Fares that don't make sense

[caravanman]

Looks like selecting coach on both legs forces the more expensive ‘flexible’ fare rate for both, whereas selecting business class on the surfliner allows the much cheaper saver fare for the SWC.

Well done, that makes sense, a good explanation of the situation! (I am very much a "saver" type traveller. )

 

[zephyr17]

Okay, I found the problem. It is a website artifact brought to you by those coding geniuses in Amtrak IT.

Since coach seats are unreserved on the Surfliners and are good on any train, they are classified in the "Flexible" fare category. That appears to force all trains in the same class on a single request to "Flexible", which is well over $300 LAX-CHI, since the website only presents prices after all segments are selected. If you simply use Multi-City entering SAN-LAX and LAX-CHI you get the segments prices presented individually. $36 Flexible SAN-LAX and $146 Saver LAX-CHI for a total fare of $182. Choosing Business under One Way also appears to force it away from choosing Flexible on the SW Chief since it is a different class.

I hypothesize this was introduced when they fixed the problem they had when selecting two different room accommodations on one trip caused the "Continue" button to be unresponsive so reservations couldn't be completed. Part of that solution appears to be to push price presentation to the end rather than segment by segment.

In any case, it appears to me to an artifact of the website and supporting layers introduced by Amtrak IT's limping quest to "modernize" and "simplify" the website. They either don't have or don't fully test all use cases, which has been demonstrated time and again. An agent, who has a different interface that doesn't have all the "helpful" add ons of the website can probably see and quote the lower mixed fare, and the rest of us can work around it through Multi-City if we wish.

I wonder how many customers Amtrak has driven off through such inflated fare quotes.

 

[Literalman]

In planning a trip we will take next week, I found that booking individual coach segments was sometimes cheaper than thru tickets with connections. And a couple of years ago we traveled in business class from New York City to Alexandria, Va., because it was cheaper than coach.

 

[trimetbusfan]

An agent, who has a different interface that doesn't have all the "helpful" add ons of the website can probably see and quote the lower mixed fare, and the rest of us can work around it through Multi-City if we wish.

I wonder how many customers Amtrak has driven off through such inflated fare quotes.

and if you book it through Multi-City then you don't get the 'fare bundle' that Amtrak gives for booking a multi-segment route.

I am almost certain that I have seen (and booked) Saver and Standard fares on the Surfliner before. Making them all 'Flexible' fares would make sense because of the rare flexible nature that Surfliner tickets offer. If they had just recently taken away the other fare classes for the Surfliner, this might be a relatively new issue.

Considering many people connect between the Surfliner and SWC, I hope Amtrak gets this issue brought to their attention.

 

[caravanman]

How do "unreserved" tickets actually work on the Surfliner trains? If I buy a ticket on the 10.10am train 770 Surfliner from LAX to SAN, can I just board the 774 at 12.10pm with the same ticket instead? (Or is the ticket good for a specific train only, just "unreserved" in that you are not guaranteed a seat?)

No probs, I looked it up myself, unreserved is any train, good for 12 months!

 

[wrowland]

This is a known and longstanding issue. Connections in ARROW must be entered into the system city pair by city pair, they are not generated algorithmically, nor even entered train to train/bus. This results in some city pairs not having been entered, although there are guaranteed connections for the whole route. The workaround is to check the connections individually using major points when the desired routing does not come up. In this case, probably LAX-WMH to check the bus connection to Williams and, to be absolutely positive, SAN-FLG to check the connection at LAX. If both come up, the connections at LAX and FLG from SAN to WMH are there and guaranteed, despite a SAN-WMH request returning "no service". Having confirmed the connections, you can feel confident booking it using two segments on Multi-City or with an agent, probably SAN-LAX and LAX-WMH. Don't generally use separate reservations as that loses the connection guarantee.

This has been the case for years and years. Lesser city pairs can eventually get added then city pairs break when even minor schedule changes are made and must be re-entered. "Missing" city pairs come and go.

As to the what appears to be a weird overcharge on Surfliner fares when connecting to the SW Chief, I can't speak to that. I'd wonder if it still happens when entered as Multi-City versus the normal One Way option.

But the casual train rider is supposed to know and understand this? It's no wonder why so many fear train travel when they read/see things like this.

 

[railiner]

In planning a trip we will take next week, I found that booking individual coach segments was sometimes cheaper than thru tickets with connections. And a couple of years ago we traveled in business class from New York City to Alexandria, Va., because it was cheaper than coach.

I have noticed a few times, that booking a longer segment fares out cheaper than a shorter segment, especially if the longer segment goes beyond a "corridor". For example, booking New York to Alexandria, instead of Washington; or Chicago to Poplar Bluff, instead of St. Louis....

And sometimes, the shorter segment may be "sold out", but the longer one still has space...

 

[dlagrua]

IMO, the fares that don't make sense are the CHI to CA and WA sleeper fares ( CZ, SWC, EB) that can run up to $3,000 one way. I can understand them being expensive but has Amtrak reached a limit where they can still sell out?

