Fire Richard Anderson Campaign?

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Hey, if I ever become a billionaire I'll happily pay for the return of station agents, checked baggage, hot meal service, and the PPCs. ;)
Nah! Buy my own private cars. Pay the railroads to carry me (and a few of you peons - after all, I'll be a big shot then) around. We'll make all those Amtrak trains sit on the sidings as the railroads prioritize their long trains. Of course, I'll need enough cars to not fit on the sidings. Free freshly cooked food and drinks of every type (for me). I'll treat for Amtrak "Fresh Choices" for you guys. I'll hire the great Amtrak car and dining people so all that are left on Amtrak are the grumps. :D
 
I am sorry to say you are way disconnected from reality. See Philly’s post for a very brief intro to reality.
emoji57.png
you or anyone else did not have much of anything that you think you had. What do you suppose the Reagan/Stockman and the Carter cuts were all about? Growth?
emoji849.png
What is with the snark? I really don’t appreciate it.

All the stuff Anderson has done away with in the past year or so had survived thus far, including through both of the cuts you mentioned as well as the first “glide path” which was much more of an existential crisis for Amtrak than anything that is going on right now. No one is trying to argue that previous cuts were about growth or anything as ridiculous as that.
 
Circling back to the rural service discussion...

I spent three days at a state-level economic development conference last week, and went to the infrastructure and rural development breakout sessions (it's my job). Rail transportation – passenger or freight – wasn't mentioned a single time in the rural development sessions. Not once.

Commuter/corridor rail was mentioned several times in the infrastructure breakouts and the general sessions, in the context of housing. There's a push by some in California to loosen development rules around public transportation hubs and build denser, multistory housing, particularly around stations. It's seen as a way to get cars off of highways (always a major issue here) and do something about the cost of living, which is being driven through the roof in urban areas because of a lack of supply.

High speed rail, or rather a high speed rail station (the first in the U.S. :D ), got a shout out from the former mayor of Fresno, otherwise it was ignored.

Passenger rail will play an important role in 21st century transportation policy, but Amtrak's long distance trains aren't a part of it.
 
You know, what this makes me think is that we're dealing with two different natural markets. Yes, for the corridors and commuter routes there needs to be a public operator such as Amtrak (or METRA, SEPTA, etc.). No railroad manager in his or her right mind who is familiar with history wants to get back into the thankless grind of operating something such as the Pennsylvania ran in the northeast on their own into the early '60s, except possibly as a contract operation for a client who is on the hook for capital and operating expenses. And, in many of these areas, Neroden's oft-expressed wish for government to purchase the infrastructure may make sense.

But when we turn to long-distance routes, we have a completely separate natural market. Here we're talking about layering one or perhaps two passenger trains a day on an infrastructure which is already heavily used for freight and maintained and dispatched by a private operator with its own priorities. Yes, many of them currently regard passenger trains as a nuisance and shove them towards the margins as much as possible. If we're going to change that, we need to change the incentives.

You may recall that it was those railroads with significant commuter and short-distance operations which were most desperate for the relief which Amtrak promised...Penn Central is the poster child here. Santa Fe and SCL, which were almost exclusively long-distance operators, were hesitant to join at all. Southern actually held out for ten years.

Private railroad operators are not going to make a profit competing against subsidized highways and airlines which bear virtually no right-of-way costs if left to their own devices, as the sentiment was up until 1971. But I think that if we recognize that fact, and if we provide strong, ongoing tax and operating subsidy initiatives which tip the balance, we can persuade at least some of the Class Ones to reconsider their stance on passenger rail. And I believe that if we did so with a way to give them skin in the game with the possibility of a real profit if the service is run well, the LD dispatching and timekeeping woes would largely be ameliorated.

Since the unspoken agenda of several posters here seems to be to take a meat axe to all of the LDs outside of the corridors, do the rest of you think that this option is at least worthy of exploration?
 
You know, what this makes me think is that we're dealing with two different natural markets. Yes, for the corridors and commuter routes there needs to be a public operator such as Amtrak (or METRA, SEPTA, etc.). No railroad manager in his or her right mind who is familiar with history wants to get back into the thankless grind of operating something such as the Pennsylvania ran in the northeast on their own into the early '60s, except possibly as a contract operation for a client who is on the hook for capital and operating expenses. And, in many of these areas, Neroden's oft-expressed wish for government to purchase the infrastructure may make sense.

