Future Amtrak Equipment and ADA ideas

[danasgoodstuff]

Trains like the Heartland Flyer will most likely get Cascades-like Diesel Airos eventually, unless they become more reasonably innovative and get a FLIRT or something like that. Texas has already gone that route on a few routes around Dallas so it might happen.

When the Heartland Flyer gets extended so it connects with something, hopefully it will support larger consists.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Quite an exaggeration. Superliner coaches have 74 seats. Amfleet-2 havd 60. 4 single levels will still have 18 more seats than 3 bi-levels. That's one more coach per consist and perhaps 3 sleepers instead of 2. With 2 food service and a baggage car, train grows from 8 to 10 cars, which is 25%, not 50%..

In an era where long haul trains can be dispatched without a lounge or baggage car and a sleeper full of OBS it may be less of an exaggeration than it first appears. I've watched Western trains shrink from long to medium to short. They look more like yard moves in the low season. That said I'll be dead and buried by the time Amtrak replaces the Western fleet so hopefully you get whatever you want.

 

[MccfamschoolMom]

When the Heartland Flyer gets extended so it connects with something, hopefully it will support larger consists.

It does connect with the Texas Eagle now (at Fort Worth), but I imagine what you're talking about is the route being extended to connect with additional routes (maybe the City of New Orleans to the East, or the Southwest Chief to the West or Northwest?).

 

[jis]

In an era where long haul trains can be dispatched without a lounge or baggage car and a sleeper full of OBS it may be less of an exaggeration than it first appears. I've watched Western trains shrink from long to medium to short. They look more like yard moves in the low season. That said I'll be dead and buried by the time Amtrak replaces the Western fleet so hopefully you get whatever you want.

Frankly, what will happen in your and my lifetime is pretty fixed with the current RFP which is the subject of a thread dedicated to it. This thread by its very nature, being about what could/should happen when the acquisitions of the current RFP come up for replacement. So by its very nature it is about stuff that will happen possibly well after you and I are not around. We are talking about stuff that might come to pass 30-40 years from now in the LD part of the Amtrak business. Until then whatever is acquired based on the current RFP through initial order and options is what will hold the fort out West, for places where bi-levels are used. There may still be some single levels thrown in here and there in minor routes.

And East of the Miss it will most likely be pretty much be single level except the Auto Train and maybe one other train.

 

[John Santos]

Trains like the Heartland Flyer will most likely get Cascades-like Diesel Airos eventually, unless they become more reasonably innovative and get a FLIRT or something like that. Texas has already gone that route on a few routes around Dallas so it might happen.

This is how Internet conversations get off track (snicker snicker). @TrimetWESFan1003 mentioned the HARTFORD line and the Valley FLYER, nothing about the HEARTLAND FLYER... The Valley Flyer runs on the Hartford Line along the Connecticut River (the same route as the Vermonter) from New Haven to Greenfield MA, no where near Texas or Oklahoma. It is all single level and there are almost certainly clearance issues for Superliner cars, including NEC cat clearance in New Haven. So the problems and opportunities for these lines are very different from the Heartland Flyer, which is currently all Superliner equipment.

It would be great if Amtrak could find common equipment that would work in both the east and west, but I think that is very unlikely and is, for the next several decades, a pipe-dream. Amtrak needs new and additional equipment NOW, not in the 2050's.

 

[jis]

When the Heartland Flyer gets extended so it connects with something, hopefully it will support larger consists.

Ideally the Heartland Flyer should be made a Houston to Kansas City train and be equipped out of the LD bi-level pool. OTOH if it remains a FTW - OKC or Newton train it might remain a Regional equipment train or whatever Texas decides for it. So its equipment for the future RFP eventually will depend quite a bit on what the route structure is 20-30 years out.

