hour) delays enroute due to the continuing BNSF issues, this will be quite a challenge.

There are only four EB consists? I thought it was at least six?

 

[jebr]

Thursday AM Update: ALL 4 Builders are in major delay status this AM. It will be interesting to watch how Amtrak tries to get this route back to some semblance of a schedule over the coming week. Without any extra train sets, plus the protracted (4-5 hour) delays enroute due to the continuing BNSF issues, this will be quite a challenge.

There are only four EB consists? I thought it was at least six?

There's five sets. One's in Chicago right now being turned into this afternoon's outbound 7.

 

[cpotisch]

Thursday AM Update: ALL 4 Builders are in major delay status this AM. It will be interesting to watch how Amtrak tries to get this route back to some semblance of a schedule over the coming week. Without any extra train sets, plus the protracted (4-5 hour) delays enroute due to the continuing BNSF issues, this will be quite a challenge.

There are only four EB consists? I thought it was at least six?

There's five sets. One's in Chicago right now being turned into this afternoon's outbound 7.

How do they only manage with five sets? The Starlight is a 12 hour shorter trip and it needs six.

 

[keelhauled]

Day one, depart Chicago. Day two, in ND/MT. Day three, arrive and turn in Seattle/Portland. Day four, in MT/ND. Day five, arrive Chicago. Turn overnight and start the cycle again on day six.

 

[jebr]

Thursday AM Update: ALL 4 Builders are in major delay status this AM. It will be interesting to watch how Amtrak tries to get this route back to some semblance of a schedule over the coming week. Without any extra train sets, plus the protracted (4-5 hour) delays enroute due to the continuing BNSF issues, this will be quite a challenge.

There are only four EB consists? I thought it was at least six?

There's five sets. One's in Chicago right now being turned into this afternoon's outbound 7.

How do they only manage with five sets? The Starlight is a 12 hour shorter trip and it needs six.

Where did you find out the Starlight has six sets? I'm pretty sure it has four sets; in the era of the daily PPC they had five PPCs, four in rotation (one in each set) and one as a spare.

Each Builder set has a five day rotation:

Day 1: leave Chicago as #7

Day 2: full day as #7

Day 3: morning as #7/#27, rotate in SEA/PDX to #8/#28

Day 4: full day as #8

Day 5: arrive Chicago as #8

 

[montana mike]

Gosh, if the airlines cut things this close with equipment (and I know Amtrak doesn't have a lot of say in how much they do have, given Congressional oversight), fewer flights would be on time. Machines break down, even very reliable machines. I am amazed that Amtrak is able to keep things going as well as they have, given the very tough equipment constraints.

An extra train set would have been very instrumental in helping to restore decent timekeeping on the EB route if it had been available on the West coast, but given the reality as stated in the above messages that wasn't an option.

I see that Amtrak appears to be running 7/27 all the way to SEA/PDX, so shall we assume that today's scheduled departure will be annulled, given the fact that 7/27 will not likely drive at those destinations until around 9 AM tomorrow morning, almost one day behind schedule (gee, just like VIA Rail!!) If #7 behind the very, very late #7 doesn't lose too much more time, both SEA and PDX may have two EB's in station at the same time! I wonder how many times that has occurred?

 

[Palmetto]

The lack of equipment presents problems all over the system. It's the reason why they have to put commuter rail cars into service over the Thanksgiving weekend. But fear not: with the demise of several trains on the horizon, there'll be lots of protect equipment for the remaining trains.

 

[montana mike]

I hope that doesn't happen, but I have been following the SWC problems and I can't see how anyone would take that train, having to use a multi-hour bus bridge in the future. .

Airlines like to keep their fleets up to date and the main carriers have fleets that are often 10 years old or less. Oh, how we wish that would be the case for the Superliners!!!

 

[montana mike]

I was curious as to how the EB's have been doing this Summer (from June thru present). The average arrival delay in CHI for #8 for this entire Summer has been 4 hours and 11 minutes. Interestingly, 4 hours is what my local BNSF guy told me was the expected arrival delay into CHI that was shared with Amtrak officials this Spring. Perhaps maybe pure coincidence, but interesting nevertheless.