But when we turn to long-distance routes, we have a completely separate natural market. Here we're talking about layering one or perhaps two passenger trains a day on an infrastructure which is already heavily used for freight and maintained and dispatched by a private operator with its own priorities. Yes, many of them currently regard passenger trains as a nuisance and shove them towards the margins as much as possible. If we're going to change that, we need to change the incentives.

You may recall that it was those railroads with significant commuter and short-distance operations which were most desperate for the relief which Amtrak promised...Penn Central is the poster child here. Santa Fe and SCL, which were almost exclusively long-distance operators, were hesitant to join at all. Southern actually held out for ten years.

Private railroad operators are not going to make a profit competing against subsidized highways and airlines which bear virtually no right-of-way costs if left to their own devices, as the sentiment was up until 1971. But I think that if we recognize that fact, and if we provide strong, ongoing tax and operating subsidy initiatives which tip the balance, we can persuade at least some of the Class Ones to reconsider their stance on passenger rail. And I believe that if we did so with a way to give them skin in the game with the possibility of a real profit if the service is run well, the LD dispatching and timekeeping woes would largely be ameliorated.

Since the unspoken agenda of several posters here seems to be to take a meat axe to all of the LDs outside of the corridors, do the rest of you think that this option is at least worthy of exploration?
Can’t think of anyone better to contract the service out to. Base a percentage of payments on, on time performance as well. It’s right on so many levels.
 
If Amtrak's current track use payments are so small as to not be in an incentive to prioritize passenger trains over freight traffic, then it stands to reason that, all else being equal, they need to be higher in order for passenger traffic to operate reliably on time.  A passenger train would have to represent more revenue than the amount of income generated by however many freight trains are not able to run because of the capacity taken up by the passenger train.  In that context, the operator doesn't matter--it could be Amtrak, it could be Iowa Pacific, it could be the freight railroad itself. 

But that money needs to come from somewhere--where?  It has to be the federal government, doesn't it?  Even if you use non-cash subsidies such as tax breaks, the difference still has to be made up by taxpayers.  And it should be self-evident that such a strategy would cost even more than what Amtrak receives in operating subsidies today, since its current payments are insufficient to ensure timely service.  If it's one's opinion that long distance trains are worth the federal subsidy in general, then Amtrak is as good an operator as any, probably marginally better since indirect costs can be amortized over more trains, instead of each operator maintaining their own customer service channels, administrative staff, mechanical sites, etc.  If you don't think that the network returns enough to justify the subsidy, then the operator isn't going to make a difference because it's not going to make the financial demands disappear.

It's also not accurate to say that highway and airline users pay no right of way costs--on road diesel is taxed for the highway fund, and airplanes pay landing fees to the airports every time they hit the tarmac.  It's not enough to make the infrastructure self-sustaining, but then the same is true of Amtrak's access payments.
 
If Amtrak's current track use payments are so small as to not be in an incentive to prioritize passenger trains over freight traffic, then it stands to reason that, all else being equal, they need to be higher in order for passenger traffic to operate reliably on time.  A passenger train would have to represent more revenue than the amount of income generated by however many freight trains are not able to run because of the capacity taken up by the passenger train.  In that context, the operator doesn't matter--it could be Amtrak, it could be Iowa Pacific, it could be the freight railroad itself.
I'm not saying that this is a no-cost proposition. Restoring a viable intercity rail passenger structure after decades of neglect and direct subsidies to competitors will require substantial and ongoing effort and expense. My preferred solution would entail three levels of subsidies and incentives: First, a complete exemption from state and local property taxation on all rail lines which host a qualifying passenger service. To qualify the service would have to meet capacity requirements appropriate to the population served and meet minimum on-time performance criteria. The host railroad would benefit from this regardless of who operates the service, whether that be they themselves or a third party such as Amtrak. But delay the Empire Builder all summer long, and you lose the tax exemption. Second, an "opportunity" subsidy paid to the operator of the service for every seat made available, whether occupied or not. Not enough to make it profitable to run empty trains, but enough so that you're not tempted to slash capacity during a temporary downturn. Finally, an "incentive" subsidy paid for every occupied passenger seat. There is no more effective subsidy than to leverage the consumer's dollar, and this would provide a real incentive to not only provide those seats but to make sure they are filled. And isn't that the point, getting travelers off the highways?

