Frailey: "Amtrak has a Chicago problem"

[Trogdor]

It is unfortunate that you can't get anywhere without going through Chicago. A hub in St. Louis or further south would surely take the pressure off.

Chicago has a lot of problems. It has long been known for having one of the highest if not the highest crime rates in the nation (US).

Citation please.

In 2012, Chicago was 13th in homicides (on a per-capita basis), below St. Louis (one of your suggested hubs). Chicago was 16th on a per capita basis in robberies (below St. Louis and Milwaukee, two cities on your list).

Nonetheless, I fail to see what this has to do with Amtrak.

It is also extremely windy, and this leads to poor road conditions and freezing.

It can be windy. It's not the windiest city out there. Its nickname as the "Windy City" has nothing to do with any weather phenomenon.

People have also died there.

I'm trying to think of a response to this that isn't snarky, but I really can't. I mean...WTF?

In terms of trains and tracks, I agree that a hub in St. Louis is part of the solution. Currently as you know all traffic east of Chicago has to go there first, and all traffic west of Chicago also goes there. While this might seem balanced on paper, it is not. There are other cities that deserve attention, including St. Louis (aka the 'golden' arches), Milwaukee, and Indianapolis.

Please explain to me how a hub in Milwaukee is supposed to work. Build a railroad bridge across Lake Michigan?

An additional option would be Nashville.

If the network were more evenly distributed we could avoid a lot of these problems and 'spread the wealth' so to speak.

But will they let that happen? No. No, they won't.

Who is the "they" that is supposed to "let" things happen?

I also don't really understand what "spread the wealth" is supposed to mean. Amtrak has four western long-distance trains out of Chicago. How do you spread that amongst different hubs without, basically, destroying the utility of the system?

I've long accepted that there will not be any new long-distance trains. It's a political will problem as much as it is an Amtrak problem. Therefore, to maximize potential, it's best that they flow through common hubs (it doesn't help if the Empire Builder ends in Milwaukee but the Cardinal somehow originates in Nashville). I'm sure that the staff that are currently employed could be a ton more effective than they are, but nonetheless, you're not going to suddenly turn Indianapolis (with poor track leading to it in pretty much all directions) or Nashville (which hasn't seen a passenger train in decades) into new hubs just to spite some bad workers.

Chicago is the rail hub because that's how the growth happened historically, and, as the US's third-largest city (and one that has always seen rail as a relevant transportation mode), that's where your best hope for O&D traffic is for any place west of Washington, DC, until west of the Rockies (with the possible exception of Houston, which is really too far south to serve as an LD train hub anyway). You can't throw that away just because you have some bad employees working there.

 

[montana mike]

Perhaps I missed one, but not a single LD train left CHI on time over the past several days. Yes, it's cold, but it is Chicago and it is winter.

 

[June the Coach Rider]

Perhaps I missed one, but not a single LD train left CHI on time over the past several days. Yes, it's cold, but it is Chicago and it is winter.

Not so sure it has anything to do with Chicago per-say, but how late the trains were when they arrived in Chicago. Each train has to be serviced, stocked, filled and set for departure. Also, staff need to have a certain amount of rest between trips, if the weather is bad and they have worked to their limit, there is a number of hours that the train will be late because of these things.

 

[rrdude]

Perhaps I missed one, but not a single LD train left CHI on time over the past several days. Yes, it's cold, but it is Chicago and it is winter.

Not so sure it has anything to do with Chicago per-say, but how late the trains were when they arrived in Chicago. Each train has to be serviced, stocked, filled and set for departure. Also, staff need to have a certain amount of rest between trips, if the weather is bad and they have worked to their limit, there is a number of hours that the train will be late because of these things.

I'm almost 100% sure it has nothing to do with staffing the train with OBS personnel. Chicago crew base has a large number of regular OBS to call on, and a number of them don't hold regular routes, they work "The Board" (Extra Board)

If a train is very, very, very, late and the equipment is usually dedicated to that train, they "yes" there could (and is) often be a delay in "turning" that train. (coach cleaners, any mech defects, etc.) but the fact that so few trains have left Chicago on time is a huge red flag that something is institutionally wrong in The Windy.

As I posted on the Trains NewsWire site, I think Amtrak's VP of ops needs to "set up temporary shop" at the 14 street yards, and do a great deal of "Management by walking around........."