 

[Sidney]

IMO, the fares that don't make sense are the CHI to CA sleeper fares ( CZ, SWC, EB) that can run up to $3,000 one way. I can understand them being expensive but has Amtrak reached a limit where they can still sell out?

Always amazed people will pay over $2, yet $3000 for basically a 48 hour trip. Yet, they do and Amtrak will charge it. Wonder if they will reach the $4000 plateau?

 

[trimetbusfan]

Always amazed people will pay over $2, yet $3000 for basically a 48 hour trip. Yet, they do and Amtrak will charge it. Wonder if they will reach the $4000 plateau?

I think the Zephr is so popular they can get away with it.

The builder, on the other hand also had a fare increase. On the SEA-CHI leg, I've noticed 5-8 roomettes open for the entire trip just days out from departure (even right now in peak travel season), often causing the fare to drop to the low bucket at the last second.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Always amazed people will pay over [$2,000] yet $3000 for basically a 48 hour trip. Yet, they do and Amtrak will charge it. Wonder if they will reach the $4000 plateau?

It's really more like a 4 to 8 hour trip that takes 48 hours because you're on Amtrak. At this point they may as well charge $9,999 (or whatever happens to be ARROW's maximum fare). What I find amusing are the people who rant against "land cruise" service without realizing/admitting that other than the the absurd sleeper pricing there is nothing cruise-like about riding Amtrak.

 

[user 14106]

Okay, I found the problem. It is a website artifact brought to you by those coding geniuses in Amtrak IT.

Since coach seats are unreserved on the Surfliners and are good on any train, they are classified in the "Flexible" fare category. That appears to force all trains in the same class on a single request to "Flexible", which is well over $300 LAX-CHI, since the website only presents prices after all segments are selected.

It may be because they require a reserved ticket on the Surfliner for guaranteed connections from other services and maybe flexible is the only way it’s reserved on that service. Having said that it seems to me they should offer the normal fares as you suggest and simply make it reserved if a person is connecting. Keystones are kind of like that - PHL - HAR is unreserved however if one end of your trip is an NEC stop beyond Philly or involves a connection to other Amtrak service it becomes a reserved ticket. Unsure if reserved tickets have a specific car on the train.

 

[zephyr17]

It may be because they require a reserved ticket on the Surfliner for guaranteed connections from other services and maybe flexible is the only way it’s reserved on that service. Having said that it seems to me they should offer the normal fares as you suggest and simply make it reserved if a person is connecting. Keystones are kind of like that - PHL - HAR is unreserved however if one end of your trip is an NEC stop beyond Philly or involves a connection to other Amtrak service it becomes a reserved ticket. Unsure if reserved tickets have a specific car on the train.

All Surfliner tickets except Business Class are unreserved. The rest of the reservation may have to be reserved but the underlying ticket type on the Surfliner is unreserved even though it lists a specific train. You could use that ticket on an earlier train than the one initially booked without penalty or impact and use the extra time to enjoy Olvera St and Phillpes if you wanted to.

That is why Surfliner tickets are "Flexible" and apparently triggering a website glitch that forces subsequent segments to Flexible with it.

 

[zephyr17]

But the casual train rider is supposed to know and understand this? It's no wonder why so many fear train travel when they read/see things like this.

The casual train riders wouldn't know or understand this, unfortunately. They'd just go away at "no service" and seek other alternatives for their San Diego-Williams (or whatever) trip.

I am not excusing it, I am just explaining it and how to work around it.

 

[user 14106]

All Surfliner tickets except Business Class are unreserved. The rest of the reservation may have to be reserved but the underlying ticket type on the Surfliner is unreserved even though it lists a specific train. You could use that ticket on an earlier train than the one initially booked without penalty or impact and use the extra time to enjoy Olvera St and Phillpes if you wanted to.

That is why Surfliner tickets are "Flexible" and apparently triggering a website glitch that forces subsequent segments to Flexible with it.

Good to know I just assumed it was like the Keystones with connections.

 

[Amtrak709]

Always amazed people will pay over $2, yet $3000 for basically a 48 hour trip. Yet, they do and Amtrak will charge it. Wonder if they will reach the $4000 plateau?

How about $1619 NYP-MIA for a 27-hour trip. I suspect one could utilize this whole forum in discussing the now ridiculous high priced sleeping car fares. As a nearly 76 year old railfan, I used to just get on the trains to ride--mostly SAV-WAS or JAX-WAS or ATN-WAS. Somewhere in the last two years Amtrak, in my opinion, tipped the scales beyond what is reasonable and valuable.

