Flying by LCC, ULCC and Charter

[BCL]

The introduction of basic economy fares has changed the industry. The regulated airline markets had high pricing but much higher service levels as well. I actually miss many aspects of the regulated airline industry because it made for a better experience. I feel airlines have been commoditized and it just isn’t the same. The passengers were wealthier and a lot more professional as well. And flight crews were more professional. Nowadays all you hear is conflict between airlines including flight crews and passengers on the media. Spirit and Frontier have a high incident rate with these.

Reported incidents are probably higher, in addition to considerably more people traveling by air.

But in the past there were certainly a lot of people flying who were entitled but where the airlines chose not to report it for fear of losing otherwise good customers. The worst was probably that flight attendants were groped quite often. It was never legal per se, but there was a societal change as well as far better understanding that it's not a harmless prank. But absolutely it was a wink wink, nudge nudge that they were selling a fantasy of young, attractive women. There was a maximum age (typically 35), and getting married or having children would get a flight attendant fired. But only if they were women. They were forced to wear girdles as well as wear uncomfortable shoes.

 

[Ryan]

Spirit and Frontier have a high incident rate with these.

[citation needed]

 

[adamj023]

Just look at the mass media for all the flight incidents. I’ve seen numerous on multiple airlines but it seems to be a few more on Spirit and Frontier combined in my own opinion, I haven’t counted the number of incidents per airline, but it just seems like its a few more on the ULCC’s than the others from the media stories I’ve seen whether it be on flight or at the airport.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Just look at the mass media for all the flight incidents. I’ve seen numerous on multiple airlines but it seems to be a few more on Spirit and Frontier combined in my own opinion, I haven’t counted the number of incidents per airline, but it just seems like its a few more on the ULCC’s than the others from the media stories I’ve seen whether it be on flight or at the airport.

So, we should believe mass media?

 

[Ryan]

Just look at the mass media for all the flight incidents. I’ve seen numerous on multiple airlines but it seems to be a few more on Spirit and Frontier combined in my own opinion, I haven’t counted the number of incidents per airline, but it just seems like its a few more on the ULCC’s than the others from the media stories I’ve seen whether it be on flight or at the airport.

So you completely made it up and then based your conclusions on it. Got it.

 

[tgstubbs1]

Before ULCCs there were charter flights. Probably less luxurious than the regular airlines. I don't know if they had incidents in flight. They had a different way of booking and handling passengers maybe.

 

[Trogdor]

Just look at the mass media for all the flight incidents. I’ve seen numerous on multiple airlines but it seems to be a few more on Spirit and Frontier combined in my own opinion, I haven’t counted the number of incidents per airline, but it just seems like its a few more on the ULCC’s than the others from the media stories I’ve seen whether it be on flight or at the airport.

There can be bias in which incidents get reported by the media. To put another way, anecdote =/= data. Opinion is definitely =/= data.

Interestingly, finding actual per-airline data isn’t that easy. The FAA reports total incidents, but I didn’t see any indication of a breakdown by airline.

 

[MARC Rider]

Before ULCCs there were charter flights. Probably less luxurious than the regular airlines. I don't know if they had incidents in flight. They had a different way of booking and handling passengers maybe.

I did my trip to Japan using a charter flight. On the way out, they put our group in a regularly scheduled flight, a DC-10, I think. Same service as the regular customers. On the way back, our group had its own plane, a DC-8 that had more cramped seating than the DC-10. I think the food service was the same, though. The group was mostly Japanese students in the US who used it to get home for summer vacation. They were very well behaved, and there were no "incidents." This was back in 1978.

 

[adamj023]

No I didn’t make up these incidents. They have videos on the internet. Some aviation police even have bodycam videos of these incidents such as a flight that was diverted to New Mexico and perpetrator was taken into custody. The last one I saw was a Frontier flight where someone had to be restrained. The data is public. If a pax is disruptive in flight and has to be restrained, often flights are diverted. I don’t know the specific details on a per airline basis, but it appears to me that I’ve seem more on Spirit and Frontier combined from legitimate incidents that have been reported and have been verified by authorities that have had an incident. However all airlines have had incidents and I do not know the statistics on a per airline basis. There is a huge increase over past incidents across airlines in general.

