Free Public Transit?

[Tlcooper44]

edit: Video not showing up, so Im pasting link below:
Here


A nice watch.
I've always been very against free public transit largely for one simple reason: if you have money to make your transit free, you have money to make it better. Improved transit is a better strategy for higher ridership.

But I'm curious to hear other people's takes.

 

[cirdan]

I've always been very against free public transit largely for one simple reason: if you have money to make your transit free, you have money to make it better. Improved transit is a better strategy for higher ridership.

I agree with this. Also, at least within cities anyway, transit is already far far cheaper than driving. I do not think that costs are the factor that are keeping people away from transit. If there are special groups who maybe do have problems affording it, then that should be addressed on that level rather than with blanket solutions that are more likely to backfire.

Transit in many cities has an image problem, and this image problem is precisely that middle income middle class people do not use transit. If you want transit to be perceived as being for everybody you have to make everybody feel comfortable there. And this may mean tailoring to their needs. Middle income middle class people don't mind paying for things but do like to get something back for their money. This means making transit clean, comfortable, safe, reliable, welcoming, serving the right routes etc, all factors that will also make others, including the poor, feel welcome there as well.

Of course the poor and homeless etc should be welcome on transit too, but if you tailor it only for them you risk ending up with nobody else using it besides.

 

[como]

You both make excellent points. I live in a smaller city that made bus service free during Covid and has not charged fares since then. In response to cirdan's post the local bus system has been in a cutback mode for the last 15 years. Route frequencies are between 45 minutes and two hours. No buses run after 6 p.m. and there is no service on Saturday's. Routes have been cut back, meaning that it is difficult for almost anyone to use the bus to go to work for the largest employers in the city, go out and night, go to work or church on Sunday, etc. There have been multiple studies showing that improving service by increasing frequencies, routes, and hours/days of service would increase the number of riders and serve the needs of those without cars. However, the city seems convinced that "only a few people need the bus and we can serve them in other ways (paratransit, a reservation-based service, etc.)."

 

[Trollopian]

Economist here. Nothing is "free," the only question really is "who pays."

Taking transit, rather than driving, creates tremendous social benefits ("externalities" in our jargon) by reducing pollution and congestion. Designed and run well, transit allows us to preserve our dense cities and close-in suburbs for trees and buildings and pedestrians rather than ribbons of asphalt. So there's a strong case for subsidizing transit, especially when auto travel benefits from enormous public subsidies, overt or hidden.

But not free. That's wasteful.

I've traveled quite a bit around Europe and taken transit in many cities; are any systems free to residents (that is, not us visitors; I certainly expect to pay)? Not so far as I know. Transit in Europe is generally clean and efficient and safe. And my impression is that it's ridden by people of all social and economic classes, well, except the very top. Whereas here in the U.S. a typical attitude (not mine, but typical) is that transit is a good thing if it gets grubby people off the roads so I can have a faster smoother commute in my nice comfortable car.

I might add, though, that fare evasion on Washington DC buses is so widespread that there's a serious debate about just giving up and making them free. That's discouraging. But obviously the logistics of fare collection on buses and on rail transit are very different. NYC has those "cages," DC has installed higher barriers in most rail stations to deter gate-jumpers. (A behavior that had a remarkably broad socioeconomic profile. But not me. I'm 5'0".)

 

[Widfara]

Charlottesville, Virginia buses are free to the rider because of some sort of grant from the state. My round-trip experience was less than satisfactory due to unruly passengers (going: 2 men, one woman arguing loudly, with a 4th person joining in by phone, on speaker. Uncomfortable. Returning, man and woman arguing about something. Loudly. They were a couple at the bus stop, but by the time the bus got there, she had thrown all of the groceries into the street.) Both rides had panhandlers onboard who were very persistent.
The schedule seemed adequate for mid-day, and I saw a lot of buses moving about around downtown. But, I wished I didn't have to ride.

 

[cirdan]

I've traveled quite a bit around Europe and taken transit in many cities; are any systems free to residents (that is, not us visitors; I certainly expect to pay)? Not so far as I know. Transit in Europe is generally clean and efficient and safe. And my impression is that it's ridden by people of all social and economic classes, well, except the very top. Whereas here in the U.S. a typical attitude (not mine, but typical) is that transit is a good thing if it gets grubby people off the roads so I can have a faster smoother commute in my nice comfortable car.

I understand Luxemburg for example has free city transit.

They still have huge congestion problems, which i guess sort of proves that cost is not the issue.

Several cities may offer free transit on certain days, such as weekends of pre Christmas shopping, when they expect congestion to be very high. In some cases major stores will sponsor this making it is cost neutral for the taxpayer while creating goodwill among passengers. But such schemes rely on the benevolence of individual corporations who might decide to cut back if they are having a hard year.

