Equipment order expected in January

[Green Maned Lion]

That's not true. Not all cars make usable sleepers. The Amfleets don't make good sleepers, for instance. This would ensure all proposals are capable of being a sleeper.

Then Bombardier would be the best for the contract.

Besides who says they're going to order sleepers and commuters from the same company? I STILL say its asinine to order Superliner III sleepers before the Viewliner II contracts are even ordered. You risk some politician moving to cut Amtrak's budget and eventually the know-nothings on Capitol Hill will say "hey, you just got new cars, you don't need anymore" and BAM the Viewliner II order gets reduced or cut.

.. But they aren't ordering them. They are simply requesting an option for an order. An option means that the company agrees to, if requested, sell Amtrak more cars of that design at a given price. By putting such options into the order, once Amtrak sells congress on the (seriously needed) bi-levels for midwestern corridors, they can then bring up to Congress the possibility of buying 70 cars at a marginal price (Say 2.5 million a car?) which makes them a lot more attractive then separately tooling up a different production line (in which case, say more like $4-5 million a car at this volume).

As for who is best for the contract? The one that can build them to the quality Amtrak desires and to the specification Amtrak desire for the lowest price is the one best for the order. Alstom and Bombardier are both not all that well known for the quality of their products, but somehow I don't see Talgo tackling Superliner-sized cars, and Kawasaki doesn't have the experience with this type of design.

The mention by GML of purchasing single-level cars to run on the reinstated western trains got the gears in my mind going.

I said nothing of the sort. I was talking about bi-levels closer in design to the Surfliners then the Superliners.

gml, please,spare me, can you explain why the surfliners look the way they do? Why do the nocal san joaquin look the way they do? Why go the way of EMD when Amtrak have plenty of GEs around? Why did WaDot choose a different paint scheme or add wings to the talgos if aesthics are not important? Truth be told is if the midwest states are fronting money for equipment you better looks matter. If it did not the surfliner would still be the san diegan with Genesis power and Superliners in phase four paintwbeei

If the states were buying these cars, you'd have a solid point there. But they aren't. This is a federal proposal. California wanted to buy their own equipment, and so they did. Wisconsin ditto, Washington double ditto.

The Genesis locomotives are adequate for hauling the current midwest commitment- the cars ordered aren't for starting new midwest trains, they are for displacing single level equipment to the northeast to be hauled by electric locos. Amtrak isn't going to replace the Genesis until they get as unreliable as the F40s did.

 

[wrjensen]

But there are things that could prevent making the AT longer, namely will the host CSX accept a longer train

How does the length of the present Auto Train compare with CSX's longest freight trains on that route?

and the ever present problem of overloading the HEP system.

CSX Does not seem to run long trains north of Richmond and the trains that run from FL north thru DC are never that long. I heard from a few people the they prefer to run more shorter trains then the one long one, unlike their western counterparts.

 

[printman2000]

GML, if what you say turns out to be true, that would be indeed very very good news. I look forward to such.

If anything he;s said in this thread turns out to be right I'll eat my shoe for dinner.

I just heard from one of the horse's mouth a few moments back that there are no takers for the Viewliners RFP yet, so I would be surprised if an actual order for Viewliners is announced in Jan.

So what happens if no one accepts the RFP?

 

[Long Train Runnin']

GML, if what you say turns out to be true, that would be indeed very very good news. I look forward to such.

If anything he;s said in this thread turns out to be right I'll eat my shoe for dinner.

I just heard from one of the horse's mouth a few moments back that there are no takers for the Viewliners RFP yet, so I would be surprised if an actual order for Viewliners is announced in Jan.

So what happens if no one accepts the RFP?

They can't build new Viewliner II cars? :lol:

I guess they can change the RFP, or extended the date.

 

[TVRM610]

It would actually make more sense for Amtrak to order more superliners then the viewliners. If they were available, superliners could be used on the Cardinal, and one of the Silver Trains could be dropped to DC and use Superliners. This would free up enough single level equipment to cover current needs. Meanwhile, all of the other extra Superliners could be used for expanded service throughout the country.

Do we need both? yes. But just saying, it makes alot more sense for Amtrak to order more superliner equipment right now.

 

[AlanB]

No, it doesn't make sense to go with Superliners. Yes, Amtrak does need more single level sleepers, but that part of the order is more of an after thought/niceity. They need new single level dining cars and baggage cars, so they must order those cars now. So while they're doing that, it makes sense to beef up the sleeper side too, and hopefully make the contract more attractive to the builders.

More Superliner's won't fix either the baggage problem or the diner problem.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

According to the latest NARP Blog:

An Amtrak spokesman tells the Train Riders Association of California (TRAC) that Amtrak will make a “dramatic and bold” announcement on new equipment purchases in January, reports NARP Council member Jim Loomis. We should expect nothing less.