 

[TrimetWESFan1003]

This is how Internet conversations get off track (snicker snicker). @TrimetWESFan1003 mentioned the HARTFORD line and the Valley FLYER, nothing about the HEARTLAND FLYER... The Valley Flyer runs on the Hartford Line along the Connecticut River (the same route as the Vermonter) from New Haven to Greenfield MA, no where near Texas or Oklahoma. It is all single level and there are almost certainly clearance issues for Superliner cars, including NEC cat clearance in New Haven. So the problems and opportunities for these lines are very different from the Heartland Flyer, which is currently all Superliner equipment.

It would be great if Amtrak could find common equipment that would work in both the east and west, but I think that is very unlikely and is, for the next several decades, a pipe-dream. Amtrak needs new and additional equipment NOW, not in the 2050's.

Too bad past FRA compliant DMUs from Colorado Railcar and Nippon Sharyo are no longer being made. Then Amtrak could just get those for the Springfield line trains. A 2 car DMU train would be better than a train of 2 unpowered cars plus a separate engine to pull them.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

https://www.amtrakconnectsus.com/maps/newton-wichita-oklahoma-city-fort-worth/ Heartland Flyer Extension

 

[MccfamschoolMom]

https://www.amtrakconnectsus.com/maps/newton-wichita-oklahoma-city-fort-worth/ Heartland Flyer Extension

Thanks for the link! I don't have a map in front of me, but I'm guessing that the proposed new northern terminus at Newton, KS would connect to the Southwest Chief?

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Thanks for the link! I don't have a map in front of me, but I'm guessing that the proposed new northern terminus at Newton, KS would connect to the Southwest Chief?

Yes connect to the SWC. If a middle of the night connection is your thing. Both SWC are between 2am and 3am.

 

[MccfamschoolMom]

If a middle of the night connection is your thing.

Been there/done that, catching the Empire Builder at Fargo, ND to get home from college in the 1970s. Not great, but better than no passenger rail connection at all.

 

[cocojacoby]

And East of the Miss it will most likely be pretty much be single level except the Auto Train and maybe one other train.

Possibly three? A Superliner Capitol/Star combo soon and then maybe a new Chicago - Miami train via Atlanta before we die.

Seems like the coming combo is probably going to be single level however.

And it would be great if the Meteor did a split at Orlando and served Tampa when this change happens.

 

[Goldspike_Railfanning]

Introducing the Siemens Sightseer Lounge! Can’t sit in your coach seat and window for a full trip? Tired of freight trains delaying your train? Need to get up and walk around? I sure do! So take a walk to the Venture Sightseer Lounge and enjoy a spacious railcar dedicated to viewing the beautiful surroundings! Forget about those freight trains and enjoy comfy seating and spacious windows as you view the mountains of the Cascade Range, the waters of the Bay Area, and more!

This concept takes a standard Venture coach and enlarges the windows, as well as adds windows to the roof of the car. Like the Superliner Sightseer Lounge, the windows on the top do not wrap around the entire roof for what I assume is due to maintaining the structure of the car. For now, I have only made a San Joaquins and Cascades car, but I plan on making a Midwest and Phase VII Lounge, as well as an interior diagram once I get the measurements of everything. The lounge would be pretty close to the Superliner interior anyways.

What do you think?

- Original Venture diagram is by siemenscharger7 on imgur
- Sightseer Lounge concept, edits (such as windows), and applying paint schemes are by me

 

[jiml]

Although a noble undertaking that would be popular with passengers, the days of customized railcars may be relegated to our memories. Off-the-shelf is the current preferred business model and I don't think Siemens could be persuaded to do such a limited run nor would Amtrak be prepared to pay the likely outrageous asking price to do so. Single level observation-style cars are available from other manufacturers for the European market and might be a better starting point.

 

[user 14106]

If there was a DMU version of the Venture cab car design, they could be used on the Hartford Line and Valley Flyer trains so the 2 car trains used on those lines wouldn't need to use a seperate engine to pull only 2 cars.

Based on most of the talk related to the Hartford Line they will likely be moving away from the 2 car trains over time and replacing those with more through trains that will use the standard Airo dual mode trainsets. One thing that is hinted at with that is that Springfield, not New Haven, is listed as getting major work to enable servicing the Airo equipment.

