European Overnight Trains

[Lonnie]

I agree.

My earliest childhood memories are of Spain in the 1970s as we had an elderly relative in the Murcia area. Poverty was still rampant at the time and people were very religious and would sometimes hand us children prayer cards. Outside of a handful of tourist resorts it was still quite rare to see foreign visitors in Spain at that time and we used to attract a lot of attention everywhere we went, and everybody wanted to ask us where we were from and where we were going and people would be very generous in helping us around. My earliest memories are of sleepy little towns with whitewashed houses and dusty streets and stray dogs, with old men in the cafes sipping their cortados, and women dressed mostly in black. Then there were the markets with fresh fruit piled high, a lot of types of fruit we had never seen or heard of before (back then). And the fishmongers with fish so fresh that it had been pulled out of the sea the same morning and that actually looked as if it was still alive.

Many rail lines would get two trains a day. One was the correo which I guess was so called because it also carried mail and typically ran early in the morning. The train was typically a jumble of older cars of different types with no air conditioning, and the tickets very cheap. Then there was the rapido or Talgo which would usually be a modern train with air conditioning and running at a more civilized hour, but the tickets would be much more pricey. There would always be some folks who either genuinely didn't understand the difference or tried their luck and I remember thinking train conductor must be the toughest job around as he was constantly having to argue with people about their tickets.

Once we travelled on dining car which I guess must have been a pre-war Wagons Lits or Pullman car, with lots of intricate art deco woodwork and marquetry and very soft armchair seats. The chef was preparing the food on a charcoal grill. Everything was cooked from scratch with fresh ingredients. It was quite the experience. We were thrilled that such a thing still existed but the Spaniards around us were ashamed of their backward country and apologized profusely.

Since then, the big cities have been modernized beyond recognition and those days seem like a very distant memory, but out in the deep countryside you can sometimes still find places that have stood still in time. The poverty is gone fortunately but the lifestyle hasn't. What I like to do is catch the slow train (they still exist, even if they're not as colorful as they once were) and then just get off at some place that takes my fancy. I've rarely regretted it.

Yes to all those details from the 70s! I was only on Tenerife at the time, but in a tiny fishing village. Also spent some time on Gomera, got to hear the silbo whistle language in the flesh. Awesome and erie experience. And ate gofio dry with sugar in it. Our friends were very poor. Alas, no train travel until later visits. I like the method you mention at the end. Any particular slow trains you'd recommend?

 

[Willbridge]

The whole March 1971 trip was full of interesting details, but some were known to more people by then, so I just wrote up the best day. I did meet a few American tourists, including a college girl who was the cousin of my former next door neighbor!

The trip included two overnight segments in France, both in 2nd Class. I rode Paris>Nimes overnight in an obscure through car via Toulouse. To my amazement I was able to stretch out and sleep flat across the four seats. A French Marine took the other four and we both slept well.

Heading to the Pyrenees behind a SNCF Pacific...



The return from Pau to Paris via Bordeaux was more typical, sharing the compartment with seven French sailors.

 

[cirdan]

Yes to all those details from the 70s! I was only on Tenerife at the time, but in a tiny fishing village. Also spent some time on Gomera, got to hear the silbo whistle language in the flesh. Awesome and erie experience. And ate gofio dry with sugar in it. Our friends were very poor. Alas, no train travel until later visits. I like the method you mention at the end. Any particular slow trains you'd recommend?

The area I am most familiar with really is the east side, especially Valencia and Murcia. Some places that stick in my memory include:

- Villena, old castle dating to mooric times set between high craggy mountaintops. I think you can't go into the castle by yourself but they do guided tours and when I was there I was the only visitor so got a one on one tour and could explore at my own speed with a very qualified guide to answer all my dumb questions. The town also has some pretty corners and narrow streets climbing up to the castle. Old church with gothic and baroque stonework. Come in the winter and if you're lucky you see snow.

- Xativa to Alcoy rail line for the scenery (be careful to check times as it doesn't run very frequently). This is one of those lines in Spain whose purpose is somewhat unclear as the bus takes about half the time to get there, but it's a good thing it survives.