 

[Paul CHI]

Though Chicago is known for winter weather, this winter has been much more severe than average. Average low/high during the coldest days of January is 18/29F. We've had probably a month's worth of days when the high < 18. We also have had double our usual snow fall. So there is some validity to that excuse. As an example, the Metra commuter system's performance this winter has also been abysmal. Combine unusual weather with inadequate capital expenditure and you get what we now have: unreliability. I'm not saying that there aren't problems with the employees as well: know nothing about that.

 

[PaulM]

Not so sure it has anything to do with Chicago per-say, but how late the trains were when they arrived in Chicago. Each train has to be serviced, stocked, filled and set for departure. Also, staff need to have a certain amount of rest between trips, if the weather is bad and they have worked to their limit, there is a number of hours that the train will be late because of these things.

I'm almost 100% sure it has nothing to do with staffing the train with OBS personnel. Chicago crew base has a large number of regular OBS to call on, and a number of them don't hold regular routes, they work "The Board" (Extra Board)

If a train is very, very, very, late and the equipment is usually dedicated to that train, they "yes" there could (and is) often be a delay in "turning" that train. (coach cleaners, any mech defects, etc.) but the fact that so few trains have left Chicago on time is a huge red flag that something is institutionally wrong in The Windy.

I'll buy OBS, but you haven't sold me on T&E and equipment? The scheduled turn around time for the CZ, SWC, and EB are 23:10, 23:45, and 22:20 respectively. Now just exactly how long does it take to turn a train? And shouldn't there be a few spare cars in the low travel season in case one needs a little too much attention?

Also, how long of a rest is required by T&E personnel. Even if the SWC is 8 hours late, the layover is still more than 15 hours. And I thought T&E had to be "qualified" on the route. So it's not likely that a conductor is scheduled to come in on the LSL and go out on the EB. Recently it was announced that the SWC would be delayed leaving because of "crew rest". Sounded phoney to me. The hours just didn't add up.

The LSL and CL aren't quite as lucky at 11:45 and 9:55. If the CNO and TE interline, then they could be in trouble at 6:13 CNO to TE and 4:45 TE to CNO.

 

[John Bobinyec]

Okay, where was I? In A traveling man’s further adventures, I wrote that I flew from Washington, D.C., to Chicago to ride the Pullman Rail Journey train, attached once a week or so to the rear of Amtrak’s City of New Orleans.

The train is together, he reports. Then comes word that a brake valve is stuck during the brake test. A few minutes pass and then David shuts off his phone, turns to us, and says: The stuck value is on our car; we’re being left behind again.

These are quotes from the original article. Mr. Frailey complains about the stuck brake valve and then blames Amtrak for it. I take exception to that. Private cars which are tacked onto the end of an Amtrak train must meet operating standards and must be ready to go. When the valve failed during the brake test, there were only two options which could be taken. The first is to cut the brakes out on that car. This is only possible if there are cars with operational brakes on both ends of the car. This was not the case because the car was tacked onto the end of the train. The other option is to leave the car behind.

Amtrak doesn't maintain the private car, and so bears no responsibility for the malfunctioning brake valve.

jb

 

[jis]

Yeah, as I mentioned before, it took a disruption of Fred's luxury ride for the long standing problems of Chicago to catch his attention. Better later than never I guess, even if it takes a disruption of a luxury ride on cars that are not Amtrak's developing a defect.

 

[PerRock]

It is also extremely windy, and this leads to poor road conditions and freezing.

It can be windy. It's not the windiest city out there. Its nickname as the "Windy City" has nothing to do with any weather phenomenon.

That's not necessarily true. There isn't really one true history of the name "Windy City". Different historians cite different sources. Some are say it's from Chicagoian's love to talk about events in the city. Others say it's because of the weather. There are a few other stories but none are considered to be the real reason. The first known printed use of the term comes from an 1858 Tribune article.

peter

 

[Ryan]

I'll buy OBS, but you haven't sold me on T&E and equipment? The scheduled turn around time for the CZ, SWC, and EB are 23:10, 23:45, and 22:20 respectively. Now just exactly how long does it take to turn a train? And shouldn't there be a few spare cars in the low travel season in case one needs a little too much attention?

There's a baked in assumption there that one train turns as the next with equipment staying on the same route. I'm not sure that's always the case.

