FRA Long Distance Service Study discussion

[John Bredin]

As far as I know, commuter railroads have been counting the post-midnight departure from the city terminal as the last departure of the previous day, rather than the first of that day, because riders use that train that way.

Ditto a corridor train like the last Lincoln Service into St. Louis or the last Wolverine into Pontiac, both leaving Chicago in the afternoon/evening and arriving at the terminal station after midnight.

I think most people consider a departure at a decent hour arriving at the destination in the midnight or even 1am hour to be less-than-ideal but still essentially a same-day trip.

 

[desertflyer]

The "top 10 city pairs including a small community" is very interesting. Passenger numbers are relatively small, but I'd so much rather have the government invest in and subsidize better service on pairs like these via rail instead of much (not all) of the essential air service program.




And just for comparison here are all top city pairs in the southwest region - look at how complimentary so many of the pairs are to the small city pairs. It looks like the route between Denver and Grand Junction could handle a second daily round trip if the infrastructure could handle it.



The fact that LA and Tucson is in the top 10 with a 3x weekly train that has 20% OTP is another indication of some pent up demand there too. Restore daily service and quality of service and that would surly increase.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Can the infrastructure not handle another train between GJCO and Denver? It would probably pick up more riders to Glenwood Springs as well.

Surprised about Santa Barbara - LA since it has other rail options in addition to Amtrak on that stretch. Oh, wait, I guess the Surfliner is Amtrak, somehow I was thinking it was Metrolink.. Never mind, I'll see myself out.

 

[allanorn]

The "top 10 city pairs including a small community" is very interesting. Passenger numbers are relatively small, but I'd so much rather have the government invest in and subsidize better service on pairs like these via rail instead of much (not all) of the essential air service program.

View attachment 31461


And just for comparison here are all top city pairs in the southwest region - look at how complimentary so many of the pairs are to the small city pairs. It looks like the route between Denver and Grand Junction could handle a second daily round trip if the infrastructure could handle it.

View attachment 31462

The fact that LA and Tucson is in the top 10 with a 3x weekly train that has 20% OTP is another indication of some pent up demand there too. Restore daily service and quality of service and that would surly increase.

Strange that LA to Santa Barbara makes that list because it's entirely served by the Surfliner. They could probably do just as well by adding more frequency north of LA; 100 miles isn't really long-distance.

 

[Willbridge]

Can the infrastructure not handle another train between GJCO and Denver? It would probably pick up more riders to Glenwood Springs as well.

Surprised about Santa Barbara - LA since it has other rail options in addition to Amtrak on that stretch. Oh, wait, I guess the Surfliner is Amtrak, somehow I was thinking it was Metrolink.. Never mind, I'll see myself out.

When Amtrak moved the San Francisco Zephyr over to become the California Zephyr, provision was made in the operating agreement for running a second section on the Rio Grande. In the very early days of Amtrak a second section was run between Denver and Chicago on peak days. In the late 1940's there were five daily passenger trains in each direction scheduled through the Moffat Tunnel. On the other hand, I can imagine the whining from the UP if someone thought it could be done today.

When a couple of us worked to develop comments on the 2008-9 study of the Pioneer, we concluded that an alternative that should have been considered was a two-night / one business day train between Seattle/Portland and Denver via either Laramie or Grand Junction. Instead, Amtrak proposed a nine-hour layover eastbound in the night in SLC.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I don't hear a thing about a NYP-PGH-CHI service, call it Bway Ltd or 3-Rivers. The double-ended train sets for NYP-PGH service means no thru cars onto the Captiol Ltd to do it cheaply while not adding any train miles. That was one of the few Performance Improvement Plans that if implemented would run in the Black.

19K passengers in 2019 transferred at Pittsburgh. I'd have to think most of them would be between the Capitol Limited and the Pennsylvanian.

19% of CL passengers transferred to "State supported and NEC services". Now that could also include passengers at Washington. The last time I traveled to Chicago I transferred in DC to TRE on an NER so that counted in this category.