I am fortunate to never have been on a flight with an incident on board with the airlines I have used. Most I’ve experienced were delays and some rough flying due to weather.

If someone does have the stats on a per airline basis for onboard incidents, I have not seen it yet and I would assume Frontier and Spirit combined would be above the others in the domestic USA. The ULCC model just doesn’t seem like a pleasant way to travel.

 

[tgstubbs1]

Was it United that has the big no fly list?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

As for basing numbers on media, I would say that American, United and Delta have the greatest number of incidents of unruly people since those are the one's I've seen over the last two years. I can't recall seeing any about Spirit and maybe one or two about Frontier.
That being said, I would not presume to rate the airlines based on my limited access to the data.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

The ULCC model just doesn’t seem like a pleasant way to travel.

My recent experience on Spirit was excellent. They, unlike the legacy carriers, as far as I can tell, are still blocking off middle seats. At least for my two flights. And the flight attendant on one of my flights came to me to acknowledge she knew I may need assistance for my disability. She even asked if I wanted her to lower her mask so I could read her lips. That has been hit or miss on even the legacy carriers over the years for me.

 

[Trogdor]

No I didn’t make up these incidents. They have videos on the internet. Some aviation police even have bodycam videos of these incidents such as a flight that was diverted to New Mexico and perpetrator was taken into custody. The last one I saw was a Frontier flight where someone had to be restrained. The data is public. If a pax is disruptive in flight and has to be restrained, often flights are diverted. I don’t know the specific details on a per airline basis, but it appears to me that I’ve seem more on Spirit and Frontier combined from legitimate incidents that have been reported and have been verified by authorities that have had an incident. However all airlines have had incidents and I do not know the statistics on a per airline basis. There is a huge increase over past incidents across airlines in general.

Nobody said you made up the incidents. The point is, and always has been, that just because you happen to see a video of something doesn’t mean that is the most prevalent thing that occurs. One needs actual data, which has not been provided, to state which airlines actually have the most incidents.

I mean, based on what I’ve seen on news video clips, most athletes are amazing all-stars that routinely make game-saving catches. Or, maybe it’s that the 99% that don’t meet that description never get much reporting.

 

[Ryan]

No I didn’t make up these incidents. They have videos on the internet. Some aviation police even have bodycam videos of these incidents such as a flight that was diverted to New Mexico and perpetrator was taken into custody. The last one I saw was a Frontier flight where someone had to be restrained. The data is public. If a pax is disruptive in flight and has to be restrained, often flights are diverted. I don’t know the specific details on a per airline basis, but it appears to me that I’ve seem more on Spirit and Frontier combined from legitimate incidents that have been reported and have been verified by authorities that have had an incident. However all airlines have had incidents and I do not know the statistics on a per airline basis. There is a huge increase over past incidents across airlines in general.

I am fortunate to never have been on a flight with an incident on board with the airlines I have used. Most I’ve experienced were delays and some rough flying due to weather.

If someone does have the stats on a per airline basis for onboard incidents, I have not seen it yet and I would assume Frontier and Spirit combined would be above the others in the domestic USA. The ULCC model just doesn’t seem like a pleasant way to travel.

You continue to fundamentally misunderstand what everyone is talking about. Literally nobody is arguing that these incidents happen. You claim to not "know the specific details on a per airline basis" but conclude these things happen on Frontier/Spirit more often based on some vague recollection, likely tied in with your recollection of the good old days when "wealthier and a lot more professional" and seem to be concluding that it's the poor trashy people that *must* be doing this more often. This ties nicely in with your claim that passengers on these airlines are poor and too stupid to realize "In the vast majority of cases, the customer is paying more with less service quality", again, without substantiation that the customer actually is paying more . This is knowable information if you trouble yourself to do so. Go research the revenue per available seat mile (RASM) by carrier and demonstrate that they are in fact paying more (hint: you're probably going to find the opposite).

