Expanding the Amtrak Route Map

[neroden]

Dang, I thought they were further along with that than they are. Thanks for the info.

Yeah...I had thought so too. I knew the Rockford (Dubuque) project was basically dead (or at least dormant) but thought that there had actually been some movement on Moline/Quad Cities. Or maybe there has been (the Moline station perhaps) but the trackage improvements have always been "starting in the near future."

They needed the following components:

(1) Agreement with BNSF. Obtained.

(2) Upgrades on BNSF. Done.

(3) Agreement with IAIS. Apparently they only just got this finalized (delayed by the budget fiasco).

(4) Upgrades on IAIS. They were in the middle of engineering when the budget fiasco delayed it.

(5) Moline station. Designed. Mostly built. Can't do platform until after track work sets the track level.

(6) Intermediate station in Geneseo. Not designed yet. May open after the rest of the line.

(7) Track connection at Wyanet. Property surveyed. I believe there is agreement with both IAIS and BNSF on the basic design. Property purchase delayed by the budget fiasco.

(8) Locomotives. Paid for and arriving.

(9) Rolling stock. ???? -- Nippon Sharyo disaster. I'm not sure what they're going to do for this.

The whole thing is complicated because the trackwork mostly can't be done in the winter. The budget fiasco therefore delayed start of most IAIS construction until next spring, though if the engineering goes well they might get some of it done this year.

 

[Eric S]

Dang, I thought they were further along with that than they are. Thanks for the info.

Yeah...I had thought so too. I knew the Rockford (Dubuque) project was basically dead (or at least dormant) but thought that there had actually been some movement on Moline/Quad Cities. Or maybe there has been (the Moline station perhaps) but the trackage improvements have always been "starting in the near future."

They needed the following components:

(1) Agreement with BNSF. Obtained.

(2) Upgrades on BNSF. Done.

(3) Agreement with IAIS. Apparently they only just got this finalized (delayed by the budget fiasco).

(4) Upgrades on IAIS. They were in the middle of engineering when the budget fiasco delayed it.

(5) Moline station. Designed. Mostly built. Can't do platform until after track work sets the track level.

(6) Intermediate station in Geneseo. Not designed yet. May open after the rest of the line.

(7) Track connection at Wyanet. Property surveyed. I believe there is agreement with both IAIS and BNSF on the basic design. Property purchase delayed by the budget fiasco.

(8) Locomotives. Paid for and arriving.

(9) Rolling stock. ???? -- Nippon Sharyo disaster. I'm not sure what they're going to do for this.

The whole thing is complicated because the trackwork mostly can't be done in the winter. The budget fiasco therefore delayed start of most IAIS construction until next spring, though if the engineering goes well they might get some of it done this year.

Has Illinois or some other entity been putting out progress reports that allowed you to compile that list? Or did you have to cobble it together from various sources?

And, yeah, not sure what the plan is for equipment for these trains...

 

[Anderson]

Depending on what the planned timetable is, Quad Cities might "only" need a single set to operate for the first frequency. That could be absorbed in any number of ways (perhaps directly or indirectly through the use of one of those loose Talgo sets?), but 4-6 passenger cars should still be doable at the moment. We are getting towards the limits of the existing equipment pool, but this might be workable.

The other option would be for the state and Amtrak to come to some sort of agreement for Amtrak to put out an order which could be filled by Siemens for a few sets of equipment based around the AAF design, with perhaps a 20-year agreement attached to it through leasing the equipment out to the state.

 

[jis]

Aren't the loose Talgo sets destined for California? Or has that been nixed?

 

[west point]

Depending on what the planned timetable is, Quad Cities might "only" need a single set to operate for the first frequency. That could be absorbed in any number of ways (perhaps directly or indirectly through the use of one of those loose Talgo sets?), but 4-6 passenger cars should still be doable at the moment. We are getting towards the limits of the existing equipment pool, but this might be workable.

The other option would be for the state and Amtrak to come to some sort of agreement for Amtrak to put out an order which could be filled by Siemens for a few sets of equipment based around the AAF design, with perhaps a 20-year agreement attached to it through leasing the equipment out to the state.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Depending on what the planned timetable is, Quad Cities might "only" need a single set to operate for the first frequency. That could be absorbed in any number of ways (perhaps directly or indirectly through the use of one of those loose Talgo sets?), but 4-6 passenger cars should still be doable at the moment. We are getting towards the limits of the existing equipment pool, but this might be workable.

The other option would be for the state and Amtrak to come to some sort of agreement for Amtrak to put out an order which could be filled by Siemens for a few sets of equipment based around the AAF design, with perhaps a 20-year agreement attached to it through leasing the equipment out to the state.