At least now we have numbers to put on restoring the Broadway/Three Rivers and the FRA recognizes it exists.

We also have a ballpark for Chicago-Houston demand (18K transfers in Longview) and Detroit-Northeast demand (16K transfers in Toledo). If we can get rid of the biggest inconvenient transfer points Amtrak should see an increase in ridership (two of these transfer points are to/from BUSES and one of them is during the graveyard shift).

 

[lrh442]

The FRA presentation deck (see link below) is an absolutely fascinating treasure trove of information and is required reading for anyone who wants to be an advocate for passenger rail (as opposed to casual onlookers who content themselves to complaining on the internet).

fralongdistancerailstudy.org/meeting-materials/

They will be whittling down service expansion/restoration possibilities to a short list by Spring 2023 and are soliciting input from the public up to March 17th. NOW is the time to make your voice heard. Scroll to the bottom of this link: FRA Long Distance Rail Study.org/ to send them your input.

Don't waste time complaining about Amtrak management, dirty windows, freight interference, etc. Those topics are not in scope for this study. Read the presentation and then tell them which routes you think are ripe for increased frequencies or new/restored routes.

 

[JWM]

Ok, my take on upgrades and expansion.

1.) Silver Service - add a third train that runs NYP-TPA (or St. Pete) via Orlando
2.) " " - Negotiate with FEC to run the "Star" and "Meteor" on east coast tracks.
Jacksonville to Miami. (Higher speed and smoother rail)
3.) Cardinal - Daily service with "traditional" Dining/Lounge Car
4.) Sunset - Daily service
5.) Texas Eagle - Traditional Dining Service - Chicago San Antonio.
6.) Empire Builder - Additional morning train from Chicago to St. Paul with later afternoon return
7.) Montana - Revive "North Coast Limited via Bute

Comments please.

 

[jis]

Ok, my take on upgrades and expansion.

2.) " " - Negotiate with FEC to run the "Star" and "Meteor" on east coast tracks.
Jacksonville to Miami. (Higher speed and smoother rail)

The negotiation for service along the FECR line would actually be with Brightline and the jointly owned Florida Dispatching Company, rather than with FECR. FECR just handles freight, not passenger. Brightline has first right of refusal on all passenger service on the joint FECR and Brightline infrastructure in Florida.

It should be noted thought that FECR completely misses one of the largest passenger market in Florida, which is Orlando. Orlando market is about twice the size of the Miami market if one is to believe the 2021 ridership number, and of course Orlando and Kissimmee together is even larger. And some of that Miami ridership is actually from Orlando and Tampa (Tampa has about 150% of Miami's ridership overall). You ignore Central Florida at your own peril. I don't think a Meteor or Star running exclusively along the East Coast will fly. And I live on the East Coast.

 

[Larry H.]

My problem has been that far too many "Hub" type cities were left after the large elimination of routes a few years after Amtrak too over. We shouldn't have to pay and spend the time to go way out of our way in order to get some where. St. Louis was one of the largest hubs for a long time, Washington DC, New York, Texas, Oklahoma, Florida, New Orleans, Omaha, and more as an Example. The existing River Runner route used to connect to the City of New Orleans on one end and could have gone on to Omaha Neb in the older times. If you want to go to New Orleans why should you have to pay to go north to Chicago and the extra fares south to Carbondale when in a hour an a half you could get to Carbondale 30 years ago. I think many of the lines were removed at a time when rail was declining but now the interest in many environmentalist and young people is again leaning to rail if it is convenient. Its even worse if your in Denver or other middle western locations, you have to travel for days to get where you could have in far less and cheaper travel time. One other point on that, trains running night and morning schedules would make linking up with them easier and also increase the ridership of many who now have to crawl out of bed in the middle of the night to go anywhere.

 

[GDRRiley]

Strange that LA to Santa Barbara makes that list because it's entirely served by the Surfliner. They could probably do just as well by adding more frequency north of LA; 100 miles isn't really long-distance.