- Callosa de Segura, pretty town set in a narrow valley between mountains. Amazing old church.

- Orihuela, slightly bigger town, lively and pretty

- La Union, ancient mining town (as I mentioned previously), also played an important role in history of Flamenco music

- Puerto Lumbreras, just a random town that has some pretty bits.

- Teulada, station on the Alicante narrow gauge system. Little town with lots of narrow streets and quaint old houses. Come at lunchtime and eat paella on the square. Great alternative to the more touristy places nearby such as Altea and Calpe

 

[Lonnie]

The area I am most familiar with really is the east side, especially Valencia and Murcia. Some places that stick in my memory include:

- Villena, old castle dating to mooric times set between high craggy mountaintops. I think you can't go into the castle by yourself but they do guided tours and when I was there I was the only visitor so got a one on one tour and could explore at my own speed with a very qualified guide to answer all my dumb questions. The town also has some pretty corners and narrow streets climbing up to the castle. Old church with gothic and baroque stonework. Come in the winter and if you're lucky you see snow.

- Xativa to Alcoy rail line for the scenery (be careful to check times as it doesn't run very frequently). This is one of those lines in Spain whose purpose is somewhat unclear as the bus takes about half the time to get there, but it's a good thing it survives.

- Callosa de Segura, pretty town set in a narrow valley between mountains. Amazing old church.

- Orihuela, slightly bigger town, lively and pretty

- La Union, ancient mining town (as I mentioned previously), also played an important role in history of Flamenco music

- Puerto Lumbreras, just a random town that has some pretty bits.

- Teulada, station on the Alicante narrow gauge system. Little town with lots of narrow streets and quaint old houses. Come at lunchtime and eat paella on the square. Great alternative to the more touristy places nearby such as Altea and Calpe

This is all going into my travel folder. My husband and I are flamenco musicians, toque and cante respectively, familiar with the basic history but not the actual locations of flamenco. Seems to me travel all throughout Spain by rail is going to have to be the organizing principle.

 

[mc0621]

I do hope the us routes could provide some possibilities of overnight trains.

 

[Willbridge]

I do hope the us routes could provide some possibilities of overnight trains.

Amtrak tried a few of them, but with the exception of the Night Owl between Boston and Washington, DC they weren't given much of a chance.

 

[jis]

Amtrak tried a few of them, but with the exception of the Night Owl between Boston and Washington, DC they weren't given much of a chance.

Well considering how the Pioneer was started, it was quite a successful transition from an overnight Coach train to a full fledged train, until of course it just went away. I wonder if it would have been easier to retain it if it were just a Coach train with its low cost of operation.

 

[Willbridge]

Well considering how the Pioneer was started, it was quite a successful transition from an overnight Coach train to a full fledged train, until of course it just went away. I wonder if it would have been easier to retain it if it were just a Coach train with its low cost of operation.

Possibly, but the problem with that was the period when the three trains Pioneer, California Zephyr, and Desert Wind were combined at SLC. The train had to be Superliners to avoid a really awful time of morning to change trains. Once it had to be Superliners, then it made sense running it like the rest of the long-distance trains.

It is likely that the economical operation of the original train helped save it in the first attempt to kill it, which occurred before the mandated two-year experimental period was concluded. [For those who weren't around then, the original consist of the Pioneer was typically a high-capacity Amfleet coach, two leg-rest Amfleet coaches, and an Amdinette. An additional high-capacity Amfleet coach was added between Portland and Seattle during peaks. I rode as a standee when they were short on equipment.]

The original Pioneer covered the slots of the morning southbound and evening northbound Pool Line trains, which were the weaker of the twice daily corridor trains. Here Train 25 is departing Portland. In the winter that part of the trip was usually dark and/or rainy, but most of the great scenery was covered in daylight, seen through Amfleet slits.



The Pioneer was never a high-fashion train. People rode it in the winter to get places where driving could be deadly.

