Empire Builder turnaround at Portland

[OldCond]

Hi everyone. Within the next month I'll be coming to Portland OR on the Portland section of the Empire Builder, Train 27 and turning back out that afternoon on the eastbound Builder, Train 28 with an expected 6hr, 35min layover. This is a bucket list trip and I'm riding the train for the scenery and not to visit Portland at this time. My question is: if train 27 becomes excessively late do I need to consider getting off a station or two east of Portland or is the equipment that comes in on Train 27 the same that will go out on that day's 28? I know that a six hour+ layover should be plenty of time but I've noticed that Amtrak trains run late once in a while. Thanks for any advice.

 

[JayPea]

27 turns in Portland to become 28. And I have seen them turn it very quickly.

 

[OldCond]

Thanks! I was concerned that if they had a second set of cars at Portland they could run 28 on time even If 27 hadn't arrived yet.

 

[oregon pioneer]

Check with your SCA.

They can't run a #28 without staff, and there is no staff base in PDX. So your SCA will be able to tell you if they expect to be turning with you, and how long they expect it will take!

 

[zephyr17]

The consist does not layover at Portland. Inbound 27 consist is turned to be outbound 28 that afternoon.

I do not know about the Chicago based OBS crew. They might turn with the consist or may layover overnight and go out the next day on that day's consist. They do not need an OBS base to layover at an away terminal.

If 7/27 becomes very excessively late they will terminate it in Spokane and turn the train there. They will bustitute passengers between Spokane and Portland/Seattle. If that happens, the eastbound and westbound buses may not be the same buses nor will the eastbound buses necessarily wait for the westbound ones.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

The consist does not layover at Portland. Inbound 27 consist is turned to be outbound 28 that afternoon.

I do not know about the Chicago based OBS crew. They might turn with the consist or may layover overnight and go out the next day on that day's consist. They do not need an OBS base to layover at an away terminal.

I believe OBS go from base back to base (then have days off before their next trip). The T&E have layovers since they do not ride the train end to end.

 

[zephyr17]

I believe OBS go from base back to base (then have days off before their next trip). The T&E have layovers since they do not ride the train end to end.

Not sure about that at Portland. Have heard it both ways there. Most other LD OBS crew runs that I know about have an overnight layover at their away terminal. If the CHI-PDX-CHI run doesn't, that's a pretty brutal schedule, with three consecutive 6am-10/11pm days.

Most places the OBS away terminal is an overnight turn for the consist anyway, Chicago for the SW Chief and Seattle Builder, Emeryville for the Zephyr, Seattle for the Starlight, NYC for the Silvers, Crescent, and LSL. Portland is the only way terminal where the consist itself doesn't turn overnight. The OBS crew isn't yoked to a particular set of cars and there isn't any reason that they must turn with the consist. I imagine the union has something to say about the number of consecutive long days. Even the transcontinental Sunset only had two consecutive 6 am to 10/11 pm days. One of the reasons it was cut back from Miami to Orlando was that the length of the LAX-MIA run was such that they had to change the OBS crew at NOL. LAX-ORL shortened the time enough that the LA based crew ran through to Orlando.

 

[Triley]

Check with your SCA.

They can't run a #28 without staff, and there is no staff base in PDX. So your SCA will be able to tell you if they expect to be turning with you, and how long they expect it will take!

The consist does not layover at Portland. Inbound 27 consist is turned to be outbound 28 that afternoon.

I do not know about the Chicago based OBS crew. They might turn with the consist or may layover overnight and go out the next day on that day's consist. They do not need an OBS base to layover at an away terminal.

If 7/27 becomes very excessively late they will terminate it in Spokane and turn the train there. They will bustitute passengers between Spokane and Portland/Seattle. If that happens, the eastbound and westbound buses may not be the same buses nor will the eastbound buses necessarily wait for the westbound ones.

I believe OBS go from base back to base (then have days off before their next trip). The T&E have layovers since they do not ride the train end to end.

The crew that works 27 laysover until the following day's 28. The equipment does not, and goes back out immediately. There is no spare equipment in PDX (not really anywhere to keep an entire trainset), which is why when 27 heavily delayed, they occasionally short-turn the equipment in SPK and do a bus bridge. 7's equipment doesn't layover in SEA either, it goes back out same day. While there is spare equipment in SEA, it's not enough to put together a full trainset for 8 (I mean, I guess there's been equipment lately due to the annulled 11 equipment sitting around).

 

[Triley]

Not sure about that at Portland. Have heard it both ways there. Most other LD OBS crew runs that I know about have an overnight layover at their away terminal. If the CHI-PDX-CHI run doesn't, that's a pretty brutal schedule, with three consecutive 6am-10/11pm days.

Most places the OBS away terminal is an overnight turn for the consist anyway, Chicago for the SW Chief and Seattle Builder, Emeryville for the Zephyr, Seattle for the Starlight, NYC for the Silvers, Crescent, and LSL. Portland is the only way terminal where the consist itself doesn't turn overnight. The OBS crew isn't yoked to a particular set of cars and there isn't any reason that they must turn with the consist. I imagine the union has something to say about the number of consecutive long days. Even the transcontinental Sunset only had two consecutive 6 am to 10/11 pm days. One of the reasons it was cut back from Miami to Orlando was that the length of the LAX-MIA run was such that they had to change the OBS crew at NOL. LAX-ORL shortened the time enough that the LA based crew ran through to Orlando.

