Feasibility of Florida-Chicago Train via Atlanta, Nashville, Louisvill

[brianpmcdonnell17]

The train could use the following routing.

-CSX and possibly FEC South of Jacksonville

-CSX Jacksonville-Cordelle, GA via Waycross

-NS Cordelle, GA-Atlanta via Macon

-CSX Atlanta-Lousville via Chattanooga and Nashville

-Louisville and Indiana-Louisville-Indianapolis

Refueling could be done at endpoints and Atlanta (and if necessary Indianapolis and Jacksonville)

Using a generous average speed of 45 MPH, I was able to calculate a proposed schedule. It would require 4 Train sets and take a day and a half to complete.

Mile posts were calculated using current routes and Google maps on roads parallel to the railroad.

Northbound is the left time and Southbound is the right time.

I would appreciate feedback.

Thanks for your time.

0 CHICAGO, IL 4:54 PM-11:06 AM

--------------------------------------

29 Dyer, IN 5:15 PM-12:45 PM

74 Rensselaer, IN 4:15 PM-1:45 PM

122 Lafayette, IN 3:11 PM-2:49 PM

149 Crawfordsville, IN 2:35 PM-3:25 PM

196 INDIANAPOLIS, IN 1:32 PM-4:28 PM

239 Columbus, IN 12:35 PM-5:25 PM

279 Scottsburg, IN 11:42 AM-6:18 PM

307 Jeffersonville, IN 11:05 AM-6:55 PM

--------------------------------------

312 LOUISVILLE, KY 10:58 AM-7:02 PM

352 Elizabethtown, KY 10:05 AM-7:55 PM

402 Cave City, KY 8:58 AM-9:02 PM

447 Bowling Green, KY 7:58 AM-10:02 PM

--------------------------------------

497 Gallatin, TN 6:51 AM-11:09 PM

522 NASHVILLE, TN 6:18 AM--11:42 PM

557 Murfreesboro, TN 5:31 AM-12:29 AM

592 Tullahoma, TN 4:44 AM-1:16 AM

--------------------------------------

642 Stevenson, AL 3:37 AM-2:23 AM

--------------------------------------

682 Chattanooga, TN 2:44 AM-3:16 AM

--------------------------------------

717 Dalton, GA 1:57 AM-4:03 AM

742 Calhoun, GA 1:24 AM-4:36 AM

782 Cartersville, GA 12:31 AM-5:29 AM

807 Marietta, GA 11:57 PM-6:03 AM

827 ATLANTA, GA 11:30 PM-6:30 AM

852 McDonough, GA 10:57 PM-7:03 AM

902 Macon, GA 9:50 PM-8:10 AM

922 Warner Robins, GA 9:23 PM-8:37 AM

972 Cordele, GA 8:16 PM-9:44 AM

1007 Fitzgerald, GA 7:29 PM-10:31 AM

1037 Douglas, GA 6:49 PM-11:11 AM

1087 Waycross, GA 5:42 PM-12:18 PM

1122 Folkston, GA 4:55 PM-1:05 PM

--------------------------------------

1162 JACKSONVILLE, FL 4:02 PM-1:58 PM

1162 JACKSONVILLE, FL 3:22 PM-2:28 PM

1220 Palatka, FL 2:05 PM-3:45 PM

1272 DeLand, FL 12:56 PM-4:54 PM

1304 Winter Park, FL 12:13 PM-5:37 PM

1309 ORLANDO, FL 12:06 PM-5:44 PM

1327 Kissimmee, FL 11:42 AM-6:08 PM

1377 Lakeland, FL 10:35 AM-7:15 PM

1408 TAMPA, FL 9:54 AM-7:56 PM

1440 Clearwater, FL 9:11 AM-8:39 PM

1463 ST. PETERSBURG, FL 8:40 AM-9:10 PM

1162 JACKSONVILLE, FL 3:32 PM-2:18 PM

1199 St. Augustine, FL 2:43 PM-3:07 PM

1249 Bunnell, FL 1:36 PM-4:14 PM

1272 Daytona Beach, FL 1:05 PM-4:45 PM

1316 Titusville, FL 12:06 PM-5:44 PM

1356 Melbourne, FL 11:13 AM-6:37 PM

1404 Ft. Pierce, FL 10:09 AM-7:41 PM

1461 West Palm Beach, FL 8:53 AM-8:57 PM

1479 Delray Beach, FL 8:29 AM-9:21 PM

1489 Deerfield Beach, FL 8:16 AM-9:34 PM

1503 Fort Lauderdale, FL 7:57 AM-9:53 PM

1511 Hollywood, FL 7:46 AM-10:04 PM

1531 MIAMI, FL 7:19 AM-10:31 PM

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I'm guessing your northbound time in Chicago is wrong because how can a train leave Dyer and get in Chicago earlier (wouldn't be a time zone difference since they are both the same time).

In theory it's good but it will be expensive.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

Sorry, I did not realize Dyer was Central time. Thanks for the correction.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

Didn't we talk about how this train wouldn't work out a couple times before?

