Free SunRail rides coming soon!

[MattW]

I wonder if some of the sparseness in the schedule is due to equipment limitations? They only seem to have ordered 14 bilevel cars, enough for 7 trainsets of two each or four of three and one of two. I'll play with a graph of the timetable and see how the equipment rotation has to work out.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

First, no problem beautifulplanet. We might as well include Lynx into this too, since they and Votran are going to be play a major role in Sunrail's ridership. They do have one of the Tri-Rail DMUs in Sanford. I heard those aren't used a lot by Tri-Rail.

If Sunrail were to acquire those DMUs from Tri-Rail, it could help with the equipment limitations until the remainder of the cars and locomotives arrive. Those DMUs can carry almost 600 passengers per trainset.

 

[MikefromCrete]

This is just an initial schedule. I'm sure they wlll be fine-tuning it as they go along, depending on passenger demand. I mean, it is a start-up. Don't expect service every 15 minutes throughout the day.

 

[Anderson]

This is just an initial schedule. I'm sure they wlll be fine-tuning it as they go along, depending on passenger demand. I mean, it is a start-up. Don't expect service every 15 minutes throughout the day.

My understanding is that a longer-term goal is 30-60 minute frequencies all day, with something closer to 15-minute frequencies at the peaks. However, some of that is going to need to wait at least for Phase II, if not for an airport extension (or some effective connection to either FEC or Disney...anything that could effectively serve Disney and/or Universal would probably hit a capacity problem, though).

 

[beautifulplanet]

I wonder if some of the sparseness in the schedule is due to equipment limitations? They only seem to have ordered 14 bilevel cars, enough for 7 trainsets of two each or four of three and one of two. I'll play with a graph of the timetable and see how the equipment rotation has to work out.

Not having any graph available to me, it seems from like looking at the schedule that SunRail will need 5 trains to carry out that schedule. The equipment of the morning 5.06 departure in Sanford arrives at Sand Lake at 5.56, and then also probably serves as the first run at 6.15 out of Sand Lake, arriving at 7.11 in DeBary, so it could serve as the 7.30 southbound run again. In the meantime, 4 other trains left DeBary (5.30, 5.45, 6.30, 7.00), so a total of five consists seems to be needed.

Many might wish that everything works out just fine with the public opening of the service and that everything will go smoothly, as possibly it could be counter-productive if there were all these press reports around opening time about failure of equipment, or delays etc.

 

[Anderson]

I think it's five sets of equipment. The 5:30 AM turns as the 6:45 AM turns as the 8:00 AM. Also, the midday running schedule is a result of only using a single set of equipment at that time.

As to the sets, I wonder if they budgeted any spares in that 14.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I think it's five sets of equipment. The 5:30 AM turns as the 6:45 AM turns as the 8:00 AM. Also, the midday running schedule is a result of only using a single set of equipment at that time.

As to the sets, I wonder if they budgeted any spares in that 14.

I'm not sure if this is true, but I heard the DMU sets from Tri-Rail are actually leased until Sunrail begins. Don't know if those plans changed.

 

[Anderson]

Just wondering, but wasn't the Tri-Rail set a three-car set? If so, that would be 17 cars: Five sets of three, and two spares.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Just wondering, but wasn't the Tri-Rail set a three-car set? If so, that would be 17 cars: Five sets of three, and two spares.

Yep, it's a three car set.

 

[George Harris]

For an area as touristy as central Florida I would think the biggest issue would be the lack of service on weekends.

 

[Anderson]

For an area as touristy as central Florida I would think the biggest issue would be the lack of service on weekends.

Give it time. Right now, the underlying issue there is where SunRail doesn't go:

-The Sand Lake Road stop isn't too far from the airport, but that is still a bit of a messy connection to even attempt. This is likely to get fixed in a few years (I've seen plans to build a connector to the airport once the FEC station is in place).

-The Sand Lake Road station is also problematically far from I-Drive. It runs a bit too far east since it is confined to the A-line.

-Nothing is going to go close to Disney. I'm not sure what the connections from the Kissimmee Amtrak station are like.