Though most of this is correct, both the Auto Train (in Sanford) and Capital Limited (in CHI) turn same day, as do the crews.

If I remember correctly, the Sunset used to be something like....11 days on/8 days off, or something like that. Works for me! With one week of vacation, I could get 27 days off (theoretically, if the extra board was able to handle filling the jobs, and I wasn't needed).

 

[OldCond]

Thanks everyone, for the information. Hopefully the trip will go smoothly. I'll find out in a couple of weeks!

 

[Cal]

Most other LD OBS crew runs that I know about have an overnight layover at their away terminal.

Portland is the only way terminal where the consist itself doesn't turn overnight.

The Cardinal, I believe, has a same day turn with the same OBS. My SCA a week ago said she leaves the same day back to New York.

 

[west point]

That kind of a turn would seem to indicate a shortage of OBS.

 

[Triley]

That kind of a turn would seem to indicate a shortage of OBS.

Though there is a massive shortage company why, that is not why OBS turns back same day. Simply put, crews do not layover at turnaround points for 2+ days waiting to work their return trip. With how the train schedule is designed, it's either they go back the same day, or the next.

The crew that arrives in to CHI on Monday goes out Tuesday, because that's the next train. The crews that arrive on Thursday and Saturday go back same day.

Edit: Though this post is what generally happens (crews turning back same day, or next day), there have been exceptions. Most recently, during Covid there were certain days that when you went out, you'd lay over until 2 days later. But this isn't common practice.

 

[Chris I]

When we took the Builder a few years back, the inbound was 10 hours late. They turned it and departed about 5 hours late from Portland. I think you are safe staying on all the way to Portland, because they have no other equipment to send out in its place.

 

[WWW]

The present consist as I see it thru MSP is the two locomotives - a baggage car - 5 cars and a Lounge car - All this designated to/from Seattle ---
the end 3 cars are switched off at Spokane {where 8 & 28 - 7 & 27 junction} for Portland needing only an locomotive to finish the PDX trip.
What compounds this is if private cars for Seattle are attached on the end - a double movement

 

[jis]

The present consist as I see it thru MSP is the two locomotives - a baggage car - 5 cars and a Lounge car - All this designated to/from Seattle ---
the end 3 cars are switched off at Spokane {where 8 & 28 - 7 & 27 junction} for Portland needing only an locomotive to finish the PDX trip.
What compounds this is if private cars for Seattle are attached on the end - a double movement

Interesting! In the past the Diner went to Seattle and the SSL to Portland.

 

[WWW]

Interesting! In the past the Diner went to Seattle and the SSL to Portland.

I was just guessing at what happens at Spokane ?
- the SSL is car number 7 in the consist -
(L-L-B-S-S-S-S-S-SSL-S-S-S)
The S's all look alike the SSL has B-I-G windows
This is the consist that I see transit MSP (both directions)
The SSL could easily be with the PDX segment

Reader/member input as to what happens at Spokane appreciated


FYI - there has been a great deal of activity recently -
EXTRA cars and even locomotives
Repositioning equipment ? Maintenance ?
Upgrading of cars refurbishment ?
Something to do with the CS Bridge disruption ?
Restart of the schedule to a full 7 day operation ?

Even the addition of private cars -
the 261 equipment i.e. to/from CHI-MSP

 

[jis]

Indeed it would be hard to know what happens in Spokane to a train viewed in MSP.

Back when I traveled the consist was roughly:

(L-L-B-TS-S-S-D-C-C-XX-SSL-C-CB-S)

Where C - Coach, S - Sleeper, TS - Trasition Sleeper, D - Diner, B - Baggage, CB Coach-Baggage and XX is the point where the train was split at Spokane, the portion between the Locos and the XX going to Seattle, and the portion between the XX and the rear going to Portland..

In peak season there was also an additional Coach added as the last car of the train behind the Portland Sleeper, between CHI and MSP.

It is quite possible that things are very very different now.

 

[oregon pioneer]

Jis, that is what the train was still like the last time I took it in Dec 2019, just pre-pandemic. I am always on the PDX section, so always just the lounge west of SPK. Here are photos of the Seattle section pulling away with a coach on the rear, and then attaching the loco to the Portland section at SPK, with the SSL on the left/back (from a very late 2018 westbound trip):


I guess the bottom line is, if you're late and the equipment goes all the way to PDX, you might as well stay with the train. If the equipment does NOT go to PDX, you have to make a choice between taking the bus to the next stop (Pasco), where at least it's daylight (depending on how late you are...), or just getting off the train in Spokane, and staying there while it's turned. I don't know what there is to do at the station in SPK, but PSC is far enough from anything that it would be a boring place to wait for a return bus.

And, don't forget, if you don't go all the way to PDX, you need to call Amtrak and tell them where you will actually be boarding, so they can modify your ticket. You don't want them to cancel your tickets, just because you didn't board at the origin station.