The 2018 railplan long term map lays out hourly service north of Ventura to Santa Barbra. The near term and LOSSAN plans have that reaching bi hourly sometime in the future.
it also has the daily coast starlight

 

[JWM]

The negotiation for service along the FECR line would actually be with Brightline and the jointly owned Florida Dispatching Company, rather than with FECR. FECR just handles freight, not passenger. Brightline has first right of refusal on all passenger service on the joint FECR and Brightline infrastructure in Florida.

It should be noted thought that FECR completely misses one of the largest passenger market in Florida, which is Orlando. Orlando market is about twice the size of the Miami market if one is to believe the 2021 ridership number, and of course Orlando and Kissimmee together is even larger. And some of that Miami ridership is actually from Orlando and Tampa (Tampa has about 150% of Miami's ridership overall). You ignore Central Florida at your own peril. I don't think a Meteor or Star running exclusively along the East Coast will fly. And I live on the East Coast.

Ok, you have to add Dade, Broward, Palm Beach, Martin, St. Lucie, Indian River, Brevard, Volusia, Flager and St. John's Counties population which equals 8, 600,017. Now let's add the other counties on the Jacksonville-Tampa/ St. Petersburg route. Seminole, Orange, Osceola, Polk, Hillsborough and Pinellas that equal 4,501,190. Ok, it may ignore parts of others, but the east coast counties that would be served by an FEC, call it what you want, routing have almost 4.1 million more people. I will grant that Orlando, in today's market, is a huge tourist venue due to the theme parks.

Any use of the FEC, or whatever they care to call it, would entail a discharge or pickup only status south of a stop in Daytona as Brightline certainly is not going to allow Amtrak to take away any local traffic on that protion of the route. Let's see what the study comes up with and my population figures are based on 2023 estimates from Population of Counties in Florida (2023). In any event, this state needs more trains.

 

[Palmland]

You ignore Central Florida at your own peril. I don't think a Meteor or Star running exclusively along the East Coast will fly. And I live on the East Coast.

I would certainly agree with this if there are just two trains. But, add the Silver Palm in the mix and you could make a case for an FEC routed train. Although I suspect a more viable option would be to have Brightline do it with Amtrak connections at a resurrected Jacksonville Union Terminal.

Current Amtrak routing is painfully slow. In the late 50's, when the FEC was operating passenger trains, it took the Florida Special a flat 5 hours to go the 300 miles from Jax to West Palm with 4 stops plus another 5 conditional ones. Amtrak's Silver Meteor takes 7 hours 20 min with 7 stops for the 347 miles.

Some of that difference is the interior of Florida is now built up with many grade crossings and lengthy station stops, especially Orlando. No chance for Amtrak to hit 90 except maybe south of Sebring. If Brighline can do it south of West Palm, it would be a whole lot easier for them north to Jax.

 

[flitcraft]

The FRA presentation deck (see link below) is an absolutely fascinating treasure trove of information and is required reading for anyone who wants to be an advocate for passenger rail (as opposed to casual onlookers who content themselves to complaining on the internet).

fralongdistancerailstudy.org/meeting-materials/

They will be whittling down service expansion/restoration possibilities to a short list by Spring 2023 and are soliciting input from the public up to March 17th. NOW is the time to make your voice heard. Scroll to the bottom of this link: FRA Long Distance Rail Study.org/ to send them your input.

Don't waste time complaining about Amtrak management, dirty windows, freight interference, etc. Those topics are not in scope for this study. Read the presentation and then tell them which routes you think are ripe for increased frequencies or new/restored routes.

Thanks so much for bumping this issue up! I would have forgotten to send in my comments absent your reminder.

 

[Anthony V]

Due to the abandonment of the trackage on the former National Limited's route in Western Ohio and Eastern Indiana shortly after that route's discontinuance, I have an alternative idea. In lieu of restoring the NL to it's former route, I submitted the idea to split a daily Cardinal at Indianapolis and run it on the CSX main from IND to STL with intermediate stops in Greencastle, IN, Terre Haute, IN, and Effingham, IL, and thereafter on the Missouri River Runner route to KCY. This would restore service to West Central Indiana, restore an east-west route through Effingham, (with transfer to the CONO and Carbondale trains) and provide a third frequency (timed to depart at midday from STL and KCY) on the MRR route.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

Ok, my take on upgrades and expansion.