Also, how long of a rest is required by T&E personnel. Even if the SWC is 8 hours late, the layover is still more than 15 hours. And I thought T&E had to be "qualified" on the route. So it's not likely that a conductor is scheduled to come in on the LSL and go out on the EB. Recently it was announced that the SWC would be delayed leaving because of "crew rest". Sounded phoney to me. The hours just didn't add up.

Since Chicago is probably the home terminal for the T&E guys, the rest thing probably isn't a factor, as they're not scheduled to go out on the next train.

 

[Anderson]

Also, the SWC, EB, and CZ all come in around the same general time and leave within about 1:15 of one another. Even if one turns as the other, it shouldn't heavily affect things. The only way you'd get a major knock-on was if the Chief or Zephyr was "turning" as the Cap or vice-versa.

Edit: Actually worth noting, even when the Cap was more or less on time, there have been times when something delayed the diner getting added to the train. That tended to make a royal mess of the OBS situation, and I've seen it lead to coach folks getting locked out of dinner. Not that there weren't possible crew issues at work there, but I've seen things like that happen.

 

[oldtimer]

Okay, where was I? In A traveling man’s further adventures, I wrote that I flew from Washington, D.C., to Chicago to ride the Pullman Rail Journey train, attached once a week or so to the rear of Amtrak’s City of New Orleans.

The train is together, he reports. Then comes word that a brake valve is stuck during the brake test. A few minutes pass and then David shuts off his phone, turns to us, and says: The stuck value is on our car; we’re being left behind again.

These are quotes from the original article. Mr. Frailey complains about the stuck brake valve and then blames Amtrak for it. I take exception to that. Private cars which are tacked onto the end of an Amtrak train must meet operating standards and must be ready to go. When the valve failed during the brake test, there were only two options which could be taken. The first is to cut the brakes out on that car. This is only possible if there are cars with operational brakes on both ends of the car. This was not the case because the car was tacked onto the end of the train. The other option is to leave the car behind.

Amtrak doesn't maintain the private car, and so bears no responsibility for the malfunctioning brake valve.

jb

According to FRA regulations any train cannot depart an initial terminal with any of the brakes inoperable.

I'll buy OBS, but you haven't sold me on T&E and equipment? The scheduled turn around time for the CZ, SWC, and EB are 23:10, 23:45, and 22:20 respectively. Now just exactly how long does it take to turn a train? And shouldn't there be a few spare cars in the low travel season in case one needs a little too much attention?

There's a baked in assumption there that one train turns as the next with equipment staying on the same route. I'm not sure that's always the case.

Also, how long of a rest is required by T&E personnel. Even if the SWC is 8 hours late, the layover is still more than 15 hours. And I thought T&E had to be "qualified" on the route. So it's not likely that a conductor is scheduled to come in on the LSL and go out on the EB. Recently it was announced that the SWC would be delayed leaving because of "crew rest". Sounded phoney to me. The hours just didn't add up.

Since Chicago is probably the home terminal for the T&E guys, the rest thing probably isn't a factor, as they're not scheduled to go out on the next train.

Not all trains that depart from Chicago have Chicago T&E crews, and also their rest time does not begin with the train arrival time, they have paperwork to do, conductors make a remittance and transportation to the hotel must be obtained and the trip to the hotel completed before the FRA will consider a rest period to start.

 

[oldtimer]

Here is an insight into Chicago Amtrak from many years ago. Excerpt here, but click through and read the whole thing, and then the rest of his stories. Wildly entertaining stuff. (warning: strong language)

http://railroaddave.com/slug/

What does this mean? It means that if one ran across a new yardmaster (trainmaster, etc.) that wouldn't, couldn't or didn't know how to play the game, then you had an opportunity to educate said individual. If you came to realize that the fellow giving you your work wasn't flexible then you merely nodded, took whatever work he deemed it appropriate to lay on you, gathered up your crew and went out the door. And proceeded to work safely.

'Work safely' is a euphemism for throwing out the anchor, which might be described as: working at a greatly reduced speed. After a few hours the yardmaster begins to realize: he has a crew out there, but they don't seem to be getting anything done? And he might then call the trainmaster, and the trainmaster might come on down and walk right with you as you go about your railroad duties. He would see immediately, or if not immediately, sooner or later, that although your feet are moving, the work isn't getting accomplished.

Can he do anything about it? No. Of course not, because you are 'working safely'.