Sorry to discourage you, I had the same idea too

Oh, and you can use the Floridian's mileposts from the 70's at timetables.org .

 

[railiner]

It's always fun to 'construct' a proposed schedule....just a bit curious though....why did you begin the trips at such 'odd' times (instead of on the hour...)?

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

I started in Atlanta and Nashville in order to prevent either one from getting an overnight time. From there I calculated exactly 45 MPH between stations.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

Didn't the Floridian bypass Indianapolis? I believe it also took a further west routing South of Nashville staying in Alabama much longer and bypassing Chatanooga, Atlanta, and Macon. I considered using that same route but this one is shorter and goes through larger cities.

 

[jphjaxfl]

The Kentucky Cardinal is the most recent passenger train on the Louisville and Indiana between Indianapolis. It was very slow averaging about 25 miles per hour, but it was primarily a mail train. It carried Superliner Cars and merged with the Cardinal to/from Chicago at Indianapolis. I rode the Superliner Sleeper once and was the only customer. I got very good service from the SCA. Until the tracks through Indiana are upgraded, no passenger train from Chicago to Florida will make sense. I was a frequent traveler on the Floridian and previous South Wind from Chicago to Florida. In the late 60s before Amtrak, there was still a good passenger train market from Chicago to Florida via the City of Miami/South Wind which operated on alternate days. Unfortunately, the bad tracks that Amtrak had to deal with in the early 1970s drove passengers away with very late trains and being very undependable. Unless a train can be developed that will average 50-55 mph from Chicago to Florida, it would be a huge waste of money that Congress will not consider.

 

[CoachSlumber]

The Kentucky Cardinal is the most recent passenger train on the Louisville and Indiana between Indianapolis. It was very slow averaging about 25 miles per hour, but it was primarily a mail train. It carried Superliner Cars and merged with the Cardinal to/from Chicago at Indianapolis. I rode the Superliner Sleeper once and was the only customer. I got very good service from the SCA. Until the tracks through Indiana are upgraded, no passenger train from Chicago to Florida will make sense. I was a frequent traveler on the Floridian and previous South Wind from Chicago to Florida. In the late 60s before Amtrak, there was still a good passenger train market from Chicago to Florida via the City of Miami/South Wind which operated on alternate days. Unfortunately, the bad tracks that Amtrak had to deal with in the early 1970s drove passengers away with very late trains and being very undependable. Unless a train can be developed that will average 50-55 mph from Chicago to Florida, it would be a huge waste of money that Congress will not consider.

I will always remember boarding the Floridian in Chicago one evening in the late '70s. After departure, a passenger was flabbergasted to learn we would not be arriving in Florida the next morning, but the morning after that.

 

[railiner]

Oh, and you can use the Floridian's mileposts from the 70's at timetables.org .

Maybe for part of the proposed route...(the Floridian went via Birmingham and Montgomery)....

 

[ainamkartma]

If you could get the average speed up to 55 mph (approximately equal to the SWC), you could get a schedule like:

Chicago 8:50 AM 5:00 PM

Indianapolis 6:15 AM 9:30 PM

Louisville 4:10 AM 11:40 PM

Nashville 12:20 AM 3:30 AM

Atlanta 6:50 PM 9:00 AM

Jacksonville 12:45 PM 3:10 PM

Miami 6:00 AM 9:50 PM

By sacrificing reasonable service times at Louisville and Nashville, this schedule creates a business-friendly overnight timing between Chicago and Atlanta and a very long day train between Atlanta and Miami. It also only uses three train sets. Realistic? Probably not... but we can dream, I guess.

Ainam "I would ride that Chicago-Atlanta section in a heartbeat" Kartma

 

[jis]

You'll never get much less than 8 hours from MIA to JAX on the current Amtrak route. An even less likely to get anything even close to that kind of speed beyond that.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

If 55 MPH could be reached, I think the second proposed schedule would work well except I would make the northbound 3 hours later. This would give a better time in Miami and give Louisville a reasonable time, leaving Nashville as the only major city traversed overnight.

 

[railiner]

You'll never get much less than 8 hours from MIA to JAX on the current Amtrak route. An even less likely to get anything even close to that kind of speed beyond that.

Unless they could get it re-routed over the FEC....

 

[jis]

That's why I said "current Amtrak route". After AAF build its JAX service, if Amtrak can run over FEC then 6 hours should be more than feasible. Of course I am sure FEC will extract quite a pretty penny for such access at that point too.

 

[ainamkartma]

If you could get the average speed up to 55 mph (approximately equal to the SWC), you could get a schedule like:

Chicago 8:50 AM 5:00 PM

Indianapolis 6:15 AM 9:30 PM

Louisville 4:10 AM 11:40 PM

Nashville 12:20 AM 3:30 AM

Atlanta 6:50 PM 9:00 AM

Jacksonville 12:45 PM 3:10 PM

Miami 6:00 AM 9:50 PM

By sacrificing reasonable service times at Louisville and Nashville, this schedule creates a business-friendly overnight timing between Chicago and Atlanta and a very long day train between Atlanta and Miami. It also only uses three train sets. Realistic? Probably not... but we can dream, I guess.