In addition, after all these years of neglect there will need to be capital costs for facilities and equipment. As the federal government has poured trillions into infrastructure to competitors, I believe that they need to step up and guarantee these loans as well. For expenses directly related to passenger trains such as new equipment or remodeled stations, the note should be written so that if the subsidies above are withdrawn or reduced the government assumes full liability for the debt. For other tangential expenses which benefit the railroad as a whole, such as perhaps double-tracking the Hi-Line, the government should not be on the hook if the subsidies change but should agree to provide capital at a below market rate.
 

  And it should be self-evident that such a strategy would cost even more than what Amtrak receives in operating subsidies today, since its current payments are insufficient to ensure timely service.  If it's one's opinion that long distance trains are worth the federal subsidy in general, then Amtrak is as good an operator as any, probably marginally better since indirect costs can be amortized over more trains, instead of each operator maintaining their own customer service channels, administrative staff, mechanical sites, etc.  If you don't think that the network returns enough to justify the subsidy, then the operator isn't going to make a difference because it's not going to make the financial demands disappear.
I don't think it's self-evident. If you think that Amtrak is as good an operator as any, I have a bridge to sell you. Right now it appears that Amtrak is shifting costs from the Northeast Corridor and similar to the LD trains which are not even peripherally related, although with their impenetrable accounting it's difficult to say for certain. Again, I think that the best incentive is to leverage the consumer's dollar; pay the LD train operator the most to put butts in the seats.

And I'm not saying that we need to do away with Amtrak LD, either. They have existing facilities and equipment; it's quite possible that an operator such as Union Pacific would want the tax breaks offered but would prefer to have the actual trains continue to be run by Amtrak. Well, if they have a big $$$ incentive to maintain good on-time performance over the road, it's a win-win for everyone concerned. Perhaps BNSF looks at Amtrak's performance and says, "You know, I think we could do better if we ran these in-house." Let them try.

It's also not accurate to say that highway and airline users pay no right of way costs--on road diesel is taxed for the highway fund, and airplanes pay landing fees to the airports every time they hit the tarmac.  It's not enough to make the infrastructure self-sustaining, but then the same is true of Amtrak's access payments.
I'm not saying that highway users have no right of way costs, but I am saying that the costs they pay are not even in league with the cost of providing the right-of-way. One fully loaded axle on a large truck does as much damage to the roadway surface as 10,000 passenger cars. So a loaded 18-wheeler causes as much damage per mile as 45,000 passenger cars...does it pay 45,000 times the fuel tax? Well, when you consider that I used to drive 18-wheelers and I averaged 4-5 mpg loaded...no. Plus, 18-wheelers and buses are on the highway most of the time. Ninety percent of my driving...or more...is done around town on urban freeways and streets. I might take one long road trip a year. Say I spend a week in Fort Worth...but the cost of providing the highway, which I use only one week a year, is subsidized by the other 51 weeks' worth of gas taxes I pay while commuting to and from work. The only marginal cost out of my own pocket (since I already pay to own and keep up the car) is a tank's worth of gas...and for that I can carry three passengers. How is any railroad supposed to be able to provide a reasonable alternative service for that without a substantial subsidy?

Airlines also pay for operation of the ATC system, but last I checked God doesn't charge royalties to fly between Dallas and Houston. Maybe He should. And they don't bear the full burden of their costs, either; air traffic control is a substantial line item in the federal budget. Landing fees are a thing also, I agree...I was a (private) pilot for a while, too...but municipalities don't consider airports (or highways!) a profit center as they all too often look at railroads. My Google-fu is not serving well right now and I've got to run to Mom & Dad's for dinner, but I remember reading an actual case where the Northern Pacific railroad was once responsible for paying 95% of the school taxes in a rural county which they didn't even have a station stop in.

So I'm not saying that any of this would be free or even cheap...but neither is what we're doing now. We simply can't build freeways fast enough! Rail is capable of providing a lot of flexibility, especially to rural and secondary communities...let's leverage the existing infrastructure as much as possible.
 
You know, what this makes me think is that we're dealing with two different natural markets. Yes, for the corridors and commuter routes there needs to be a public operator such as Amtrak (or METRA, SEPTA, etc.). No railroad manager in his or her right mind who is familiar with history wants to get back into the thankless grind of operating something such as the Pennsylvania ran in the northeast on their own into the early '60s, except possibly as a contract operation for a client who is on the hook for capital and operating expenses. And, in many of these areas, Neroden's oft-expressed wish for government to purchase the infrastructure may make sense.