If they were to announce that all the midwest bilevel coaches for corridor use will be EMUs that can operate off 25 kV/60hz overhead power, as well as off rechargeable battery arrays scaled up from what is in the Tesla Roadster / Tesla Model S, and that they are planning to install sufficient overhead power to be able to keep those batteries charged without needing to ever run diesel locomotives to haul those cars, I would consider that dramatic and bold.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

It would actually make more sense for Amtrak to order more superliners then the viewliners. If they were available, superliners could be used on the Cardinal, and one of the Silver Trains could be dropped to DC and use Superliners. This would free up enough single level equipment to cover current needs. Meanwhile, all of the other extra Superliners could be used for expanded service throughout the country.
Do we need both? yes. But just saying, it makes alot more sense for Amtrak to order more superliner equipment right now.

In addition to what Alan said, the Cardinal needs NYC ridership. Without NYC ridership goes down, IIRC, 30%. Same story with the Silvers, you could even send the Palmetto back to MIA and make a third Silver out of NYC and it would work!

 

[TVRM610]

No, it doesn't make sense to go with Superliners. Yes, Amtrak does need more single level sleepers, but that part of the order is more of an after thought/niceity. They need new single level dining cars and baggage cars, so they must order those cars now. So while they're doing that, it makes sense to beef up the sleeper side too, and hopefully make the contract more attractive to the builders.
More Superliner's won't fix either the baggage problem or the diner problem.

I'm saying what if Amtrak were to be faced with a one or the other decision? If Amtrak had one shot at a big car order I think they need superliners more than single level equipment. The western trains could have baggage space in superliners if needed... that leaves us with diners that could be replaced with amfleet "diner-lite" or whatever they call them cars if needed.

Honestly I have no idea what amtrak's big and bold announcement will be. I hope it's new single level and superliner equipment since both are greatly needed for service expansion.

 

[wrjensen]

What happens to the Horizon Cars? If the get new bi-level cars for the Midwest where do this cars go? I would guess to NC.

 

[jis]

If they were to announce that all the midwest bilevel coaches for corridor use will be EMUs that can operate off 25 kV/60hz overhead power, as well as off rechargeable battery arrays scaled up from what is in the Tesla Roadster / Tesla Model S, and that they are planning to install sufficient overhead power to be able to keep those batteries charged without needing to ever run diesel locomotives to haul those cars, I would consider that dramatic and bold.

And why would that make sense?

 

[MattW]

No, it doesn't make sense to go with Superliners. Yes, Amtrak does need more single level sleepers, but that part of the order is more of an after thought/niceity. They need new single level dining cars and baggage cars, so they must order those cars now. So while they're doing that, it makes sense to beef up the sleeper side too, and hopefully make the contract more attractive to the builders.
More Superliner's won't fix either the baggage problem or the diner problem.

I'm saying what if Amtrak were to be faced with a one or the other decision? If Amtrak had one shot at a big car order I think they need superliners more than single level equipment. The western trains could have baggage space in superliners if needed... that leaves us with diners that could be replaced with amfleet "diner-lite" or whatever they call them cars if needed.

Honestly I have no idea what amtrak's big and bold announcement will be. I hope it's new single level and superliner equipment since both are greatly needed for service expansion.

From what I understand (partly by reading on here) the Heritage fleet is about to fly apart at the seams, the Superliners, not so much. Given the choice between supplementing a fleet that's ok for now and a fleet that might break if the engineer goes into Notch 8 too fast, I'd choose the latter.

 

[cpamtfan]

Yes, the Superliners are only 30 years old at the oldest, while the Heritage Baggages and Diners are as old as 60! New western bi-level cars need to wait no matter what.

 

[The Metropolitan]

What happens to the Horizon Cars? If the get new bi-level cars for the Midwest where do this cars go? I would guess to NC.

I was wondering the same thing. That's a heckuva lot of cars for just NC!

I was thinking the SPG Shuttles and Downeaster, but here again, these are places with cold, snowy winters, so scratch that.

Given that the New Orleans intrastate train concept is kinda stymied now, there really don't seem to be a whole lot of temperate places where short to intermediate haul coaches can be used. Even the oft discussed NOL-SAS stub seems like a long time on a Horizon.

Wow, 4 pages of reading replies and not a single mention of Flat Iron Whateveritis (until me just now) - could be a new record!

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

If they were to announce that all the midwest bilevel coaches for corridor use will be EMUs that can operate off 25 kV/60hz overhead power, as well as off rechargeable battery arrays scaled up from what is in the Tesla Roadster / Tesla Model S, and that they are planning to install sufficient overhead power to be able to keep those batteries charged without needing to ever run diesel locomotives to haul those cars, I would consider that dramatic and bold.

And why would that make sense?

It may ultimately be the cheapest way for Amtrak to operate trains that are as close to zero emission as the power grid can get.

If Tesla Motors actually does succeed in selling a battery powered car under $30k five or six years from now like they've claimed they will, there's some risk that in 2019 or so, people will be talking about how much more environmentally friendly their three year old battery powered automobile that is 1/3 of the way through its useful life is than that Amtrak equipment that was built in 2011 that's only 1/3 of the way through its useful life if it's still being hauled behind diesels.

An EMU train with batteries in every car is likely to have vastly better battery range than a locomotive hauled train with batteries in the locomotive. If passenger cars aren't built to carry substantial battery arrays (probably 25 tons per passenger car or more), retrofitting may be impossible.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I was thinking the SPG Shuttles and Downeaster, but here again, these are places with cold, snowy winters, so scratch that.