 

[nferr]

It's a capacity and experience thing. Superliners are way more efficient and have much more revenue space that helps the bottom line and should lower costs and prices. The Superliner diners and lounges are fantastic cars. This is "experiential" train travel. Superliners are impressive even 50 years later.

As far as eastern LD trains, the Viewliner diner is not fine. It has inadequate capacity to serve a full train especially with the reduction in seating due to the ADA open space and don't get me started on the crew taking up space and the two trash boxes bumping around in that open area. As an exclusive "First Class Lounge" it works and it is a very nice space if the crew allows you to hang around. But is that the intent? Should coach passengers be excluded and stuck with microwave cafe food? Maybe with the prices sleeper passengers pay it is. They should get free quality snacks and Happy Hour drink prices and make it a real First Class experience.

As far as the sleepers go, I actually prefer the Viewliner sleeping rooms to the claustrophobic Superliners. Amtrak did a great job designing those rooms. But again capacity is much much lower in a Viewliner than a Superliner train overall but in this case the Viewliner experience gets the nod.

Perhaps a combination would work best for the eastern LDs? Viewliner sleepers and new Viewliner coaches bookending a bilevel core consisting of 14' 6" high full-length bilevel diner, bilevel lounge, and a bilevel cafe. ADA access would be possible with elevators. The bilevel core cars would have adequate headroom on both levels and have skylight roofs to make them feel even more spacious.

I think that would work best for the eastern LDs but that's just my dream a this point.

The bi level cars cost a lot more so I'm not sure on the "efficiency" aspect. The diners are rarely ever full anymore under Amtraks methods of operating them so I don't understand the inadequate capacity comment on the Viewliner diners. We did just fine with single level diners for decades. I love the Superliners but trying to force them into the East makes little sense with all the issues associated.

 

[thefirewarde]

I love the Superliners but trying to force them into the East makes little sense with all the issues associated.

And NC has been putting new high level platforms up, on top of everything else. Superliners aren't very welcome there (or at least in Raleigh and Charlotte).

 

[Libby]

And NC has been putting new high level platforms up, on top of everything else. Superliners aren't very welcome there (or at least in Raleigh and Charlotte).

Why?

 

[jis]

Why?

To meet ADA Regulation requirements on routes/stations which have only single level trains using the platforms and where there is no freight traffic on the platform tracks.

 

[thefirewarde]

Why?

Raleigh and Charlotte have new (Charlotte isn't open yet but the platforms exist) stations with platforms that aren't on the main freight tracks, that were built expecting to handle ten or more daily round trips, all using single level equipment. At that point you see a decent bit of operational efficiency from level boarding.

Notably NC was never part of the Next Generation Passenger Car failed bilevel order, either. Of likely Venture car users, NC might be the only state purchaser who wanted Ventures as their first choice (Amtrak itself is not a state, they also like single levels for the East Coast).

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

A database of platform heights and lengths would be interesting. Amtrak settled with the federal government over ADA compliance, and now with IIJA funding may complete work on all stations by 2029. Just identifying which entities control which stations took a while. In one case a state DOT said they fixed the station and parking lot, but the Amtrak compliance office said they did not. You can search the web for ADA Stations Program (ADASP), and get both Amtrak's biannual reports and some Amtrak OIG reports.

At that level of reporting, it doesn't show whether a station has high-level platforms or just lifts. But Amtrak liking high-level platforms for new work or rebuilds in the East is sensible. The Amtrak Station Program and Planning Guidelines(*) sure makes it sound that way.

... at new and altered station platforms... Where level-entry boarding cannot be provided due to freight-clearance requirements or mixed equipment, the passenger railroad operator must submit to the FRA or FTA a narrative that shows how they intend to meet the performance standard. Amtrak will submit narratives on the behalf of external project sponsors designing and constructing platforms.

Easiest way is to build it best. And everyone benefits at busy stations.

(*) The Guidelines document, which has almost everything you'd want to know about platforms, for example, is courtesy of NY State DOT. Over at Amtrak's Great American Stations you'd have to fill out a form to request access.