But when we turn to long-distance routes, we have a completely separate natural market.
Well, if you exclude the Lake Shore Limited, Capitol Limited, Silver Meteor, Silver Star, and Crescent from your "long distance routes" category.  They're extended corridors, with lengthy operations on Amtrak and state-dispatched track.  And due to the extremely unwise privatization of Conrail, there's no way to get any single freight operator to run the LSL or the CL.  They need their own passenger-operator-controlled tracks.

It wouldn't be crazy to ask BNSF if it wants to be the contract operator of the Empire Builder or the Southwest Chief.  Trying to do the same on the East Coast is crazy.
 
If Anderson and Co really want to play this game. Game on. They claim the SWC costs $100,000,000 a year to operate depending on what memo you read, which way the winds blowing etc. Give that $100,000,000 to BNSF and ask them run the train. The train would run on time and BNSF would have operational control over what is now a nuisance to them. Win win. 

The KEY directly take it off the top of Amtrak’s subsidy. We talked about it a few days ago on here, even at 90 percent subsidy for the contractor Amtrak would surely change its tune when they see their subsidy shrink. 
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Even if in a fit of madness, a Member road wanted to operate an intercity passenger train, they are barred by RPSA70. As part of the Agreement, they surrendered their franchise to do so. That being said, if another party, such as Virgin Rail, wanted to operate a train and they and a road could agree to terms, then bring it on.
 
I think the bottom line is, it may be time to bury RPSA70, or what has not already been obsoleted, for good, and start with a fresh clean slate. It was mostly a pretty lousy piece of legislation from the perspective of the customer anyway. [emoji6]
 
So, I looked up the RPSA...and per the link below, it looks like the whole bill has been repealed.
http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title45/chapter14&edition=prelim

With this in mind, and given that Indiana was able to contract with Iowa Pacific (that's key in my mind) and given the nature of the "must trial out three LD routes for others to bid on" bit last time around, I don't think a legal case against one of the Class Is looking to run their own train would hold up.  It would seem to be the express will of the Congress to have non-Amtrak operators "in the mix", after all...

In theory, let's pick on BNSF and the Chief.  Let's say that BNSF turned up tomorrow morning and said "Hey, Amtrak?  Since you don't want that train, we'd like to take it over.  We've got access rights along the whole route [1], if Amtrak objects to us using Union Station we can just go into LaSalle Street, here's our equipment plan, so we'd like that $XX million please-and-thank-you."  If Amtrak tried to refuse, I think they'd get slam-dunked in court on the grounds that they basically failed to run the trial program under the last authorization act.

The biggest issue getting the Class Is involved, aside from the size of the incentives, etc. is that a bunch of trains now operate over strange mixes of tracks...and it's not like it's a couple of regional roads like back in the day (e.g. CBQ/DRGW/WP) who, when passing trains through, often weren't also competing with one another.

[1] I believe they retain access rights in Southern CA.  This was intended for freight traffic, but I don't see SCRRA objecting.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
One observation. Iowa Pacific never operated the Hoosier State. Amtrak operated the train using Iowa Pacific rolling stock with Iowa Pacific providing OBS. All the T&E crew was always Amtrak.
Does the word "operate" really have such a specific meaning that you'd be wrong to say that a company operated a train when they provided the rolling stock and onboard staff? It really can only refer to T&E?
 
Well, if you exclude the Lake Shore Limited, Capitol Limited, Silver Meteor, Silver Star, and Crescent from your "long distance routes" category.
And don't forget about the CONO (shares CHI-CDL with the Illini/Saluki), Coast Starlight (shares LAX-SNC with the Surfliner, and EUG-SEA with the Cascades), Cardinal (NEC), and the Texas Eagle (shares CHI-STL with the Lincoln Service).
 
And don't forget about the CONO (shares CHI-CDL with the Illini/Saluki), Coast Starlight (shares LAX-SNC with the Surfliner, and EUG-SEA with the Cascades), Cardinal (NEC), and the Texas Eagle (shares CHI-STL with the Lincoln Service).
It shares the route, but I believe Neroden was talking about the underlying host railroad. The Lake Shore Limited, in particular...the rail landscape has changed substantially from the days when New York Central owned and dispatched every inch of track from Grand Central Terminal to the La Salle St. Station throat. Union Pacific still operates freight and dispatches CHI-STL, so that could be a pretty seamless extension of the northern end of the Texas Eagle...the southern end though still has BNSF in the mix between Fort Worth & Temple. The Cardinal is another mishmash. Still, I don't see any showstoppers if the LD railroads are $uffi¢iently motivated...look at the original (heavyweight era) itinerary of the Crescent, for example.
 