You have an entire worldview built up on things that aren't factually accurate. I can't recall ever seeing one of these incidents on Spirit or Frontier, so I can only conclude that the people that fly those airlines are the most well-behaved passengers on the planet.

When your conclusions are based on things that are untrue, they're somewhere between worthless and actively harmful, and that describes nearly every contribution you have made to this discussion. Produce the data that backs up your claims, retract your claims, or continue to be irrelevant and provide nothing of value. Your choice.

 

[toddinde]

The introduction of basic economy fares has changed the industry. The regulated airline markets had high pricing but much higher service levels as well. I actually miss many aspects of the regulated airline industry because it made for a better experience. I feel airlines have been commoditized and it just isn’t the same. The passengers were wealthier and a lot more professional as well. And flight crews were more professional. Nowadays all you hear is conflict between airlines including flight crews and passengers on the media. Spirit and Frontier have a high incident rate with these.

Most people that fly a lot have a usual airline, gain status, and concentrate their frequent flyer miles. That leaves the infrequent traveler shopping for the cheapest fares, and they frequently end up on Frontier and Spirit. People who fly regularly aren’t going to give flight crews a hard time. They end up being on the same team; everyone wants to get home safely and quickly. When you fly a lot you know how to get on and off the plane, and get comfortable quickly. The amateurs get drunk, act crazy, can’t put their giant carryons in the overhead, complain about every single thing, and are generally just a huge pain. When I see an amateur get on the plane, I’m just like “oh no, what craziness are they going to pull now?” It’s beyond irritating. The train is more forgiving of clowns, but they even manage to screw that up. Particularly irritating are the sleeping car passengers that think they’re Lucius Beebe on the 20th Century Limited. They also throw a fit about every little thing. Ok, I’ve vented. I’m done.

 

[adamj023]

Most people that fly a lot have a usual airline, gain status, and concentrate their frequent flyer miles. That leaves the infrequent traveler shopping for the cheapest fares, and they frequently end up on Frontier and Spirit. People who fly regularly aren’t going to give flight crews a hard time. They end up being on the same team; everyone wants to get home safely and quickly. When you fly a lot you know how to get on and off the plane, and get comfortable quickly. The amateurs get drunk, act crazy, can’t put their giant carryons in the overhead, complain about every single thing, and are generally just a huge pain. When I see an amateur get on the plane, I’m just like “oh no, what craziness are they going to pull now?” It’s beyond irritating. The train is more forgiving of clowns, but they even manage to screw that up. Particularly irritating are the sleeping car passengers that think they’re Lucius Beebe on the 20th Century Limited. They also throw a fit about every little thing. Ok, I’ve vented. I’m done.

As the pandemic eventually ends, I hope airlines will compete on improving service levels and less on price. I personally am not looking for an ultra low cost fare but rather a fare based on a decent quality of service and a fair price for services. The ULCC market exists and those price sensitive customers have a place to go. I don’t travel that much and have used multiple airlines but never the ULCC airlines. Some airline routes including nearby airports have multiple competitors including ULCC airlines. While the ULCC carriers are cheaper and worse on those routes, most of the other airlines don’t have all that much differentiation. You choose based on the alliance you frequent such as Skyteam, Star or Oneworld, price or service schedules.

 

[jebr]

While the ULCC carriers are cheaper and worse on those routes

There's ways that ULCCs aren't "worse" - and may be better - beyond price:

• Seating: this one is probably most clearly in favor of non-ULCCs, but if you're stuck in a market with regional jet hell, is a Spirit or Frontier seat much worse than a CRJ-900 economy seat? If you include cost into the equation, someone may be able to upgrade into a seat that rivals (or betters) many of the legacy airlines - particularly Spirit's Big Front Seat.
• Schedules: very market-dependent. Particularly at airports where there's no airline using it as their hub, ULCCs can have more desirable schedules. Looking at non-stops Cleveland to Orlando, on March 1 Spirit has one trip, United has 2 trips, and Frontier has 3 trips. At least for that market, the ULCC has the best non-stop schedule! Sure, you can connect through other airports, but connections aren't always pleasant and add additional points of failure (storm in NYC? Unlikely to be an issue on a direct routing, but connecting in EWR is going to be troublesome.) I could see an inexperienced traveler, particularly one traveling with kids, much preferring taking a non-stop option on a "worse airline" over a connecting one on a "better airline."
• Buy-on-board options. Yes, you can get a free tiny snack and can of soda on most legacy airlines, but if you want to buy anything more substantial, the only legacy airline with more food options domestically is United unless you pay for first class (and even in first class it's hit or miss.) On most ULCCs, they'll at least sell you a larger portion of food if you get hungry - it might not be a full meal, but it's at least more variety and a larger portion size than the two tiny cookies or thimble of nuts that the legacy airlines give. Even alcohol sales aren't back on American (or Southwest, though that changes in a few days.)
• Reliability. Looking at the 2020 data, Spirit does better than everyone other than Delta and Hawaiian, and even Frontier's doing better than United, American, and JetBlue. It also bears remembering that delays can cause much larger cascading effects on a connecting itinerary: a two hour delay on a flight sucks, but if that results in missing your connection that delay to your final destination often becomes quite a bit larger than two hours. If you're traveling with a large party it becomes worse, because now either you're waiting for a lot of tickets to become available on a single routing or you're looking at splitting up your traveling group - which isn't always practical, especially for families!

While there's plenty of things to be frustrated about regarding ULCCs, there's also plenty of advantages with them - many of them beyond just "who has the cheapest fare from point A to point B." Even if we put price back into the equation a bit: if I want a wider seat than standard economy, Spirit is pretty much the only airline that offers that for less than a first-class price on the vast majority of domestic routes. Even if I'm just wanting to check a bag, if I don't have status or the requisite credit card I'll almost certainly be paying to check a bag - and the price is only a few bucks more on the ULCCs than the legacies (Southwest excluded, though they're considered a low-cost carrier.) If the price difference is substantial and I'm going to be nickel-and-dimed for my checked bag regardless, why not go with the cheaper option?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Is American an LCC or ULCC airline? Because they've had another incident and we all know unruly passengers only fly ULCC's (per someone here).

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/13/us/american-airlines-flight-diverted-kansas-city/index.html

 

[west point]

Arrival delays and departure delays are very hard to compare. There are many ways an airline needs to or actually wants to game the system.
First arrival delays
1. How the crews are paid. Does crew get paid on scheduled time, actual time or better of scheduled or actual time?
2. If crew has a series of trip during a duty tour, then all flight schedules for that sequence may be unrealistically low to keep the crew under the maximum 8-hour scheduled time domestically. Crew can fly over but has to take a longer off duty than if under 8 hours actual. International is different.
4. Some airlines pay based on mileage so they can make schedule longer to get a better OTP for that flight.
5. Actual flying time is what is counted by the FAA.
Departure delays
1. How tight the turn from an arrival flight can make it impossible. Had a flight that for 2 months could never make an on-time departure even when most of time inbound aircraft arrived at least on time.
2. Shortage of gates so outbound could not get to gate with enough time.
3. Shared gates with another airline then 1 & 2 can apply

 

[caravanman]

It seems that "air rage" is not just confined to aircraft and airports, even this forum topic brings out a somewhat unpleasant need to snipe at each other...

At the end of the day, a cheap no frills service will appeal to some, and top class luxury service appeals to others. We can each decide what is individually important to us, without needing to look down on a "bare bones" airline.