Obviously, there's a lot of talk of something going to I-Drive and/or Disney...but it isn't in the current SunRail plan. I suspect the main question is whether this ends up being an FEC project, a municipal project in cooperation with FEC (who is going to want that alignment for access to Tampa and will likely not pass up on the opportunity to pack in the hundreds of thousands of riders those two stations can offer), or a primarily municipal project on FEC tracks (which is plausible...it is entirely possible that local traffic between OIA and Disney would swamp the system and kill through ridership in the same vein that Amtrak has to limit Denver-Glenwood Springs ridership). At the very least, FEC would likely need some way to run additional trains on that segment and/or arrange some sort of interchange with SunRail.

So...does anyone have an old map of where the HSR line was going to go?

Edit: I'll clarify my previous question. There were two alignments under consideration. One went via I-4 (which Disney opposed) and one went via another route, I believe SR-429. I believe they'd both cross the A-line at about Sand Lake Road; it seems possible that if interconnection becomes a bit of a mess, you could set up a Secaucus-style station there. To quote SunRail's website:

Located near the intersection of Orange Avenue and Sand Lake Road, the SunRail station at Sand Lake Road serves an expanding residential and business hub in south Orlando. The station offers easy bus access to the Florida Mall and the attractions area, as well as Orlando International Airport (OIA). The Sand Lake Road SunRail station is designed to connect with future rail options now planned to serve OIA to the east and the Orange County Convention Center and the International Drive tourism district to the west. This station also serves the residents of nearby Belle Isle and Taft. Current station designs include a park and ride lot and bus drop-off area.

Even though the present station is set to be just north of Sand Lake Road, depending on how the interconnection ultimately gets set up I could see the platforms getting moved a block or two south.

Moving back to the tourist front, another thing to remember is that the economics of this are a tangle for Disney. Let's look at several main categories of Disney visitor:

(1) The Disney Package Tourist. A train would help Disney with this category by removing the need to run the extensive shuttles to/from the airport, limiting the service to an on-property service (which they already run by and large). However, a complication arises insofar as a stop at I-Drive could steal some of these folks away to other off-property hotels...though at peak seasons, this is likely close to a moot point if the hotels are close enough to full anyway. A caveat is that the train might actually encourage staying on property for longer trips where the kids are likely to insist on a day somewhere that isn't Disney.

(2) The Staying-Elsewhere Tourist. Unless the rail service induces someone to visit Disney (i.e. someone visiting Tampa pops up for a day), this could turn into a net loss with Disney's parking revenue. However, this could be negated if Disney can work out a deal to get $X per passenger using their station as an offset (not to mention reducing internal congestion).

(3) The Annual Passholder. I differentiate this person from the other two because (A) parking fees are a non-consideration (already included in the pass) and (B) they're likely to be local. Making getting to the parks convenient is probably a good thing for Disney (since each visit is likely to result in incremental food and beverage revenue) so long as it doesn't cause park crowding.

Again, the issue here is that crushing loads of traffic between OIA and I-Drive and Disney can present a problem. Projections from 2009 or so seemed to put the combined load of traffic between OIA and those two destinations around three million riders, or about 10,000/day. The only way FEC could hope to accommodate that load without dedicated trains would be to run everything that would otherwise terminate at OIA (versus continuing on to Tampa) through to Disney and then turn it (likely making an operational headache of the WDW station). Moreover, I'm not sure what fare yield FEC could get out of passengers...particularly if SunRail tries to get in the mix (as they want to, with the OIA Connector project), since they would likely undercut FEC's fares.

*sighs*

So, I'm sensing an impending fight. One distinct possibility, given the tendency of airport lines to feature a surcharge, is that FEC does the opposite of what Tri-Rail is attempting, and pushes SunRail not to undercut them on fares to/from OIA. Given that a round trip on SunRail is presently slated to cost $7.50, what would be reasonable for an airport round-trip? A one-way taxi ride from OIA-Magic Kingdom seems to run $65-70, while downtown would run $40. I wonder how many folks would be willing to drop $8-10/person on a train?