West Point, maybe something went missing?

 

[neroden]

Dang, I thought they were further along with that than they are. Thanks for the info.

Yeah...I had thought so too. I knew the Rockford (Dubuque) project was basically dead (or at least dormant) but thought that there had actually been some movement on Moline/Quad Cities. Or maybe there has been (the Moline station perhaps) but the trackage improvements have always been "starting in the near future."

They needed the following components:

(1) Agreement with BNSF. Obtained.

(2) Upgrades on BNSF. Done.

(3) Agreement with IAIS. Apparently they only just got this finalized (delayed by the budget fiasco).

(4) Upgrades on IAIS. They were in the middle of engineering when the budget fiasco delayed it.

(5) Moline station. Designed. Mostly built. Can't do platform until after track work sets the track level.

(6) Intermediate station in Geneseo. Not designed yet. May open after the rest of the line.

(7) Track connection at Wyanet. Property surveyed. I believe there is agreement with both IAIS and BNSF on the basic design. Property purchase delayed by the budget fiasco.

(8) Locomotives. Paid for and arriving.

(9) Rolling stock. ???? -- Nippon Sharyo disaster. I'm not sure what they're going to do for this.

The whole thing is complicated because the trackwork mostly can't be done in the winter. The budget fiasco therefore delayed start of most IAIS construction until next spring, though if the engineering goes well they might get some of it done this year.

Has Illinois or some other entity been putting out progress reports that allowed you to compile that list? Or did you have to cobble it together from various sources?

And, yeah, not sure what the plan is for equipment for these trains...

Cobbled it together from news articles over the course of the last two years.

 

[west point]

This site is loosing some of my posts. Point is that Siemens Bright line type cars do not have traps. Maybe they can be designed to meet the 800.000 # crush test. Maybe Siemens has overseas cars that will pass the test. Another problem is Brightline cars are semi permanently coupled. IE no knuckle couplers except cars that connect to locos.

 

[jis]

Siemens Brightline cars have passed the 800,000lb crush test. Putting in traps are structurally trivial in a center sill car, such as the Brightline cars derived from Railjet cars.

It is also trivial change to replace the drawbars by AAR/American passenger standard tightlock couplers.

So both are essentially non issues.

 

[norfolkwesternhenry]

OK, fantasy exercise here:

You can add up to 5,000 train miles to the Amtrak map. This doesn't include multiple frequencies of a current route. You can choose any old route (Amtrak or otherwise), you don't have to worry about the ownership/ condition of the tracks or stations within the 5,000 track mile limit. Don't worry about putting routes together or one seat rides. If you want to bring back the 1995 BL, you only get charged the route between PGH-CHI since PGH-NYP is still being used.

We can play this really old Wheel of Fortune style ... "For 788 miles, I'll take the Desert Wind between LAX and SLC..."

90's Amtrak (timetables.org):

Sunset Limited East (MIA-NOL): 1033 miles

Desert Wind (SLC-LAX): 788 miles

Texas Eagle (DAL-HOS): 264 miles

Lake Cities (DET-TOL): 56 miles

Since my "ideal" Amtrak "BL" route would be via Michigan and I could live with it going via CLE-TOL-South Bend, I don't "need" the portion between PGH and CHI.

70's Amtrak:

National Limited (PGH-STL): 611 miles

Lone Star (OKC-Newton): 197 miles

Floridian (IND-Nashville): 298 miles (When it ran via Indy)

Pre Amtrak:

Cincinnati Limited (CIN-Columbus): 124.9 miles (http://www.american-rails.com/cinn-ltd.html)

Dixie Flagler (JAX-Nashville): 642.8 miles (http://streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track2/dixieflag194106.html)

Phoebe Snow (Hoboken-BUF): 396.2 miles (http://www.american-rails.com/phoebe-snow.html) (Shout out to Neroden!)

Total so far (rounding up): 3,997 miles

My ideal CHI-Florida route would be via IND-Louisville-Nashville-Chattanooga-ATL-Jacksonville-ORL-MIA and/or TPA.

I don't have records of the mileage of any CLE-Columbus route or the proposed Meridian-DAL route. I certainly want CLE-Columbus included (AAO puts it at 135 miles, http://freepdfhosting.com/cf26514bc8.pdf).I'm not 100% sold on Meridian-DAL since if HOS-DAL are hooked up that would give you a potential shorter route between NOL-DAL (via HOS). Maybe you could just extend the Crescent to DAL or HOS or SAS (again, fantasy thread!!!!) Meridian-Dallas via the Thruway bus is 507 miles so that is a huge bit of real estate for Shreveport. If you include those, that would leave around 450 miles. I also would like routes for both Allentown/Bethlehem and Tulsa. Allentown to Philly would be really "cheap" (maybe 50 miles?) I don't think I can fit Boise in (I certainly won't include all 1,625 miles of the old Pioneer between DEN-SEA).