 

[adamj023]

There's ways that ULCCs aren't "worse" - and may be better - beyond price:

• Seating: this one is probably most clearly in favor of non-ULCCs, but if you're stuck in a market with regional jet hell, is a Spirit or Frontier seat much worse than a CRJ-900 economy seat? If you include cost into the equation, someone may be able to upgrade into a seat that rivals (or betters) many of the legacy airlines - particularly Spirit's Big Front Seat.
• Schedules: very market-dependent. Particularly at airports where there's no airline using it as their hub, ULCCs can have more desirable schedules. Looking at non-stops Cleveland to Orlando, on March 1 Spirit has one trip, United has 2 trips, and Frontier has 3 trips. At least for that market, the ULCC has the best non-stop schedule! Sure, you can connect through other airports, but connections aren't always pleasant and add additional points of failure (storm in NYC? Unlikely to be an issue on a direct routing, but connecting in EWR is going to be troublesome.) I could see an inexperienced traveler, particularly one traveling with kids, much preferring taking a non-stop option on a "worse airline" over a connecting one on a "better airline."
• Buy-on-board options. Yes, you can get a free tiny snack and can of soda on most legacy airlines, but if you want to buy anything more substantial, the only legacy airline with more food options domestically is United unless you pay for first class (and even in first class it's hit or miss.) On most ULCCs, they'll at least sell you a larger portion of food if you get hungry - it might not be a full meal, but it's at least more variety and a larger portion size than the two tiny cookies or thimble of nuts that the legacy airlines give. Even alcohol sales aren't back on American (or Southwest, though that changes in a few days.)
• Reliability. Looking at the 2020 data, Spirit does better than everyone other than Delta and Hawaiian, and even Frontier's doing better than United, American, and JetBlue. It also bears remembering that delays can cause much larger cascading effects on a connecting itinerary: a two hour delay on a flight sucks, but if that results in missing your connection that delay to your final destination often becomes quite a bit larger than two hours. If you're traveling with a large party it becomes worse, because now either you're waiting for a lot of tickets to become available on a single routing or you're looking at splitting up your traveling group - which isn't always practical, especially for families!

While there's plenty of things to be frustrated about regarding ULCCs, there's also plenty of advantages with them - many of them beyond just "who has the cheapest fare from point A to point B." Even if we put price back into the equation a bit: if I want a wider seat than standard economy, Spirit is pretty much the only airline that offers that for less than a first-class price on the vast majority of domestic routes. Even if I'm just wanting to check a bag, if I don't have status or the requisite credit card I'll almost certainly be paying to check a bag - and the price is only a few bucks more on the ULCCs than the legacies (Southwest excluded, though they're considered a low-cost carrier.) If the price difference is substantial and I'm going to be nickel-and-dimed for my checked bag regardless, why not go with the cheaper option?

Southwest‘s expansion into Chicago Ohare and I believe today they increased the number of flights out is a big deal because you can do self transfers to a huge number of flights on other airlines as well as have access to Souhwest’s flights.

ULCC’s have higher bag fees and lower weight allowed on them and even charge for carry on bags.

 

[jebr]

Southwest‘s expansion into Chicago Ohare and I believe today they increased the number of flights out is a big deal because you can do self transfers to a huge number of flights on other airlines as well as have access to Souhwest’s flights.

If this is a big deal for you for the reasons you stated, then your travel habits are quite outside the norm of the vast majority of travelers. Self-guaranteed connections with no thru-checked bags across multiple tickets are the realm of those unlucky enough to be stuck at a very small airport with only an airline that has no connecting partners (not the case for the Southwest flights into ORD) or "travel hackers" who are taking a positioning flight to get a particularly good deal - and even then, it's still preferred to take the same airline for the positioning flight (or at least one in the same alliance) to have a slightly better chance of being accommodated if a flight is canceled (and potentially at least be able to through check a bag.)

The vast majority of travelers want a one-ticket itinerary, or at least a one-ticket itinerary for each direction of the journey. Even though leisure travelers are generally price-sensitive, they're not so price-sensitive that they're going to attempt to piece together itineraries across different airlines unless it happens to spit out on an OTA - and even then there'd be some hesitation. Southwest isn't even listed in the vast majority of OTAs, so it seems exceedingly unlikely that any notable portion of travelers would be attempting this. Business travelers definitely won't be piecing together itineraries - they'll take the simple option that fits within whatever rules their company has set up for travel.