Of course, this also raises a particularly strange possibility as well: If SunRail, instead of FEC, handles a decent share of the tourist traffic (particularly going anywhere-but-Disney) and has a hefty upcharge, that branch could flip into the black...

======================================

Yes, I think Walt is smiling broadly on this. As near as I can tell, his monorails were something of a railfan Hail Mary to save transit in America at a time when passenger trains had acquired a bad name (he looked into extending the line at Disneyland to downtown LA at one time [1]). His Progress City was largely built around transit, with the massive (underground) parking garages striking me as a concession to the increasingly auto-centric 60s more than anything...so if his biggest legacy, in the end, is the first profitable private-sector passenger rail operation since the 50s I think he'd be pleased with that.

[1] http://thedisneyblog.com/2006/02/11/walts-vision-bring-monorails-to-los-angeles-now/

 

[beautifulplanet]

Many might be surprised to read many paragraphs here about SunRail to the Walt Disney World Resort in Lake Buena Vista, Florida, or about some possible competition for rail passengers between a possible future SunRail service and a possible future Florida East Coast Industries' service, especially since there are no plans to expand SunRail directly to the World Disney World Resort except for a future 10+miles bus connection from SunRail's Phase 2 Osceola Parkway station in Hunter's Creek, Florida, once it's operating in 2017.

To many, the situation presents itself like this:

- SunRail Phase 1 starts operating in May 2014 (after a soft opening)

- Florida East Coast Industries' service between Miami and Orlando International Airport starts operating in "late 2015" (according to a February 2014 statement by FEC, could be scaled down to merely refer to just Miami to Cocoa, with Orlando International Airport service starting later, or everything could be delayed more still no matter what the reason)

- SunRail Phase 2 starts construction in 2015, starts operating in 2017 (if everything seems to go according to plan)

- SunRail to Orlando International Airport, according to press reports from November 2013, is "five years or more away". So even with the $213 million for the Intermodal Transportation Hub, the SunRail airport connection could theoretically be 2017 in the earliest, probably years later...

- In addition, it might seem to many that Florida East Coast Industries did not make any concrete or even binding statements yet about any future investment in the Orlando-Tampa corridor, or especially any connection to the Walt Disney World Report in Lake Buena Vista, Florida

- Then there's still the proposal of the privately built and operated 14.9 mile maglev system connecting Orange County Convention Center, Florida Mall, the Sand Lake Road SunRail station and Orlando International Airport, by a company called American Maglev Technology - to many it seems like this company did not have much luck with its projects in the past, and there are still technical problems, so it might be highly likely that this proposal never turns into reality

Finally it might seem to some, that there are corridors in Central Florida under study for potential rail use:

- Orlando International Airport (OIA) Connector, basically the same corridor as AMT's proposal: study estimated to be completed in "spring 2014", so soon

- US 441 Corridor Study, from Eustis and Tavares via Apopka to downtown Orlando, recently there were more press reports about potential, distant-future commuter rail service on an existing rail line in that corridor

- SR 50/UCF Connector Alternatives Analysis, examining the need for public transport improvements from Oakland and Winter Garden through downtown to University of Central Florida, basically along SR-50 with a buffer of one mile on each side: estimated to be completed approximately October 2014

There was another corridor under study for possible rail use, which even could have made a rail connection as close to Walt Disney World Resort like none other yet, but the current result is that bus rapid transit is preferred. At least that seems to have been the outcome of the Final Report of the US 192 Alternatives Analysis published last December, that looked at a north-south "Kissimmee corridor" and a east-west "Osceola corridor" along US 192 starting in the west at route 27 all the way to East Kissimmee.

So to many, it may seem like this may be the current situation regarding rail in Central Florida, and that there is nothing about a rail connection to the Walt Disney World Resort in there yet. Still of course in case there is, it would be great to be provided with all the details about it. And of course, with all these mentioned or potential other corridors still having a chance of getting rail, it might seem to many that all the people wanting more rail in Central Florida can still advocate for it.