1.) Silver Service - add a third train that runs NYP-TPA (or St. Pete) via Orlando
2.) " " - Negotiate with FEC to run the "Star" and "Meteor" on east coast tracks.
Jacksonville to Miami. (Higher speed and smoother rail)
3.) Cardinal - Daily service with "traditional" Dining/Lounge Car
4.) Sunset - Daily service
5.) Texas Eagle - Traditional Dining Service - Chicago San Antonio.
6.) Empire Builder - Additional morning train from Chicago to St. Paul with later afternoon return
7.) Montana - Revive "North Coast Limited via Bute

Comments please.

I'm with you on the North Coast Limited, except it should go through Helena (State Capitol, colleges and the Bute route needs more work) and it should be scheduled to hit Spokane sometime during the day; if at all possible, whether it should go on to Pasco and Seattle via Yakima or whether that should be a separate service.

 

[allanorn]

The 2018 railplan long term map lays out hourly service north of Ventura to Santa Barbra. The near term and LOSSAN plans have that reaching bi hourly sometime in the future.
it also has the daily coast starlight

Yeah, that's why I was confused about it showing up in the documents. I wouldn't call that long-distance, and the state rail plan will cover it if it is completed as written. Admittedly the 10am LAX departure is convenient to SBA.

 

[zephyr17]

if at all possible, whether it should go on to Pasco and Seattle via Yakima or whether that should be a separate service.

It's more than possible, it's likely. If another train is put on between Spokane and Seattle whether it be a resurrected North Coast Hi or a cross state service regional service, it will almost certainly go via Yakima. Stevens Pass is pretty much saturated (25 minutes to clear the Cascade Tunnel after each train) and BNSF likely would not allow another passenger train to grab a slot on Stevens.

 

[allanorn]

I wouldn't mind seeing the following upgrades:

• All LD train service with dining cars, ideally 14 hours of service/day and available to coach riders as a paid service.
• Sunset Limited and Cardinal every day (5x/week as a stepping stone if needed).
• Restoring the Sunset Limited back to Florida, or an equivalent solution. Doesn't have to be a continuation of the SL, and it may be operationally preferable not to have it that way. In that case where would the split/transfer happen: SAS or NOL?
• Through-sleepers on the Pennsylvanian to the Capitol Limited, or an equivalent solution.
• Some sort of Pioneer and Desert Wind service. I don't know if we need to make that one train, and I don't think we need to go back to the mid-90s CZ "Voltron" train either. Brightline's HSR to Vegas could significantly impact a possible Desert Wind LD service.
• A "Front Range" service like ELP-DEN, though I'm not sure what that market or service would look like.
• Some sort of Chicago - Florida overnight service, likely going through Nashville and Atlanta.
• Some sort of overnight service running to/from Houston going north (Chicago? Denver?). Having the Texas Central completed might make this more complicated.
• Could get behind a NYP-MIA sleeper service running down the FEC line if a third named train plies the route.
• Could also get behind an East Coast to STL/KCY run that goes through Ohio and bypasses CHI, if the numbers work out.

 

[west point]

The making of the Eagle a daily CHI <> LAX has much merit. Then that along with the Sunset daily SAS <> NOL.
What would be icing on the cake is that the ATL and north train go by way of Meridian - FTW. A decent connection time to / From Eagle at FTW would work great. The SAS <> NOL might even be extended to MEI to connect with either Crescent or the FTW <> ATL train.

 

[Steve's Wanderlust]

Ok, my take on upgrades and expansion.