 

[alanh]

Note that city streets are usually supported through general taxation, not the gas tax. That goes to state and federal highways.

 

[Qapla]

Tampa has a free transit line. It has a limited service area but is well used and generally quite nice to ride

http://www.tecolinestreetcar.org/

This video gives a fairly good coverage of the ride

 

[MARC Rider]

SEPTA is free to seniors. You don't even have to be a local, but you do have to go the SEPTA HQ to get the card.

When I visited Tampa circa 2010, the TECO streetcar was not free, but I bought a pass that wasn't that expensive.

 

[Literalman]

When I lived in Alexandria, Va., the local bus system was vastly improved with more frequent service and, with a grant from the city, became free to ride. In some places, I think that free transit would attract people who are not on board to go somewhere. However, I don't recall seeing any shady characters. I would have cheerfully continued to pay my senior half fare, but I heard that so few people had been riding the bus that the cost of fare collection outweighed the revenue. However, I had been not riding Alexandria Transit ("Dash") much not because of the cost but because service was skimpy, with some routes running once an hour. If a transfer was involved, it was often faster to walk (and, as now, I was living car free). But once we had service every 15 or 20 minutes on some routes, I rode a lot more. The free service helped in another way. If I added value to my Smartrip card, it was supposed to show up within a certain time, but it never did appear the same day, so I always went to a Metro station and used a fare machine, which always added value to the card immediately. However, I lived miles from the nearest Metro station, so it was helpful to have free travel on Dash and also not have to pay for a trip just to reach a fare machine, though with planning I usually incorporated that travel into other trips.

 

[Tlcooper44]

especially when auto travel benefits from enormous public subsidies, overt or hidden.

This is a hard pill to swallow for many Americans. There is an astonishing lack of understanding over just how much money our vast system of auto related infrastructure costs.

I've traveled quite a bit around Europe and taken transit in many cities; are any systems free to residents (that is, not us visitors; I certainly expect to pay)? Not so far as I know.

The video I pasted, that sparked this thread, is about Tallinn - it’s well worth the watch.

They rather recently made transit free for residents, costing city taxpayers roughly €40 per year.

The video also lists several other cities worldwide that have free transit, and basically shows ridership decline because of its implementation.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Note that city streets are usually supported through general taxation, not the gas tax. That goes to state and federal highways.

This right here is key.
Cities supporting true streets, with vibrant density is very different from cities supporting “streets” that are really just stroads. Interstates get taken care of by the feds, but those expensive large stroads don’t.

 

[Qapla]

When I visited Tampa circa 2010, the TECO streetcar was not free, but I bought a pass that wasn't that expensive

The video also lists several other cities worldwide that have free transit, and basically shows ridership decline because of its implementation.

Service has been free to riders since 2018, thanks to consistent grant funding from the Florida Department of Transportation — about $700,000 each year. Since then, ridership has exploded from just over 300,000 riders to more than 1.3 million.

SEPTA is free to seniors. You don't even have to be a local, but you do have to go the SEPTA HQ to get the card.

When I was planning a trip that would have included SEPTA ... since I live in Florida, I checked, and I could apply for the senior card online and they would mail it to me. That was before COVID ... maybe things have changed since then.

 

[joelkfla]

SEPTA is free to seniors. You don't even have to be a local, but you do have to go the SEPTA HQ to get the card.

That's actually true for all public transit in PA. It's subsidized by the commonwealth,

The only rub is that all of them accept each other's pass, but SEPTA apparently requires seniors to get a SEPTA pass. I assume it's because of their fare gates.

When I was planning a trip that would have included SEPTA ... since I live in Florida, I checked, and I could apply for the senior card online and they would mail it to me. That was before COVID ... maybe things have changed since then.

There's nothing on the website about applying online. In fact, it explicitly states that seniors from out of state must obtain one "upon arrival." And appointments are required. But there are some neat little historical exhibits at headquarters where you get the pass. They even had a PCC in there, but that might have been just while PCC operations were suspended.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

That's actually true for all public transit in PA. It's subsidized by the commonwealth,

The only rub is that all of them accept each other's pass, but SEPTA apparently requires seniors to get a SEPTA pass. I assume it's because of their fare gates.


There's nothing on the website about applying online. In fact, it explicitly states that seniors from out of state must obtain one "upon arrival." And appointments are required. But there are some neat little historical exhibits at headquarters where you get the pass. They even had a PCC in there, but that might have been just while PCC operations were suspended.

The PCC is still there.

 

[PaTrainFan]

That's actually true for all public transit in PA. It's subsidized by the commonwealth,

The only rub is that all of them accept each other's pass, but SEPTA apparently requires seniors to get a SEPTA pass. I assume it's because of their fare gates.