 

[adamj023]

If this is a big deal for you for the reasons you stated, then your travel habits are quite outside the norm of the vast majority of travelers. Self-guaranteed connections with no thru-checked bags across multiple tickets are the realm of those unlucky enough to be stuck at a very small airport with only an airline that has no connecting partners (not the case for the Southwest flights into ORD) or "travel hackers" who are taking a positioning flight to get a particularly good deal - and even then, it's still preferred to take the same airline for the positioning flight (or at least one in the same alliance) to have a slightly better chance of being accommodated if a flight is canceled (and potentially at least be able to through check a bag.)

The vast majority of travelers want a one-ticket itinerary, or at least a one-ticket itinerary for each direction of the journey. Even though leisure travelers are generally price-sensitive, they're not so price-sensitive that they're going to attempt to piece together itineraries across different airlines unless it happens to spit out on an OTA - and even then there'd be some hesitation. Southwest isn't even listed in the vast majority of OTAs, so it seems exceedingly unlikely that any notable portion of travelers would be attempting this. Business travelers definitely won't be piecing together itineraries - they'll take the simple option that fits within whatever rules their company has set up for travel.

Southwest is apparently part of GDS systems as of 2020 which I did not know. Apparently agents can book through them but I haven’t seen any online booking options to date other than Southwest directly. Consumers know how to book Southwest tickets already. In the past Southwest focused more on using alternative airports but they seem to have outgrown them and now are adding services to the bigger nearby airports. Airports like Atlanta and Ohare are huge airports with lots of other airlines with flights out on a continual basis. Self transfer customers are more than just a fringe group as more consumers are looking for lower fares as evidenced by the growth of ULCC and LCC airlines. Also due to pandemic, more customers are leisure based than business related as those flights are now way down. At Ohare, Southwest is in Terminal 5 which gives access to all the international flights which means no terminal transfer, just recheck bag and go.

Southwest has been independent of other airlines for awhile but other carriers have also felt that way and wound up partnering with other airlines as well. Southwest is an airline I previously wouldn’t have considered but is making a lot of good moves that actually makes them more competitive. American Airlines still has a ban on alcoholic beverages but Southwest will bring them back starting on Wednesday. I see AA as the legacy in the most decline and Southwest as the airline in the LCC market which is heading in the right direction.

I mistakenly thought Southwest was adding frequency to Ohare this year but it turns out it was Feb 14th of 2021 so the service has been out a full year already. As Ohare finishes up construction we will see if Southwest expands at Ohare further once additional gates are added. I haven’t been following Atlanta or other big hub airports much except for my local airports.

 

[trainman74]

At Ohare, Southwest is in Terminal 5 which gives access to all the international flights which means no terminal transfer, just recheck bag and go.

United and American's international flights out of O'Hare depart from their regular terminals (they only arrive at Terminal 5)... although I can't imagine that many people would fly Southwest and transfer to one of those two for an international flight out of O'Hare, versus just flying the same U.S.-based airline all the way from their point of origin.

 

[Asher]

No I didn’t make up these incidents. They have videos on the internet. Some aviation police even have bodycam videos of these incidents such as a flight that was diverted to New Mexico and perpetrator was taken into custody. The last one I saw was a Frontier flight where someone had to be restrained. The data is public. If a pax is disruptive in flight and has to be restrained, often flights are diverted. I don’t know the specific details on a per airline basis, but it appears to me that I’ve seem more on Spirit and Frontier combined from legitimate incidents that have been reported and have been verified by authorities that have had an incident. However all airlines have had incidents and I do not know the statistics on a per airline basis. There is a huge increase over past incidents across airlines in general.

I am fortunate to never have been on a flight with an incident on board with the airlines I have used. Most I’ve experienced were delays and some rough flying due to weather.

If someone does have the stats on a per airline basis for onboard incidents, I have not seen it yet and I would assume Frontier and Spirit combined would be above the others in the domestic USA. The ULCC model just doesn’t seem like a pleasant way to travel.

You aren’t using You Tube for travel experience are you?