 

[MccfamschoolMom]

I think the Dwight, IL station has a lift (I've seen it in use, but not where it's stored), and that's sufficient for a small station like ours with low ridership.

 

[turtlypo]

After a LOT of boredom, I decided to try and trace the RFP train diagrams from their raster images into vector graphics. Attached is a PDF of the results (RFPliner), as well as a long “consist” PDF showing everything as a connected standard train. Lots of things I learned:

• The RFP Spec contains a few small errors, nothing too critical. Mostly typos in page numbers, writing the wrong thing (“Accessible Premium Double” instead of “Accessible Premium Bedroom”). It seems like there were a lot of back-and-forth revisions between the specification writing, 3D rendering, and 2D diagram drawing.
• Figure 1-14 (Page 1-16) shows the contents of each conceptual car (a “Consist Contents). Some contents (Common Shower, Conductor Room) seems to deviate from what’s shown in diagram.

One of my goals was to conjure up a hypothetical Priority Sleeper that’s missing in the Specification. Some astute folks on here noticed the Priority Sleeper diagram was actually the Priority Coach, and might have been a mistake. I think Amtrak never had a Priority Sleeper diagram made:

• The Consist Contents (pg 1-16) shows a Premium Accessible Bedroom as a unique room in Priority Sleeper. Almost all other rooms/components have a version in another car.
• Premium Accessible Bedroom is the one space that specifies in its feature list “Unlike other sleeper cabins, the points below are not accompanied with diagram to show approximate lighting locations and types” (Page 11-191). It’s one of the very few rooms without any 3D renderings either, leaving design up to the RFP contractor.

With that, I tried my best to make a hypothetical Priority Sleeper. Accessible Twin and Accessible Double rooms should be nearly identical (presence/absence of an upper berth, and slightly wider/narrower lower berth). I couldn’t figure out a way to make the entire upper level ADA with 32” aisle, as the Club Bedroom design pretty much necessitates a narrow aisle. Premium Accessible Bedroom is definitely a rough assembly and has space to be filled with shelving/cubbies/wardrobe mentioned in the Specification.

Feel free to comment what you see, give suggestions for me to edit, or use it wherever you’d like (credit me if you so please). Some of the text labels were my best approximation at what the blurry words were. This was an excuse for me to learn Inkscape, so lots of beginner’s mistakes were made in the minutiae.

 

[cocojacoby]

Just can't not comment about the fact that Amtrak is showing great renderings of the coach cafe car that has beautiful dome-like skylights but only 3 1/2 tables stuck at one end so very few passengers can enjoy the great ambiance. This makes no sense especially if the lounge car is going to be restricted to first class sleeper passengers. The coach cafe car should have tables full length. This is a long distance train and socializing is an important part of the journey. Can't question this decision enough.

And just a side note on your consist. Amtrak has just about reconfigured all long distance trains to coaches up front and sleepers to the rear. The baggage is the last car. Supposedly this improves the ride quality for first class passengers by eliminating fishtailing and also makes the ride quieter for them.

 

[turtlypo]

The coach cafe car should have tables full length. This is a long distance train and socializing is an important part of the journey.

Agreed, after the new normal we're seeing with Airo coach recline/thinness and no-seating cafes, I'm hoping they draw the line at LD. On this RFP nearly half of the floor space of the cafe car is revenue seating.

And just a side note on your consist. Amtrak has just about reconfigured all long distance trains to coaches up front and sleepers to the rear. The baggage is the last car. Supposedly this improves the ride quality for first class passengers by eliminating fishtailing and also makes the ride quieter for them.

I debated between sleeper-front and -back but went with sleeper-front because the cafe car had table seating in the front and priority coach in the back, making the flow look better to connect the priority coaches closer. One could be super cynical and wonder if this LD consist was also designed for no-table-seating cafe, and those cafe car table seats are reserved for diner guests only...

I did notice soon as I posted that my "standard" consist is missing a second sleeper car that's mentioned in their Standard Trainset Makeup table (Pg 1-8 Fig 1-3).