I'm wondering how long the Springfield Shuttles are really going to stick around in their present form. If some additional NEC trains run north of SPG, some continue to Worcester and BOS, some continue to Worcester, Ayer, Nashua, Manchester, and Concord, and others continue to Worcester, Ayer, Lowell, Haverhill, and then follow the Downeaster route to Maine, we might see enough full length Northeast Regional trains going past Hartford and Springfield to make the locomotive-coach-cabbage trainsets a thing of the past on that route.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Obviously Joel, they'll have to encounter the engine change problem at NHV.

I rode the SPG shuttles during NTD and I have to say its a pretty smooth operation.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

What happens to the Horizon Cars? If the get new bi-level cars for the Midwest where do this cars go? I would guess to NC.

They get booted hell out a fleet they never belonged in in the first place. From about the most solid source I can imagine, I have heard this unequivocally: The bi-levels, if and when ordered, will displace the Amfleets to the east and REPLACE the Horizons. Several commuter agencies have expressed interest in purchasing them, especially Rail Runner, who wants to use them for their ELP-DEN insanity.

If the Bi-levels come, the Horizons are gone.

 

[Steve4031]

What happens to the Horizon Cars? If the get new bi-level cars for the Midwest where do this cars go? I would guess to NC.

They get booted hell out a fleet they never belonged in in the first place. From about the most solid source I can imagine, I have heard this unequivocally: The bi-levels, if and when ordered, will displace the Amfleets to the east and REPLACE the Horizons. Several commuter agencies have expressed interest in purchasing them, especially Rail Runner, who wants to use them for their ELP-DEN insanity.

If the Bi-levels come, the Horizons are gone.

thank god

:lol:

 

[wrjensen]

Obviously Joel, they'll have to encounter the engine change problem at NHV.
I rode the SPG shuttles during NTD and I have to say its a pretty smooth operation.

Was that line electrified Pre-Amtrak to Hartford or Springfield? Would it be cost effective to try and get rid of the engine change and wire the line? It would improve the time from Hartford to NYC.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Obviously Joel, they'll have to encounter the engine change problem at NHV.

If we're looking at a 5-10 year time frame, are you sure? I would think if Amtrak wants to continue to run diesels at all in the long run, the NJT dual mode catenary/diesel locomotives might be an option. And then there's the question of how well batteries might work, especially if Amtrak switches to EMU sets on trains that run beyond catenary territory, and perhaps installs catenary from Springfield to Worcester and a few other segments so that the batteries can recharge en route.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Obviously Joel, they'll have to encounter the engine change problem at NHV.
I rode the SPG shuttles during NTD and I have to say its a pretty smooth operation.

Was that line electrified Pre-Amtrak to Hartford or Springfield? Would it be cost effective to try and get rid of the engine change and wire the line? It would improve the time from Hartford to NYC.

Remember that Connecticut wants to run commuter rail at least as far north as Springfield (though they may also be assuming they'll persuade Massachusetts to pay for Springfield service). I will be very surprised if that doesn't provide a one seat ride from its northern endpoint to GCT. I expect Connecticut to want to find some way to avoid an engine change in New Haven for the commuter service.

If the M9 ends up being a combination of technology from the M8 and the Tesla Roadster, it's easy to imagine that the M9 could have a battery range of 200-300 miles between charging. New Haven to Springfield is only 62 miles each way. If the train turns around quickly at its north end, and charges on the New Haven to Manhattan run and continues to charge on the way back to New Haven, the only new overhead wiring that's likely needed for Metro North is for power at the overnight layover facilities. This also would mean the M9 could provide one seat rides from the ends of the existing non-electrified branches of the New Haven Line to GCT.

By contrast, if a train had a 200 mile battery range and tried to get from New Haven to Boston South Station, it might have to spend some time sitting in the yard in Boston recharging its batteries before heading back to New Haven (unless it was rotated onto the route via Rhode Island at that point), and New Haven to Portland, ME without recharging is probably not possible at all. But Connecticut probably doesn't care whether the Northeast Regional can get to Maine, and Connecticut is probably not the right place for recharging halfway between New Haven and Portland anyway.

Another option might be installing overhead wiring in the vicinity of stations only, since that would maximize the minutes the train spends under every thousand feet of overhead wire, and thus might be most cost effective if getting the local electric utility to provide 25 kV power at such points doesn't turn out to be too expensive.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

You are seeking an answer to a question nobody would ever ask.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Well if we're ever going to market expanded electrification to the rest of the US we're going to show what we can do with modern technology.

 

[GG-1]

Obviously Joel, they'll have to encounter the engine change problem at NHV.
I rode the SPG shuttles during NTD and I have to say its a pretty smooth operation.

Was that line electrified Pre-Amtrak to Hartford or Springfield? Would it be cost effective to try and get rid of the engine change and wire the line? It would improve the time from Hartford to NYC.

Aloha

5o years ago there was a power change in New Haven for trains to Hartford and north, and returning to NYC, By the New Haven RR. Have no clue what happened after 1963 and I left for the west coast, on my way to Hawaii.