If you have any accurate train miles for any of the missing portions feel free to do so and I'll update my list.

The Soo Line (CN) route from CHI-MSP (~450 miles)The CNW (UP) route from CHI-MSP (~400 miles)

The CB&Q (BNSF)route from CHI-MSP (~400 miles)

The Milwaukee Road (CP) route CHI-Green Bay, WI (~200 miles)

The BNSF Hinckley Sub MSP-Duluth (~220 miles)

Part of several railroads (MSP-DEN via CZ) (~400 miles?)

The BNSD line GFK-Winnepeg, MB (~150 miles?)

The ex CNW route MSP-Mankato (~150 miles?)

CP route from MSP-Rochester-Winona (~100 miles)

I want my midwest MSP based service back if you can tell

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[dlagrua]

After reading all the posts here, I will agree the new routes mentioned would be nice but at this point lets be happy that the Roanoke service is just about ready to happen.

 

[Pere Flyer]

Service to Michigan's Upper Peninsula. I'd love to take a train from Chicago up the Wisconsin coast to Menominee, Escanaba, St Ignace, L'Anse, Marquette, Munising, Tahquamenon, and Sault Ste. Marie.

Even better (and more fantastical), build a five mile rail bridge across the straits of Mackinac and extend the Pere Marquette through Muskegon, Ludington, Traverse City, Petoskey, Mackinaw City, and across the straits to St Ignace and beyond.

Camping trip by train!

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[railiner]

Service to Michigan's Upper Peninsula. I'd love to take a train from Chicago up the Wisconsin coast to Menominee, Escanaba, St Ignace, L'Anse, Marquette, Munising, Tahquamenon, and Sault Ste. Marie.

Even better (and more fantastical), build a five mile rail bridge across the straits of Mackinac and extend the Pere Marquette through Muskegon, Ludington, Traverse City, Petoskey, Mackinaw City, and across the straits to St Ignace and beyond.

Camping trip by train!

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

I agree...building a rail bridge across the Straits will never happen...better chance of extending service north out of Milwaukee thru Green Bay to reach the Upper Peninsula....

 

[Pere Flyer]

Service to Michigan's Upper Peninsula. I'd love to take a train from Chicago up the Wisconsin coast to Menominee, Escanaba, St Ignace, L'Anse, Marquette, Munising, Tahquamenon, and Sault Ste. Marie.

Even better (and more fantastical), build a five mile rail bridge across the straits of Mackinac and extend the Pere Marquette through Muskegon, Ludington, Traverse City, Petoskey, Mackinaw City, and across the straits to St Ignace and beyond.

Camping trip by train!

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

I agree...building a rail bridge across the Straits will never happen...better chance of extending service north out of Milwaukee thru Green Bay to reach the Upper Peninsula....

Don't get me wrong, I'd be satisfied with a CHI-UP train via Green Bay. Maybe once Gateway gets going (and the Mich legislature feels like spending money again), make a rail "chunnel" Mackinaw City-St Ignace. Time it with removing 64-year-old Enbridge Line 5 and save a bit of money. Now that's a real pipe dream!

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[JRR]

The Chicago & Northwest used to run a line from Chicago up through the UP. I'm not sure where it ended, I got off at Powers, MI, but it went through Milwaukee, Racine, along Lake Winnabago, to Menominee/Marinette. Can't remember all of the stops.

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[railiner]

The Chicago & Northwest used to run a line from Chicago up through the UP. I'm not sure where it ended, I got off at Powers, MI, but it went through Milwaukee, Racine, along Lake Winnabago, to Menominee/Marinette. Can't remember all of the stops.

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Looking at a Chicago & North Western timetable from 1964, the "Peninsula 400" ended at Ishpeming, Mi., 393 miles from Chicago....

 

[JRR]

Wow, a 1964 schedule! That’s the last year I rode it!

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[railiner]

My last intercity ride on the C&NW was just prior to 'A' day, in April of '71....rode the Sky Top Parlor of the MILW Afternoon Hiawatha for Chicago up to Milwaukee, and then returned on the C&NW in a Bi-Level....

What a great variety available back then....

After that, you could still ride C&NW commuter trains to Kenosha, and transfer to Wisconsin Coach Lines to reach Milwaukee, as an alternative to Amtrak on the MILW route...