 

[Willbridge]

Getting back to the thread, it would be interesting to see statistics on the 2nd Class cars that some of the European night trains carry. When I rode City NightLine towards the end it looked as though the 2nd Class was holding up pretty well on the Berlin<>Amsterdam round-trip that I made. That was with Southern Pacific levels of customer service (contradictory information, an engine breakdown that could have been ameliorated, etc.)

After shutting down City NightLine and the reservation system then coming up with overnight connections between commuter trains, DB put on some red-eye ICE runs. How did they do?

The interest in night trains continues:
https://www.railjournal.com/passeng...m_source=&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=30740
Tips and tricks for on the go: How to make your night train journey a dream (berliner-zeitung.de)

 

[cirdan]

Getting back to the thread, it would be interesting to see statistics on the 2nd Class cars that some of the European night trains carry. When I rode City NightLine towards the end it looked as though the 2nd Class was holding up pretty well on the Berlin<>Amsterdam round-trip that I made. That was with Southern Pacific levels of customer service (contradictory information, an engine breakdown that could have been ameliorated, etc.)

After shutting down City NightLine and the reservation system then coming up with overnight connections between commuter trains, DB put on some red-eye ICE runs. How did they do?

The interest in night trains continues:
https://www.railjournal.com/passeng...m_source=&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=30740
Tips and tricks for on the go: How to make your night train journey a dream (berliner-zeitung.de)

I think many European night trains these days are second class only. Many of the French ones but also the new Swedish one and others offer only coach seats and couchette cars, with no proper sleeping cars, no bar or restaurant (at best a restricted range of snacks and drinks sold by attendants).

In my opinion especially in the age of COVID there is a clear market for more up market single person bedrooms.

The Austria-based Nightjets mostly offer a range of different categories ranging from their high end private bedrooms with en-suite bathroom all the way down to seated coach cars and several categories between. Sadly the booking website is not very good at explaining the differences to people not familiar with them already (Amtrak does this better in my opinion). I understand Nightjet bought up quite a few cars that were previously CityNightLine / DB which only adds to the jumble of different categories but are working on replacing them by more modern cars with clearer classification.

The red-eye night-time ICE trains are I guess DB's answer to NightJet but also to bus services such as FlixBus who have been eroding the low cost end of train travel and siphoned off much of the more cost-sensitive sector of the market.

 

[slasher-fun]

I think many European night trains these days are second class only. Many of the French ones but also the new Swedish one and others offer only coach seats and couchette cars, with no proper sleeping cars, no bar or restaurant (at best a restricted range of snacks and drinks sold by attendants).

Snälltåget's "Krogen" looks pretty decent to me
https://www.snalltaget.se/en/the-pub
In my opinion especially in the age of COVID there is a clear market for more up market single person bedrooms.

The Austria-based Nightjets mostly offer a range of different categories ranging from their high end private bedrooms with en-suite bathroom all the way down to seated coach cars and several categories between. Sadly the booking website is not very good at explaining the differences to people not familiar with them already (Amtrak does this better in my opinion).

The (i) link on the booking options page seems to explain it in detail: Travel categories

I understand Nightjet bought up quite a few cars that were previously CityNightLine / DB which only adds to the jumble of different categories but are working on replacing them by more modern cars with clearer classification.

Nightjet rolling stock is actually pretty standard, the few exceptions being the double-decker sleepers on Zürich-Wien and Zürich-Hamburg (which will unfortunately be retired at the end of the year) and the "comfort couchette" cars made of refurbished seating cars (NightJet-Couchette)
The new rolling stock (Nightjet of the future) currently being tested (the first units should be in service at the end of the year) is actually going to add much less consistency among a single appellation

 

[Arctifox]

Getting back to the thread, it would be interesting to see statistics on the 2nd Class cars that some of the European night trains carry. When I rode City NightLine towards the end it looked as though the 2nd Class was holding up pretty well on the Berlin<>Amsterdam round-trip that I made.