 

[Anderson]

I'm looking a couple of things:
(1) I assume FEC's project will be a success. Based on the markets involved, etc., this seems likely. It is very possible that FEC is going to more or less kill off the MCO-MIA air market (since my understanding is that said market is of the sort the airlines would just assume not operate anyway). Likewise, I assume that (based on the studies done for the bullet train) FEC is going to seriously look into running through to Tampa, particularly if they can get the ability to run some off-hour freight on their lines...which would break the CSX monopoly in the region.

(2) I'm looking at the FEC/Tri-Rail negotiations, and seeing what looks like a very aggressive stance.

(3) I assume that the OIA Connector is going to happen in some form, but I also assume that the Maglev project is DOA. On the OIA Connector, however, I think FEC involvement may be inevitable in some form.

 

[Scott Orlando]

So...does anyone have an old map of where the HSR line was going to go?

The old HSR website is down and I wish I kept the ROW schematics. Basically from the new MCO South Terminal (where the AAF/SunRail station is now planned) the south out of the airport crossing Tradeport and then west along the north side of Taft Vineland Road, joining the Beach Line near the JYP intersection, from there to a I Drive/Convention center station. From there following 528 to the I-4 median. I-4 median to the north side of downtown Tampa.

 

[afigg]

The old HSR website is down and I wish I kept the ROW schematics. Basically from the new MCO South Terminal (where the AAF/SunRail station is now planned) the south out of the airport crossing Tradeport and then west along the north side of Taft Vineland Road, joining the Beach Line near the JYP intersection, from there to a I Drive/Convention center station. From there following 528 to the I-4 median. I-4 median to the north side of downtown Tampa.

The documents for the revised Final Environmental Impact Statement for the Tampa to Orlando HSR are available on the FRA website under the eLibrary tab. A search for Florida High-Speed turns up a batch of EIS documents and the ROD entered on May 7, 2010 and the original FEIS from July, 2005. Link to the result of the search. A search for All Aboard Florida turns up their EA and the FONSI for West Palm Beach to Miami segment.

While it is understandable that the state DOT would take the Florida HSR documents down since their Governor killed the project, the FRA has no reason to remove publicly filed documents. From a skim of the Appendix A maps, the route of the AAF tracks at the Orlando airport station looks to lead directly to the proposed Tampa to Orlando airport alignment.

 

[beautifulplanet]

(1) I assume FEC's project will be a success.

Of course many people who think that more public transportation options would be good for Florida might wish for Florida East Coast Industries' project to be a success.

(2) I'm looking at the FEC/Tri-Rail negotiations, and seeing what looks like a very aggressive stance.

Many in South Florida might be wishing for the Coastal Link between Jupiter, downtown Fort Lauderdale and Miami to start operating the popular Tri-Rail service soon as well, still a recent press report stated that it is only expected to start in 2020. Same report said that Florida East Coast Industries' own service is also only expected to start in 2016, in contrast to the "late 2015" mentioned earlier.

See here:

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/article/South-Florida-rail-upgrades-to-provide-more-freight-transit-travel-options--39706

Some might wish for the news to come out soon that the negotiations over trackage fees came to an successful closing that is acceptable both for Florida East Coast Industries and the South Florida Regional Transportation Authority.

 

[beautifulplanet]

(3) I assume that the OIA Connector is going to happen in some form[.]

Many might assume for it to happen, at the same time realize this is not a done deal yet. And some might think that it is not only important that it happens "in some form", but also in the best possible form. Just the day before yesterday, on March 12, 5:30 p.m. to 7:30 p.m. at the First Baptist Church of Pine Castle, there was another public meeting. Not knowing how many people attended, how that meeting went or what was being presented there, and just using the info on the www.oiaconnector.com website, it seems like remaining there are 2 bus rapid transit alternatives (2 and 6), and 2 light rail alternatives (3 and 4, with one variation each).

It might sound promising to many that the alternative 3a was developed after community input, as that light-rail alternative also serves the area of 436 right north of the airport better and goes along International Drive for some part of the way, so also providing access to all the destinations there.

Many might think that it sounds good that the light-rail alternative should be grade-separated completely in its own right-of-way, in opposition to the BRT alternatives without dedicated lanes, just using shared and public traffic space. So while BRT would be subject to road traffic delays and traffic jams, light-rail should provide a more reliable service with a high on-time performance.