 

[OldCond]

Jis, that is what the train was still like the last time I took it in Dec 2019, just pre-pandemic. I am always on the PDX section, so always just the lounge west of SPK. Here are photos of the Seattle section pulling away with a coach on the rear, and then attaching the loco to the Portland section at SPK, with the SSL on the left/back (from a very late 2018 westbound trip):
View attachment 23858 View attachment 23857

I guess the bottom line is, if you're late and the equipment goes all the way to PDX, you might as well stay with the train. If the equipment does NOT go to PDX, you have to make a choice between taking the bus to the next stop (Pasco), where at least it's daylight (depending on how late you are...), or just getting off the train in Spokane, and staying there while it's turned. I don't know what there is to do at the station in SPK, but PSC is far enough from anything that it would be a boring place to wait for a return bus.

And, don't forget, if you don't go all the way to PDX, you need to call Amtrak and tell them where you will actually be boarding, so they can modify your ticket. You don't want them to cancel your tickets, just because you didn't board at the origin station.

Good advice, thank you. I hope Spokane has good cell phone service or the station has a ticket agent on duty those hours if I would need to modify my ticket. Thanks again.

 

[Cal]

Indeed it would be hard to know what happens in Spokane to a train viewed in MSP.

Back when I traveled the consist was roughly:

(L-L-B-TS-S-S-D-C-C-XX-SSL-C-CB-S)

Where C - Coach, S - Sleeper, TS - Trasition Sleeper, D - Diner, B - Baggage, CB Coach-Baggage and XX is the point where the train was split at Spokane, the portion between the Locos and the XX going to Seattle, and the portion between the XX and the rear going to Portland..

In peak season there was also an additional Coach added as the last car of the train behind the Portland Sleeper, between CHI and MSP.

It is quite possible that things are very very different now.

Last October the SSL, two coaches and sleeper went to Portland. Rest of the consist to Seattle,

 

[zephyr17]

Right now the Seattle section is B TS S S D C

The SSL has always gone and is still going to Portland.

I do wonder what the heck they are thinking not having the usual second coach.

 

[WWW]

OK - some of the bi-level cars are coaches and others are sleepers - - -
From a distance they all look the same - - -
I am viewing them from the St. Paul Union Depot Train Camera about 100 or so feet away - LINK:

Train Cams | UNION DEPOT

Camera #1 looking west Mississippi River Robert St Bridge is the only one of interest here.
Have to monitor the progress of trains 7 & 8 and gauge when they are going to make an appearance -
Train 7 scheduled to leave 10:20 pm
Train 8 scheduled to arrive 07:43 am (Good Luck on this almost always late trip)

zephyr17 just posted the Seattle consist B TS S S D C
What tell tale feature am I looking for to see the difference in cars ?
It appears that some cars have more windows on the lower level - coaches or sleepers ?
At night some of the cars are all lit up presume that one is the Diner ?
And of course the car in the middle with the B-I-G upper deck windows is the SSL.
cal posted the Portland consist L SSL C C S

I would go down trackside (locally) for a closer look to check it out -
but as rule Amtrak doesn't want sight-seeing folks there -
told me so - typical Amtrak not user friendly !

 

[Cal]

OK - some of the bi-level cars are coaches and others are sleepers - - -
From a distance they all look the same - - -
I am viewing them from the St. Paul Union Depot Train Camera about 100 or so feet away - LINK:

Train Cams | UNION DEPOT

Camera #1 looking west Mississippi River Robert St Bridge is the only one of interest here.
Have to monitor the progress of trains 7 & 8 and gauge when they are going to make an appearance -
Train 7 scheduled to leave 10:20 pm
Train 8 scheduled to arrive 07:43 am (Good Luck on this almost always late trip)

zephyr17 just posted the Seattle consist B TS S S D C
What tell tale feature am I looking for to see the difference in cars ?
It appears that some cars have more windows on the lower level - coaches or sleepers ?
At night some of the cars are all lit up presume that one is the Diner ?
And of course the car in the middle with the B-I-G upper deck windows is the SSL.
cal posted the Portland consist L SSL C C S

I would go down trackside (locally) for a closer look to check it out -
but as rule Amtrak doesn't want sight-seeing folks there -
told me so - typical Amtrak not user friendly !

I think this does it best.

 

[zephyr17]

Diners have blanked/missing windows in the middle of the car. Those and Sightseer Lounges with the big windows are the easiest to spot from a distance.

Transdorms behind the bag have no upper level end door.

I don't know any easy spotting feature from a distance between sleepers and coaches. I cheat and depend on position. Sleepers are forward on the Seattle section of the EB and the diner marks the end of the sleepers. Anything following the diner is a coach.

Coach bags have a plug door instead of windows on the lower level.

The Sightseer marks the beginning of the Portland section. The last car is the Portland sleeper and there's going to be a coach bag.

Find another place to look other than SPUD. How is access to the old Midway Station on the MInnesota Commercial? The Builder goes really slow through there.

Amtrak cares not a bit if I park at the Everett, WA station and watch the train pull in.