The 2nd class seats used on the Nightjet services are compartments with six seats (they can actually even be reclined to create a (relatively) flat surface to lie on, but if one wants to do that with 5 other passengers who might even be strangers ...). Other operators (such as Northern European ones like Snälltåget/Vy/SJ use open cars). Here are some pictures of the ÖBB 2nd class compartments: Pictures on VagonWeb

In my opinion especially in the age of COVID there is a clear market for more up market single person bedrooms.

ÖBB is expecting new night train rolling stock in the next few years, and one new product that will be introduced are 1-person compartments similar to capsule hotels. I'm really looking forward to those, hoping that they will offer something more affordable for solo-travellers who want to have their own compartment compared to private couchette/sleeper cars: Picture of new Nightjet mini compartments

 

[Willbridge]

The 2nd class seats used on the Nightjet services are compartments with six seats (they can actually even be reclined to create a (relatively) flat surface to lie on, but if one wants to do that with 5 other passengers who might even be strangers ...). Other operators (such as Northern European ones like Snälltåget/Vy/SJ use open cars). Here are some pictures of the ÖBB 2nd class compartments: Pictures on VagonWeb



ÖBB is expecting new night train rolling stock in the next few years, and one new product that will be introduced are 1-person compartments similar to capsule hotels. I'm really looking forward to those, hoping that they will offer something more affordable for solo-travellers who want to have their own compartment compared to private couchette/sleeper cars: Picture of new Nightjet mini compartments

I agree that it'll be interesting to see how the mini compartments do. The older people here who remember single Slumbercoach rooms are pretty sold on the idea.

 

[jis]

Here is an article from CNN about new trains in Europe in 2022. Among them are several overnight trains...

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/europe-new-train-routes-2022/index.html

 

[Mailliw]

I agree that it'll be interesting to see how the mini compartments do. The older people here who remember single Slumbercoach rooms are pretty sold on the idea.

The only issue with the specific design of them is the lack of a daytime configuration. The only current Amtrak route they could be used on is the overnight NER.

 

[Palmland]

Saw this NYT article on European Night Trains that continues to talk about the political and financial support for short haul (corridor) trains as well as night trains. A lot would have to change before a businessman would want to rely on an overnight Amtrak train. EU governments have some leverage on encouraging/requiring airlines to drop short haul flights with the strings attached to providing funding for Covid relief. That didn’t occur to our government.
**********
“Train travel in Europe is on the upswing, thanks to growing interest from travelers, a renaissance in sleeper trains, and new investments in high-speed rail lines across the continent. But to see major growth in passenger traffic — which is one of the goals of the European Green Deal — the continent’s railways will have to overcome a number of challenges, including booking difficulties and competition with short-haul flights, which remain the cheaper option on many multicountry routes.”

 

[Northwestern]

As a matter of fact, the former Shasta Daylight ran between Portland and Oakland as a coach and parlor car train. It was popular during the longer summer days, but the overnight Cascade did better on a year-round basis. The overnight train had better connections at both terminals. For Shasta Daylight Los Angeles connections there was a transfer at Martinez with the Owl, overnight through the San Joaquin Valley.

As in Europe, there are some places where an overnight train makes sense. I used them in Europe on trips where the fast daytime trains created the same miserable early morning departures as air schedules. As in the WAS<>NYP<>BOS case they add to the convenience of the fast daytime corridor service.

The Shasta Daylight had an interesting schedule:

https://is.gd/JFM18l
I like the Portland boarding at 7:45 AM and a Martinez arrival at 9:49 PM. The northbound train, however, got into Portland pretty late (11:15 PM). I also like the reasonable hours into Dunsmuir for both trains #9 and #10. The big problem, at least for me, is the long hours in coach. I prefer an overnight train in a sleeper.

As to the possibility of a European-like overnight in the US would love to see it. Especially if it had limited stops. However, I just can't see it happening with Amtrak. It would have to be a private affair, I think. Possibly run by large corporate interests like the big hotel chains, Microsoft, Comcast, etc.