At the same time, it might be surprising to many that the light-rail alternatives are supposed to be in a nearly completely aerial alignment, as it might seem possible to have it at-grade at least for several larger segments while still having its own seperated right-of-way without grade crossings.

Of course, this is just the Alternative Analysis study now, and first a light-rail alternative must be chosen as preferred alternative, and then go through further planning and finally receive funding for construction. Still, the plans being made now could be what decides what and how exactly something might be built years down the road (or "down the rail line" ). So some might already have the concern now that with the renderings of the intermodal station at the airport, it seems like walking distances from the new south terminal to light-rail and especially to commuter rail seem to be quite far. It might seem to some that it would be beneficial for the success of light rail if walking distances would be minimized, especially at the airport where a lot of riders with heavy luggage could be expected.

I also assume that the Maglev project is DOA.

Some might think that even if the Maglev ends up being built, it would not exclude or contradict the planned OIA Connector, because they seem to target different groups of riders. As the Maglev proposal would only feature the Convention Center, Florida Mall, the Sand Lake rail station, Orlando International Airport and Lake Nona as stop locations, it would be more of an express-service, in opposition to a slower light-rail or even bus rapid transit service with a stop roughly every mile and fulfilling a basic local public transportation function. Business travelers might be willing to pay a higher fare to f.e. get from the airport to the Convention Center more quickly, compared to the roughly 30 minutes of the planned light-rail alternatives.

On the OIA Connector, however, I think FEC involvement may be inevitable in some form.

Some might think, in case the options 2 or 6 are selected with bus rapid transit, it is likely there would not be much FEC involvement. Also in case the options 3 or 4 (or some might wish, hopefully 3a) with light-rail are selected, then likely there would not be much FEC involvement with the operation of a light-rail line. Except maybe to when it comes to the connections to the long-distance rail service at the new intermodal station at the Orlando International Airport.

 

[Anderson]

Just wondering, but what are the alternatives on the table?

 

[George Harris]

. . ., but I also assume that the Maglev project is DOA. . . .

I have described Maglev as a solution looking for a problem. It does look line the Tokyo to Osaka maglev will get built, but a concern with the Maglev system is its high energy consumption which is described as being roughly three times that of the Shinkansen trains, presumably on a per passenger basis. There are also some safety issues, particularly concerning passenger evacuaton, which is in generally not an issue with the Japanese system since it runs in a channel guideway, but near insoluable if not truly insoluable with the German system since the vehicle wraps around the guideway. Hint: exit from the ends only is insufficient in capacity and a side emergency walkway does not appear to be possible. Switching between tracks is far more complex and expensive than a railroad turnout, even one for very high speed.

For a short distance the very high speed potential of the maglev is more for bragging rights than reduction in run time, as most of the distance is spent accelerating or braking. Sahnghai Airport system is a good example of that. Only a few seconds are spent at the maximum speed.

 

[beautifulplanet]

Just wondering, but what are the alternatives on the table?

Regarding the OIA Connector Refresh Alternatives Analysis, there is the website mentioned above, http://www.oiaconnector.com

Clicking on "Documents & Publications" on the left, there are several PDFs, among them:

- the overview of the remaining 4 alternatives called "Four Viable Alternatives Map (posted 10/01/13)", see here:

http://www.oiaconnector.com/system/js/back/ckfinder/userfiles/files/Four_Viable_Alternatives_Map_11x17.pdf

(the red and turquoise one are BRT, the red and blue one are light-rail)

- the "Transit Operating Plans (posted 12/27/13)", showing example schedules (including headways for different times of day and days of the week) and run times for all the stops on the proposed alternatives

http://www.oiaconnector.com/system/js/back/ckfinder/userfiles/files/OIA%20Operations%20Plan%20Report_Final_121813.pdf

- and the more recent document, the "Conceptual Definition of Alternatives Report (posted 02/28/2014)", see here:

http://www.oiaconnector.com/system/js/back/ckfinder/userfiles/files/OIA%20Final%20Conceptual%20Definition%20of%20Alternatives%20Report(2)_021114.pdf