1.) Silver Service - add a third train that runs NYP-TPA (or St. Pete) via Orlando
2.) " " - Negotiate with FEC to run the "Star" and "Meteor" on east coast tracks.
Jacksonville to Miami. (Higher speed and smoother rail)
3.) Cardinal - Daily service with "traditional" Dining/Lounge Car
4.) Sunset - Daily service
5.) Texas Eagle - Traditional Dining Service - Chicago San Antonio.
6.) Empire Builder - Additional morning train from Chicago to St. Paul with later afternoon return
7.) Montana - Revive "North Coast Limited via Bute

Comments please.

Agree with point 6.

Being based east of St. Paul I'd rather have the second train to Chicago be a late afternoon departure. An additional late morning train would mitigate eastbound EB delays (though without connections via Chicago on present schedules), but a late afternoon eastbound would allow me to start trips at the end of my first shift workday.

 

[jis]

The reason why everyone has lost confidence in the Amtrak Board doing competent Long Distance network planning and execution is starkly visible in this 2018 Board Meeting minutes that has been obtained by Trains in the Valley folks. This was still under Anderson, but Coscia was clearly the Chair and had no problem with the stated position, and Gardner was a key player. Let me draw your attention to the last couple of sentences of the section titled "State Supported Strategy Review":

National Railroad Passenger Corporation, Board of Directors, Minutes of Meeting, March 22, 2018

And still Coscia is reappointed Chair. This is the reason that I believe we suffer from the misfortune of having even the most supportive of Amtrak POTUS and his admittedly supportive of Amtrak advisors to fall short at dealing with Amtrak, especially the long distance aspects of it, beyond throwing gobs of money at it. This is the reason Congress forced the issue by handing LD planning to FRA and took it away from Amtrak Board, partly thanks to RPA pushing for such.

 

[jis]

Cardinal has been tri-weekly since Reagan/Lewis/Stockman. It will always be that way, like the Sunset. If the Senate flips by so much as one vote, Manchin becomes less powerful.

I don't hear a thing about a NYP-PGH-CHI service, call it Bway Ltd or 3-Rivers. The double-ended train sets for NYP-PGH service means no thru cars onto the Captiol Ltd to do it cheaply while not adding any train miles. That was one of the few Performance Improvement Plans that if implemented would run in the Black.

I suppose you have already entered your comment in the FRA LD Committee docket pointing this out? I have.

I would like to encourage everyone to please go to:

https://fralongdistancerailstudy.org/
And submit your comments. That is a more productive activity than venting here at AU or any of the various other railfan groups and web sites.

 

[user 14106]

The reason why everyone has lost confidence in the Amtrak Board doing competent Long Distance network planning and execution is starkly visible in this 2018 Board Meeting minutes that has been obtained by Trains in the Valley folks. This was still under Anderson, but Coscia was clearly the Chair and had no problem with the stated position, and Gardner was a key player. Let me draw your attention to the last couple of sentences of the section titled "State Supported Strategy Review":

I remember a hearing with Anderson back around that time where he was talking about this. Unlike some I don't think their intention was to discontinue or dismantle the entire network of all 15 long distance routes 100% though I think as hinted the vision was altering portions of the network to mostly shorter daytime running segments and retaining a couple of the more scenic long distance trains intact as more of a premium experiential type tourist trains possibly influenced by services like the Canadian (they basically indicated the Coast Starlight, California Zephyr, and Empire Builder as the services they would keep as is as tourist trains) - a network setup I think most of us would have opposed pretty strongly. I think as part of it they would have argued for a reduction in the 750 mile rule to allow for Amtrak to self fund longer daytime running services in areas where state support would have been more difficult. This is kind of why I don't really get on board with some of the VIA rail praise and comparisons as I don't think that's really the direction most of us would want Amtrak to go and as great as I'm sure the food and amenities are the Canadian and Ocean aren't really models for usable transportation that should be pointed to. Thankfully with a lot of advocacy Congress rejected this vision pretty soundly.

 

[jis]

Clearly their first salvo was the South West Chief. My guess is that the EB and CZ would have been safe. The rest, who knows? Fortunately we don't need to spend time speculating on that now since it ain't happening.