Ainam "I would ride that Chicago-Atlanta section in a heartbeat" Kartma

OK, here's a concept. Since we will Real Soon Now have fast day service between Jacksonville and Miami on AAF, maybe the smart thing to do is terminate the South Wind at Jacksonville and let the Florida passengers connect onto AAF trains. Then the South Wind train set can be used to renew the "Sunrise Limited" by sending the same train overnight to New Orleans. So the schedule would look something like:

Chicago 8:50 AM 5:00 PM

Indianapolis 6:15 AM 9:30 PM

Louisville 4:10 AM 11:40 PM

Nashville 12:20 AM 3:30 AM

Atlanta 6:50 PM 9:00 AM

Jacksonville 12:45 PM 3:10 PM

Jacksonville 8:40 AM 6:30 PM

Tallahassee 4:30 AM 10:00 PM

Mobile 6:20 PM 5:30 AM

New Orleans 2:30 PM 10:20 AM

(The times for the Jacksonville-New Orleans section are from the 2002 Sunset Limited timetable, suitably offset to make the connections.)

This schedule uses four train sets.

The assumptions here are that you can make 55 mph average north of Jacksonville, that four train sets and relevant trackage rights magically appear, and that you can service and turn a train in four hours at New Orleans.

Note that this schedule allows a same day connection at New Orleans from the Sunrise Limited to the CONO, but not to the Sunset Limited and not from either existing train to the Sunrise Limited. That's pretty much a given as long as Amtrak sticks to afternoon to evening arrivals for the New Orleans trains.

Ainam "Main problem with Amtrak: on the ground, so I can't get Pie in the Sky in the diner" Kartma

 

[jis]

Might as well us the proposed timetable from the Southern Rail Commission Report for the self standing JAX NOL train

JAX 7:45p

NOL 9:30a

NOL 5:00p

JAX 8:15a

 

[ainamkartma]

Might as well us the proposed timetable from the Southern Rail Commission Report for the self standing JAX NOL train

JAX 7:45p

NOL 9:30a

NOL 5:00p

JAX 8:15a

Do you know what is the method they intend to use to so dramatically speed up the schedule relative to 2002?

Thanks,

Ainam "Not that I'm objecting" Kartma

 

[jis]

Might as well us the proposed timetable from the Southern Rail Commission Report for the self standing JAX NOL train

JAX 7:45p

NOL 9:30a

NOL 5:00p

JAX 8:15a

Do you know what is the method they intend to use to so dramatically speed up the schedule relative to 2002?

Thanks,

Ainam "Not that I'm objecting" Kartma

I don't know. It is a report that Amtrak put together and I have no reason to disbelieve them.

For methodology details read the report (PDF) at http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5302778ee4b07a6f640874ef/t/5670735bd8af10d0d84e4965/1450210139160/Gulf+Coast+Initiative+Report+2015.pdf

 

[Palmetto]

You'll never get much less than 8 hours from MIA to JAX on the current Amtrak route. An even less likely to get anything even close to that kind of speed beyond that.

Unless they could get it re-routed over the FEC....

Nah, the folks in Martin County wouldn't allow that.

 

[jis]

Martin County actually did want the Amtrak service, surprisingly.

 

[railiner]

You'll never get much less than 8 hours from MIA to JAX on the current Amtrak route. An even less likely to get anything even close to that kind of speed beyond that.

Unless they could get it re-routed over the FEC....

Nah, the folks in Martin County wouldn't allow that.

Why do you say that? What reason(s) could they possibly have to object to it?

I can't think of any reason for a location to not want train service, unless they had to pay for the privilege of its availability......

 

[jis]

He is partly joking about the famous NIMBYs of Martin County who are mightily opposing AAF.

 

[Palmetto]

Well, Martin County does, in fact, have train service. It's in Indiantown, not that there's a load rich, powerful NIMBYs there.

 

[ainamkartma]

Might as well us the proposed timetable from the Southern Rail Commission Report for the self standing JAX NOL train

JAX 7:45p

NOL 9:30a

NOL 5:00p

JAX 8:15a

Do you know what is the method they intend to use to so dramatically speed up the schedule relative to 2002?

Thanks,

Ainam "Not that I'm objecting" Kartma

I don't know. It is a report that Amtrak put together and I have no reason to disbelieve them.

For methodology details read the report (PDF) at http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5302778ee4b07a6f640874ef/t/5670735bd8af10d0d84e4965/1450210139160/Gulf+Coast+Initiative+Report+2015.pdf

Thanks for the link. It makes interesting reading. Unfortunately, unless I missed it, it does not include any description of how the "conceptual" schedules were developed. I guess they are assuming the timekeeping problems with the Sunset Limited would be resolved somehow in some new deal with the host railroad. For what it is worth, their conceptual schedule has an average speed of about 44 mph between Jacksonville and New Orleans, while the 2002 SL schedule had an average speed of 37 mph over the same track.

Ainam "Fastest Tour de France stage speed ever: 34.5 mph" Kartma