 

[railiner]

The lack of equipment presents problems all over the system. It's the reason why they have to put commuter rail cars into service over the Thanksgiving weekend. But fear not: with the demise of several trains on the horizon, there'll be lots of protect equipment for the remaining trains.

Putting commuter cars into service in places like the NEC dates back to early in the last century, when there was an abundance of equipment normally. On the PRR, especially, they were famous for never turning people away with a "sold out" sign, and made an heroic effort to serve all who came over the busiest holiday periods...

True "mass transportation"...

 

[jis]

It is much easier to do that when all your trains are not all reserved though. [emoji57]

 

[railiner]

It is much easier to do that when all your trains are not all reserved though. [emoji57]

That is the point...."all reserved", means you are limiting sales, and turning people away.

Serving all who come...takes much more effort.

 

[cpotisch]

There are disadvantages to having everything be unreserved, though. You can end up with absolutely packed trains with standees, and you can end up with empty trains which cost way more to run than the revenue they're taking in. So it's definitely not a perfect system, even if they put in "much more effort'

 

[jis]

There are disadvantages to having everything be unreserved, though. You can end up with absolutely packed trains with standees, and you can end up with empty trains which cost way more to run than the revenue they're taking in. So it's definitely not a perfect system, even if they put in "much more effort'

Who said anything about everything being unreserved?

Railroads the world over are able to run trains with a mix of reserved and unreserved cars. American ingenuity should be able to manage that in a flash

 

[cpotisch]

There are disadvantages to having everything be unreserved, though. You can end up with absolutely packed trains with standees, and you can end up with empty trains which cost way more to run than the revenue they're taking in. So it's definitely not a perfect system, even if they put in "much more effort'

Who said anything about everything being unreserved?

Railroads the world over are able to run trains with a mix of reserved and unreserved cars. American ingenuity should be able to manage that in a flash

I was mainly responding to this:

The lack of equipment presents problems all over the system. It's the reason why they have to put commuter rail cars into service over the Thanksgiving weekend. But fear not: with the demise of several trains on the horizon, there'll be lots of protect equipment for the remaining trains.

Putting commuter cars into service in places like the NEC dates back to early in the last century, when there was an abundance of equipment normally. On the PRR, especially, they were famous for never turning people away with a "sold out" sign, and made an heroic effort to serve all who came over the busiest holiday periods...

True "mass transportation"...

 

[tim49424]

More rain coming this weekend to the areas affected by flooding in Wisconsin.

 

[montana mike]

I saw that as well. I hope we do not have a repeat of last week. Perhaps this next round of heavy rain will not be as severe.

 

[ehbowen]

There are disadvantages to having everything be unreserved, though. You can end up with absolutely packed trains with standees, and you can end up with empty trains which cost way more to run than the revenue they're taking in. So it's definitely not a perfect system, even if they put in "much more effort'

It's true that Pennsy was famous for "getting you there" during World War II's chaos. However, "getting you there" often meant you riding in a rolling wreck which would have been condemned a few years previously or even a converted box car. I wouldn't be surprised to find that a lot of these travelers were among those who said, "Never again!" when transportation options opened back up again after the war.

 

[tim49424]

I saw that as well. I hope we do not have a repeat of last week. Perhaps this next round of heavy rain will not be as severe.

The problem is, it's not going to take nearly as much rain to have a repeat of last week. The rivers are swollen, the ground saturated still, so even a moderate amount will wreak havoc, I'm afraid. This is the latest map from the National Weather Service in Milwaukee.



(The light green are flood warnings, dark green flood watches.)

 

[Steve4031]

The Empire Builder has been doing better the past few days.

 

[jebr]

Yeah, I've been following it the past few days and it seems to be doing pretty well over the last couple weeks. A fair amount of on-time (or less than an hour late) departures out of MSP for #8 as well, leading to an on-time departure out of LSE with the hour pad for CP track work.

(Of course, it was looking better today until it's been stopped for the past 40 minutes or so attaching private cars. Still should be close to on-time into Chicago thanks to padding.)