There's nothing on the website about applying online. In fact, it explicitly states that seniors from out of state must obtain one "upon arrival." And appointments are required. But there are some neat little historical exhibits at headquarters where you get the pass. They even had a PCC in there, but that might have been just while PCC operations were suspended.

I live in Pittsburgh and a year ago I had to apply in person for my senior pass in Philadelphia. The appointment can be made online but at least their headquarters is convenient to the Market St. lines. Once there, the procedure is very efficient and the pass is good for 4 years, I believe. Similar in person procedure in Pittsburgh, although an appointment is not required at the downtown service center.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Where I live in the Lehigh Valley of PA, the local bus system LANTA is free to seniors. You can apply for a pass by mail filling in a simple form. I have not used it much because the bus route through my town only runs 5 times a day and not on Sunday. With a 3 hour wait between buses that means you have to schedule around the runs like you were taking Amtrak. I feel a route has to run at least hourly to be at all useful.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Delaware (DART buses) has reduced fares for seniors. I doubt I’ll use the buses as it requires me to carry a lot of coins…which I rarely do. Full fares are even dollar amounts.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Since I live in Delaware, my free SEPTA pass still costs me money because Delaware wants its money. It subsidizes the SEPTA trains that serve 3 stations in DE. Though of the 4 trips I took from
DE to center city recently, only one conductor charged me the “out-of-state” reduced fare. There’s a fare also for traveling between Philly & Trenton, NJ.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

In some countries I'd imagine free transportation can work but in the US I'd expect it to become a rolling homeless shelter that pushes more productive people away. I find free and low cost service for seniors somewhat amusing since I know lots of seniors who spent their whole lives ranting (and voting) against public transportation. One thing MilesinTransit (youtube channel) taught me is that a lot of public services do little or nothing to enforce the fare and are in a kind of zombie mode where there is not enough revenue or funding so they just run fewer services less frequently on shrinking routes.

 

[Trollopian]

One thing MilesinTransit (youtube channel) taught me is that a lot of public services do little or nothing to enforce the fare and are in a kind of zombie mode where there is not enough revenue or funding so they just run fewer services less frequently on shrinking routes.

This. Transit costs money to run. If the choice is between "free" and skimpy and unreliable, on the one hand, and farepaying and frequent and reliable on the other, I'd vote for the latter. Literalman, upthread, describes a local transit system (in Alexandria, a close-in suburb of DC) that was free but not very useful, for him anyway.

Putting on my economist hat, I'd rather make driving more costly than transit cheaper. Toll roads, congestion charges, pricier parking. Registration charges that vary with vehicle weight. Fat chance. But I can dream.

 

[MARC Rider]

The PCC is still there.

Here it is, Jan 2023. We're all in line to get our Senior Key Cards.

 

[MARC Rider]

Since I live in Delaware, my free SEPTA pass still costs me money because Delaware wants its money. It subsidizes the SEPTA trains that serve 3 stations in DE. Though of the 4 trips I took from
DE to center city recently, only one conductor charged me the “out-of-state” reduced fare. There’s a fare also for traveling between Philly & Trenton, NJ.

I did that (Trenton to Philly) during the Gathering in 2023. It was about $5 if I remember correctly.

 

[PaTrainFan]

Where I live in the Lehigh Valley of PA, the local bus system LANTA is free to seniors. You can apply for a pass by mail filling in a simple form. I have not used it much because the bus route through my town only runs 5 times a day and not on Sunday. With a 3 hour wait between buses that means you have to schedule around the runs like you were taking Amtrak. I feel a route has to run at least hourly to be at all useful.

Yes, this is standard in PA but unfortunately every transit system has its own procedures for registering and providing passes for seniors. When you consider this (which admittedly has the most value in dense metro areas) and the fact that PA does not tax retirement income, this isn't a bad state for retirees.

 

[Paniolo Man]

Connect Bus (Formerly CVTD) is zero fare in a rural county in very red Utah.

They did a study in 2012 that found charging fare would cost more than it would generate.

Nelson/Nygaard recommended that Connect Transit not change its fare policy, for the following reasons:

• The expense of collecting the fare is generally greater than the revenue generated from the fare.
• Charging a fare causes significant ridership loss.
• Collecting a fare causes scheduled travel times to be lengthened because of the additional time needed for passengers to deposit the fare.
• Charging a fare makes it more difficult for Connect Transit to meet its mission of reducing the dependency on the automobile and supporting efforts to improve air quality, by reducing ridership.
• Collecting fares creates real and perceived barriers to using public transit, known as “Hassle Factors.”
• Charging a fare makes it more difficult for Connect Transit to meet the Envision Cache Valley principle to “Provide a balanced transportation with enhanced public transportation options” by reducing ridership.