Many might have the impression that alternative 3a with light-rail going into the 436 area north of the airport, as well as going down International Drive, might be the most promising alternative. So it is interesting to read in the last document on page 10:

An alternate alignment was suggested after meetings with stakeholders. Alternative 3a is similar to

Alternative 3 except north of OIA and in the International Drive area. After following TG Lee Boulevard, the Alternative 3a alignment turns north to follow Semoran Boulevard, then turns onto Hazeltine

National Drive, Butler National Drive and Shadowridge Drive, prior to rejoining the Alternative 3

alignment along South Conway Road. Instead of turning south on Universal Boulevard, Alternative 3a

continues along Sand Lake Road, then turns south at International Drive, before turning east onto

Destination Parkway to terminate at the Destination Parkway Transit Center.

So it might seem like alternative 3a really came into existence because involved stakeholders saw the benefits in it as well.

Now "Spring 2014" doesn't seem far away, and many might be impatient to find out what the recommended alternative might be in the end, what the concerned people of Florida as well as the involved businesses, organizations and government entities finally chose, as many might think that this project with a possible good light rail east-west connection connecting the airport and other major urban destinations along that corridor would have the potential to be a game-changer for public transportation in currently largely car-dependent Central Florida.

 

[Scott Orlando]

So it might seem like alternative 3a really came into existence because involved stakeholders saw the benefits in it as well.

Now "Spring 2014" doesn't seem far away, and many might be impatient to find out what the recommended alternative might be in the end, what the concerned people of Florida as well as the involved businesses, organizations and government entities finally chose, as many might think that this project with a possible good light rail east-west connection connecting the airport and other major urban destinations along that corridor would have the potential to be a game-changer for public transportation in currently largely car-dependent Central Florida.

The 3 and 3a alternatives (If I had a vote it would be 3a), are by far the most productive routes. Nearly every area has huge ridership potential:

(1)- Airport hub. MCO will be the mother of all Orlando transport hubs.

(2)- North Airport. Becoming a small city of off airport hotels and restaurants

(3)-Sand Lake/Orange Ave. The much needed SunRail connection. This might change slightly with a direct SunRail connection from the south to the MCO South Terminal. Still a fairly busy stop even if SunRail passengers do not need to change trains to the airport. Even with direct SunRail to the airport, passengers from here would transfer to go west to I-Drive and convention area.

(4)- Florida Mall. The largest mall in Florida and growing

(5)- International Drive. Multiple high traffic stops. I would actually think a more northern route, perhaps going NW from the airport along the turnpike and joining I-Drive near Oak Ridge would produce considerably more riders. It gets closer to Universal that way and if we are going to do this lets do it right. The more western 3a route would be expensive but worth it.

(6) Convention Center. Huge complex finally gets its connection to the airport.

(7) expansion going south along I drive to SeaWorld many more hotels, shopping and getting closer to LBV area....and Disney

This potential route connects many of Orlando's tourist spots. With the introduction of SunRail, many have questioned how it will be effective without a connection to the "tourist areas". This is the answer.

 

[pennyk]

Has anyone heard or read an update as to whether SunRail will be running during the Winter Park Art Festival this weekend?

 

[chrsjrcj]

According to SunRail's Facebook, trains will not be running for the festival.

https://www.facebook.com/RideSunRail/photos/a.10150944667323847.443955.81225598846/10152184627553847/?type=1&reply_comment_id=11417039&total_comments=1

I guess we'll have to wait until May 1st. Already took the day off work, so I can participate in all the opening day fun.

 

[pennyk]

Thanks. I had not been following SunRail on FB. I am now. I plan to start riding when they have the "soft opening" in mid April. I will also try to ride on opening day. I can walk to the Lynx and Central station if the weather is decent.

Maybe we can have a mini gathering. :lol:

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Thanks. I had not been following SunRail on FB. I am now. I plan to start riding when they have the "soft opening" in mid April. I will also try to ride on opening day. I can walk to the Lynx and Central station if the weather is decent.

Maybe we can have a mini gathering. :lol:

Sure, I could make it, but I maybe fashionably late.