 

[neroden]

I guess rolling stock is still the biggest issue on the Quad Cities line, now that the budget fiasco is over.

Let me make this very clear: federal regulators will never permit a new station to open with low-level platforms served by high-floor cars. Not happening, and should not happen.

With the Nippon-Sharyo order failing, Illinois therefore has a choice. They can buy high-floor cars and build high-floor platforms. (Probably a good idea.) They're allowed to run the high-floor cars to stations with existing low-floor platforms as long as other low-floor trains are running there -- but loading high-floor cars at low platforms might delay services on the BNSF line. (Unless a special siding with a high platform was built at Aurora, Naperville, Route 59, or something.)

Or they can reallocate existing low-floor cars to the new line and move high-floor cars to a line which already has high-floor cars and some high platforms (maybe the Michigan line).

This is probably creating some indecision in Illinois DOT.

 

[Anthony V]

I guess rolling stock is still the biggest issue on the Quad Cities line, now that the budget fiasco is over.

Let me make this very clear: federal regulators will never permit a new station to open with low-level platforms served by high-floor cars. Not happening, and should not happen.

With the Nippon-Sharyo order failing, Illinois therefore has a choice. They can buy high-floor cars and build high-floor platforms. (Probably a good idea.) They're allowed to run the high-floor cars to stations with existing low-floor platforms as long as other low-floor trains are running there -- but loading high-floor cars at low platforms might delay services on the BNSF line. (Unless a special siding with a high platform was built at Aurora, Naperville, Route 59, or something.)

Or they can reallocate existing low-floor cars to the new line and move high-floor cars to a line which already has high-floor cars and some high platforms (maybe the Michigan line).

This is probably creating some indecision in Illinois DOT.

It's not just the equipment issue that's holding up the Quad Cities line. Progress on the project halted at first due to Governor Bruce Rauner placing the project and its funding under review in February 2015, not releasing the funding until June 2016. Then it was the two year budget impasse that held things up. As a result, Iowa Interstate is still not done with the engineering stage of the route it needs in order to come up with a capital improvement request that they will negotiate with the state. Moline says the station will be done by Fall of 2017, but it is currently unknown when train service will start.

Even more troubling is that BNSF's contract with the state expired in September, and that "The contract with the Iowa Interstate Railroad has been amended four times already, dating back to July of 2012." So working out contract issues will further delay the project. Due to all of this, there has been no timeline when service or even construction on the line will start.

 

[neroden]

Yes, Governor Rauner's infantile antics with the budget delayed the project substantially. BNSF has proven to be a friendly host and IAIS just needed to get paid to do the engineering, so I don't think those will be problems. They do have to figure out what to do about rolling stock and platforms though.

 

[west point]

Our Cardinal haters best think again the August ridership of Cardinal multiplied by 7/3 would exceed Capitol, Crescent, CNO.

 

[XHRTSP]

Our Cardinal haters best think again the August ridership of Cardinal multiplied by 7/3 would exceed Capitol, Crescent, CNO.

When living in Chicago the Cardinal was my #1 priority for train excursions. Every month when my schedule came out for the following month, I'd check WAS-CHI or CHI-WAS and see if it was doable. And literally every month, half the days didn't work because of the thrice weekly crap, and the other half the sleepers were sold out or just insane expensive for a then regional pilot. I ended up settling and jumpseating to DCA and then overnighting back on the Capitol Limited. It should not be this hard to give Amtrak my money.

 

[railiner]

Our Cardinal haters best think again the August ridership of Cardinal multiplied by 7/3 would exceed Capitol, Crescent, CNO.

When living in Chicago the Cardinal was my #1 priority for train excursions. Every month when my schedule came out for the following month, I'd check WAS-CHI or CHI-WAS and see if it was doable. And literally every month, half the days didn't work because of the thrice weekly crap, and the other half the sleepers were sold out or just insane expensive for a then regional pilot. I ended up settling and jumpseating to DCA and then overnighting back on the Capitol Limited. It should not be this hard to give Amtrak my money.

Just curious...do your co-workers know about your passion for commuting on long-distance trains, and what do they say about it?

 

[XHRTSP]

Just curious...do your co-workers know about your passion for commuting on long-distance trains, and what do they say about it?

I'm not sure the Capitol Limited trip ever came up. A few months later after moving to the west coast, I fulfilled a years long dream of riding the Empire Builder, and I talked in length about that one. I had pictures too, so they all thought it was pretty awesome sounding.

Most of us actually enjoy taking the train when it makes sense to do so. In the states most of my coworkers live in areas where it doesn't, but when we need to move around in Europe or Japan it can be the preferred option.