Railroaders are blessed (and always have been) by more and various rules than you might shake a stick at, as the saying goes. This is because railroading is a very dangerous business - heavy machinery, and all that - and folks have always been getting injured and killed doing it, and each time that happened the powers that be added another rule to cover the sad situation that caused injury or loss of life. This has been going on for so long that nowadays that rule book is an inch and a half thick in very small print, and we carry it in our pockets or grips at all times.

A few examples should suffice. The very first rule is, work safely. If you are ever hurt at work you are in immediate violation of rule number one. As mentioned, there is a rule for everything. All a conductor needs to know is the rules, and the rest is easy. Say you tie onto a cut of cars and give the engineer a 'go ahead', the signal to start pulling on them. Wait a second or two, then swing down (stop) the move. If asked what the problem might be, the answer is; the cars seem to be pulling a little hard - time to inspect the track. And inspect the equipment, it could be a car with a sticking brake? Maybe one of the cars has fallen off the rail? Pulling a car that's 'on the ground' or 'in the mud' can ruin miles of perfectly good track, and adjoining tracks and equipment as well. It has happened before, more than once, and that's why there is a rule in the book that says: if the cars are pulling hard, check everything. The engineer knows how to play this game, too. He might advise, 'the air isn't coming up'. Or it might be he that says the cars are pulling hard. Teamwork.

This can go on and on, (in a hundred different forms) and will, for days if necessary, until things change and everyone knows how to play the game.

I suspect that the game is still being played, and until both sides learn how to get along and work productively together, not much will change.

I wish more people would read railroader dave.com's blog. This is very true today. The lack of proper engines to provide switching chores often causes the crews to "follow the book" as it does make the job more difficult and if it is to be done with a road engine it will take more time. If the trains are not assembled until 2 hours before the yard departure time it makes it difficult to take care of the defects and cleaning.

Another point to consider is spelled out excellently on Trainorders, the post is in yesterdays listing time dated 18:42 it is titled The Amtrak Material Control Problem. http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3321635 The original author is very truthful and I hope that he does not still work for Amtrak.

Another problem that I have heard constantly is that when the OBS crew shows up in the yard that the yard employees are sitting. The reason for this is that the mechanical (this includes cleaning) employees are under FRA rules that does not allow them to work without "Blue Signal Protection". This is removed as the bags and engine are tied on, of course the yard move is delayed due to the crews working safe. If an employee violates the Blue Signal rules they and the company can be fined and of course the company will impose discipline on the employee after a "fair and impartial" investigation. The OBS employees are not covered by this rule so they work while the mechanical employees are required to either clear the train or sit down on it.

 

[henryj]

Piss poor management.

 

[PaulM]

I'll buy OBS, but you haven't sold me on T&E and equipment? The scheduled turn around time for the CZ, SWC, and EB are 23:10, 23:45, and 22:20 respectively. Now just exactly how long does it take to turn a train? And shouldn't there be a few spare cars in the low travel season in case one needs a little too much attention?

There's a baked in assumption there that one train turns as the next with equipment staying on the same route. I'm not sure that's always the case.

Right (except possibly for the LSL). But that would be a worst case scenario. Not knowing the details, I can't say for sure. But in general, wouldn't the flexibility of being able to grab whatever set or individual cars are available make it easier?

Also, how long of a rest is required by T&E personnel. Even if the SWC is 8 hours late, the layover is still more than 15 hours. And I thought T&E had to be "qualified" on the route. So it's not likely that a conductor is scheduled to come in on the LSL and go out on the EB

Not all trains that depart from Chicago have Chicago T&E crews, and also their rest time does not begin with the train arrival time, they have paperwork to do, conductors make a remittance and transportation to the hotel must be obtained and the trip to the hotel completed before the FRA will consider a rest period to start.

But still, given the time that appears to be available, how long does it take? Paperwork? 1, 2, 3 hours? Hopefully, the remittance office is on the pathway between the arrival track and transportation departure point. Obtain transportation? If transportation time really were an issue, hopefully, it would have been already obtained. If not, take a cab. Recently, it took me about 10 minutes to get from CUS to the mis-connect hotel in rush hour with a lot of snow on the ground.