 

[Amtrak709]

Another curiosity mostly directed to those well versed on Amtrak fare structure (if there is such a person???): I have traveled rail since 1966 and my preferred method of travel is sleeper bedroom as a single passenger. I know that due to "buckets" and yield management that it is difficult if not impossible to really compare fares, but in my 375,000 miles travelled throughout the 1960's to the 2010's that--given a particular train route and date--the cost of a bedroom was about 140-150% higher than a roomette on the same train. I know that this %-higher fare has gotten somewhat greater in recent times. It seems to me that this cost difference is wildly disproportionate on the Silvers, i.e., NYP - MIA. A recent test booking on a specific date 340 days in advance NYP-MIA resulted in $492/roomette and $1619/bedroom--about a 300% difference. Is this the norm for the Silver route do you think--supply and demand, etc.? I ask this only because I lived in Daytona Beach FL 34 years of my life before moving back to GA in 1998 and the Silvers out of DLD were "my trains". This variation does not seem to be as significant on the Crescent (the train I ride most often now) or even the west and mid-west overnights. Any random thoughts??

 

[trimetbusfan]

Another curiosity mostly directed to those well versed on Amtrak fare structure (if there is such a person???): I have traveled rail since 1966 and my preferred method of travel is sleeper bedroom as a single passenger. I know that due to "buckets" and yield management that it is difficult if not impossible to really compare fares, but in my 375,000 miles travelled throughout the 1960's to the 2010's that--given a particular train route and date--the cost of a bedroom was about 140-150% higher than a roomette on the same train. I know that this %-higher fare has gotten somewhat greater in recent times. It seems to me that this cost difference is wildly disproportionate on the Silvers, i.e., NYP - MIA. A recent test booking on a specific date 340 days in advance NYP-MIA resulted in $492/roomette and $1619/bedroom--about a 300% difference. Is this the norm for the Silver route do you think--supply and demand, etc.? I ask this only because I lived in Daytona Beach FL 34 years of my life before moving back to GA in 1998 and the Silvers out of DLD were "my trains". This variation does not seem to be as significant on the Crescent (the train I ride most often now) or even the west and mid-west overnights. Any random thoughts??

Well, to be fair, $492 is the absolute lowest roomette bucket, and 1619 is the absolute highest bedroom bucket.

Roomette fares range from 492-863
Bedroom fares range from 930-1619

So in theory bedroom fares are about double roomette fares. However, it’s much harder to find bedroom fares in lower buckets to lower quantity avalible for sale.

 

[Amtrak709]

Well, to be fair, $492 is the absolute lowest roomette bucket, and 1619 is the absolute highest bedroom bucket.

Roomette fares range from 492-863
Bedroom fares range from 930-1619

So in theory bedroom fares are about double roomette fares. However, it’s much harder to find bedroom fares in lower buckets to lower quantity avalible for sale.

So I guess the answer is really supply and demand (assuming 3 sleepers with 33+ roomettes and only 6-9 bedrooms if you count the H bedroom). With respect, however, the fare is whatever it is on the day you buy it. I have only once in my life booked and purchased a ticket 360 days (Amtrak's limit) in advance (that was for the Presidential Inauguration in WAS in 2005). Having said that, I would be presented with a triple the fare difference. I know all these fare variations are hard to get your head around it and yield management has always been around in some form. I remember when fare codes were actually on the ticket like "DS or DA, or DB, etc and the like".

 

[Barb Stout]

In any case, it appears to me to an artifact of the website and supporting layers introduced by Amtrak IT's limping quest to "modernize" and "simplify" the website. They either don't have or don't fully test all use cases, which has been demonstrated time and again. An agent, who has a different interface that doesn't have all the "helpful" add ons of the website can probably see and quote the lower mixed fare, and the rest of us can work around it through Multi-City if we wish.

If one books using Multi-City, are the connections guaranteed or no?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

If one books using Multi-City, are the connections guaranteed or no?

In the past they have been, and I've yet to see anything that contradicts this, but I would also not be surprised if Gardner's Amtrak used multi-city booking as an excuse to disavow guarantees or to reduce compensation at some point. They've already removed full-trip discounts booked as multi-city.

 

[zephyr17]

If one books using Multi-City, are the connections guaranteed or no?

Not necessarily. That is why I recommended checking if the connection comes up between major points on the same train. If they do, the fact the itinerary isn't presented is an artifact of how city pairs are entered into ARROW and the connection between those trains is guaranteed.

It is possible to book connections that are not guaranteed on Multi-City, particularly ones that are too short. So if a connection guarantee is required, verify the trains have a guaranteed connection using major points on the routes. Then you can book those same trains between Podunk and Hicksville on Multi-City secure that the connection is guaranteed and your reservation will show up on the misconnect list.

 

[PatchesC]

Assuming pricing issues? One way for one person is now showing $409, yesterday 3 people was $528

 

[glensfallsse]

Would anyone be able to tell me the lowest bucket prices for end to end travel on the longest routes — Empire Builder, Southwest Chief, silvers, Crescent, etc. I realize this is not an exact science. Ballpark figure would be fine.

 

[trimetbusfan]

Would anyone be able to tell me the lowest bucket prices for end to end travel on the longest routes — Empire Builder, Southwest Chief, silvers, Crescent, etc. I realize this is not an exact science. Ballpark figure would be fine.

For roomettes, they are all about $550-650, depending on Route. That rate is easier to find on some routes than others.

The one exception is the crescent, low bucket on that is $478