 

[Willbridge]

The Shasta Daylight had an interesting schedule:

https://is.gd/JFM18l
I like the Portland boarding at 7:45 AM and a Martinez arrival at 9:49 PM. The northbound train, however, got into Portland pretty late (11:15 PM). I also like the reasonable hours into Dunsmuir for both trains #9 and #10. The big problem, at least for me, is the long hours in coach. I prefer an overnight train in a sleeper.

As to the possibility of a European-like overnight in the US would love to see it. Especially if it had limited stops. However, I just can't see it happening with Amtrak. It would have to be a private affair, I think. Possibly run by large corporate interests like the big hotel chains, Microsoft, Comcast, etc.

The late hours at major stations Portland and San Francisco were big problems.,

• hotels had few or even no bellhops.
• late trains missed the last buses on transit routes.
• the late evening hours at 3rd & Townsend after the ferries were axed were unattractive (although Jack Kerouac wrote a poem about Third Street).
• as the SP stretched out running times, the problems above were worsened. The last (1966) schedule had Train 9's bus connection arriving 3rd St. at 12:20 a.m. and Train 10 arriving Portland at 12:30 a.m.

Several of these problems apply to city pairs in Europe, making overnight travel a solution.

 

[Northwestern]

The late hours at major stations Portland and San Francisco were big problems.,

• hotels had few or even no bellhops.
• late trains missed the last buses on transit routes.
• the late evening hours at 3rd & Townsend after the ferries were axed were unattractive (although Jack Kerouac wrote a poem about Third Street).
• as the SP stretched out running times, the problems above were worsened. The last (1966) schedule had Train 9's bus connection arriving 3rd St. at 12:20 a.m. and Train 10 arriving Portland at 12:30 a.m.

Several of these problems apply to city pairs in Europe, making overnight travel a solution.

It does sound like a big problem. Has anyone tried to either detrain or board the Empire Builder in Spokane? I wonder if there are taxi's available at those late hours? What about security around the station, is it a problem?

I wish there was some sort of daylight train from Sacramento up to Dunsmuir and Siskiyou county. A daylight view of Mt. Shasta and access to numerous recreational areas would be great!

https://is.gd/JAhswh

 

[CCC1007]

It does sound like a big problem. Has anyone tried to either detrain or board the Empire Builder in Spokane? I wonder if there are taxi's available at those late hours? What about security around the station, is it a problem?

I wish there was some sort of daylight train from Sacramento up to Dunsmuir and Siskiyou county. A daylight view of Mt. Shasta and access to numerous recreational areas would be great!

https://is.gd/JAhswh

I’ve both detrained and entrained at Spokane, and there have been taxis each time.

There is an on site security guard, and I felt safe each time.

 

[MARC Rider]

I used to use the Toldeo, Ohio station quite a bit. Sometimes I just connected to the Ambus to Ann Arbor, sometimes I took a cab to/from the airport to get a rental car. I never had a problem getting a taxi, but the fare was pretty stiff, given that the Toledo Airport seems like it's halfway to Chicago.

I once came into New York at 3 AM because of downed catenary in New Jersey and had no trouble finding a cab to get to my hotel, but that's New York, the "city that never sleeps."

I came into Baltimore once at midnight because of a Carolinian meltdown, and I had no problem finding a ride share to get me home. Baltimore to Charlotte would actually be a nice overnight ride, come to think of it.

I've never taken the Palmetto southbound, so I don't know whether there's a problem with taxicabs in Savannah (the station is out in the middle of nowhere) when the train arrives at 9 something PM. The Silver Meteor is a great overnight ride to Savannah from the NEC, and there are always taxicabs.

 

[Willbridge]

It does sound like a big problem. Has anyone tried to either detrain or board the Empire Builder in Spokane? I wonder if there are taxi's available at those late hours? What about security around the station, is it a problem?

I wish there was some sort of daylight train from Sacramento up to Dunsmuir and Siskiyou county. A daylight view of Mt. Shasta and access to numerous recreational areas would be great!

https://is.gd/JAhswh

I did that once, in 1966, and walked to the Hotel Couer d'Alene, but there are some much more recent examples here. One factor is that although intercity buses share the station, their activity is mostly at other times.