 

[AlanB]

Also, how long of a rest is required by T&E personnel. Even if the SWC is 8 hours late, the layover is still more than 15 hours. And I thought T&E had to be "qualified" on the route. So it's not likely that a conductor is scheduled to come in on the LSL and go out on the EB

Not all trains that depart from Chicago have Chicago T&E crews, and also their rest time does not begin with the train arrival time, they have paperwork to do, conductors make a remittance and transportation to the hotel must be obtained and the trip to the hotel completed before the FRA will consider a rest period to start.

But still, given the time that appears to be available, how long does it take? Paperwork? 1, 2, 3 hours? Hopefully, the remittance office is on the pathway between the arrival track and transportation departure point. Obtain transportation? If transportation time really were an issue, hopefully, it would have been already obtained. If not, take a cab. Recently, it took me about 10 minutes to get from CUS to the mis-connect hotel in rush hour with a lot of snow on the ground.

I'm not sure how things work going west, as the timings are very different there.

But for the LSL the T&E crew that brought the train in that morning is the same crew that takes it back out later that night. Therefore a late arriving LSL will guarantee a late departing LSL while the crew gets its rest.

 

[PaulM]

I'm not sure how things work going west, as the timings are very different there.
But for the LSL the T&E crew that brought the train in that morning is the same crew that takes it back out later that night. Therefore a late arriving LSL will guarantee a late departing LSL while the crew gets its rest.

Right. I hope I mentioned the LSL as an exception. What I did speculate was the the LSL crew wouldn't be scheduled to go out on the SWC because they wouldn't likely be qualified on it.

 

[Nathanael]

Some very interesting stories about Chicago Maintenance in this thread at trainorders:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3320162

Yeah -- just the first page of that had an astounding number of my-eyes-bugged-out stories. Something wrong there.

Regarding this:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3321635

Frankly "Material Control" *is part of Chicago's 14th St. yard operations*. Their orders for materials do not come from an office in DC. If they are routinely out of stock for standard parts for any of their standard types of cars *it is a local problem at Chicago and they need to fix it*.

(I say standard types of cars: Chicago should have a large supply of parts for P42s, Superliner I coach, coach-bag, sleeper, lounge, diner, Superliner 2 coach, lounge, sleeper, diner, trans-dorm, Viewliner sleeper, Horizon coach, food service, Amfleet II coach, cafe. I don't expect them to have Heritage car parts, and given the tiny number of Amfleet Is used, I don't really expect Chicago to have those parts either. But Chicago is the primary "running maintenance" location for most of the Superliners and Horizons, and it's absurd for it to not have spare parts. I do not for one second believe that the lack of spare parts is the fault of DC -- this is obviously a Chicago problem.)

 

[Nathanaelb]

Another problem that I have heard constantly is that when the OBS crew shows up in the yard that the yard employees are sitting. The reason for this is that the mechanical (this includes cleaning) employees are under FRA rules that does not allow them to work without "Blue Signal Protection". This is removed as the bags and engine are tied on, of course the yard move is delayed due to the crews working safe. If an employee violates the Blue Signal rules they and the company can be fined and of course the company will impose discipline on the employee after a "fair and impartial" investigation. The OBS employees are not covered by this rule so they work while the mechanical employees are required to either clear the train or sit down on it.

This doesn't sound like an excuse to me.
By the time OBS shows up, the train should have been assembled -- *after* all the repairs have been done -- and the mechanical employees should be moving on to the next train. What the hell is going on with the yard procedures in Chicago?

 

[montana mike]

I see the yard still can't get Empire Builders out on time this week either. Today's Empire Builder is going to be at least 3 hours and 45 minutes late--arrrrgh.

:-(

 

[Golden grrl]

I see the yard still can't get Empire Builders out on time this week either. Today's Empire Builder is going to be at least 3 hours and 45 minutes late--arrrrgh.

:-(

It was not just EB today 2 Hiawathas, a Wolverine also late since I got here to CHI this afternoon on aslightly late SWC. It is now9:35 and we have just been told our #30 to WAS will not be ready until ten or later. We are also told sandwiches have been ordered for us. No reason offered for the delay.note: the SWC delay not Amtraks fault. A freight just ahead of us hit someone at a crossing. That was on 4(14).

 

[Golden grrl]

CapLimited still not to CUS at twenty to 11 pm - a woman identifying herself as station manager has just told us that the problem on the train has been fixed and is now being tested. Train 30 should arrive around 11 to 11:30 so we will be leaving at least 5 hours late from its origin. Will be interesting to see how much more time we lose on the way.