Does the word "operate" really have such a specific meaning that you'd be wrong to say that a company operated a train when they provided the rolling stock and onboard staff? It really can only refer to T&E?
The usual meaning of operate is the guys who drive the train, from the perspective of the operations folks. In some cases one could say that the guys who fund the service operate it. However Iowa Pacific had neither of those two roles viz-a-viz the Hoosier State. They were the ones who leased out the equipment to IDOT and provided OBS under contract to IDOT.
 
If Amtrak's current track use payments are so small as to not be in an incentive to prioritize passenger trains over freight traffic, then it stands to reason that, all else being equal, they need to be higher in order for passenger traffic to operate reliably on time.  A passenger train would have to represent more revenue than the amount of income generated by however many freight trains are not able to run because of the capacity taken up by the passenger train.  In that context, the operator doesn't matter--it could be Amtrak, it could be Iowa Pacific, it could be the freight railroad itself. 

But that money needs to come from somewhere--where?  It has to be the federal government, doesn't it?  Even if you use non-cash subsidies such as tax breaks, the difference still has to be made up by taxpayers.  And it should be self-evident that such a strategy would cost even more than what Amtrak receives in operating subsidies today, since its current payments are insufficient to ensure timely service.  If it's one's opinion that long distance trains are worth the federal subsidy in general, then Amtrak is as good an operator as any, probably marginally better since indirect costs can be amortized over more trains, instead of each operator maintaining their own customer service channels, administrative staff, mechanical sites, etc.  If you don't think that the network returns enough to justify the subsidy, then the operator isn't going to make a difference because it's not going to make the financial demands disappear.

It's also not accurate to say that highway and airline users pay no right of way costs--on road diesel is taxed for the highway fund, and airplanes pay landing fees to the airports every time they hit the tarmac.  It's not enough to make the infrastructure self-sustaining, but then the same is true of Amtrak's access payments.
Remember reading a Trains article in the 90s that stated BNSF made money on the SWC because of ontime bonuses and the fact BNSF did not have to own the equipment (Amtrak) only run the train between its fast freights. Now what has changed since then and now I have no idea.
 
If Anderson and Co really want to play this game. Game on. They claim the SWC costs $100,000,000 a year to operate depending on what memo you read, which way the winds blowing etc. Give that $100,000,000 to BNSF and ask them run the train. The train would run on time and BNSF would have operational control over what is now a nuisance to them. Win win. 

The KEY directly take it off the top of Amtrak’s subsidy. We talked about it a few days ago on here, even at 90 percent subsidy for the contractor Amtrak would surely change its tune when they see their subsidy shrink. 
Innovative idea, but I would guess one would not like what the SWC would look like if you gave BNSF the subsidy instead Amtrak. Stations would still be non staffed, even less stations staffed, checked baggage gone (one less car) food choices contracted, and probably running with one unit on a slower schedule. In return, one would be able to count on it at least being on time.
 
Remember reading a Trains article in the 90s that stated BNSF made money on the SWC because of ontime bonuses and the fact BNSF did not have to own the equipment (Amtrak) only run the train between its fast freights. Now what has changed since then and now I have no idea.
Through the 80's, the trains ran on time as the performance psyments were liberal enough for the Class I's, as well as a lesser level of traffic than today, to "give 'em the railroad".

But during the 90's, or back in "glide path" days, Amtrak had to pare the performance payments, then traffic increased, and you end up with "today".
 
So, I looked up the RPSA...and per the link below, it looks like the whole bill has been repealed.
http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title45/chapter14&edition=prelim
This was part of the codification of Title 49 -- bits of it were "repealed and re-enacted" by various laws -- so it isn't all *really* repealed.

The surviving provisions, from this and a large number of subsequent laws, are in Title 49, Subtitle V, mostly Part C.  Sorted into a more rational order.

http://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title49/subtitle5/partC&edition=prelim

I took a look through it; the most important provision is section 24308, obviously.  Section 24309 is also important.  Section 24311(c) is the big stick.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ok, IANAL but this is an interesting clause:
"(a) General Authority.—(1) Amtrak may make an agreement with a rail carrier or regional transportation authority to use facilities of, and have services provided by, the carrier or authority under terms on which the parties agree. The terms shall include a penalty for untimely performance."

Emphasis mine.

I'm a bit confused by this, since I'd always heard that Amtrak wasn't allowed to include penalties for poor performance.
 
Back
Top