Future Amtrak Equipment and ADA ideas

[cocojacoby]

Edit: The following post was added after a few comments that Amtrak was building too many different type cars in the new LD equipment proposal greatly complicating things.

I felt that a long time ago. I posted this back in September 2023 when Amtrak first showed their concept of six different "Core" cars (post #283):

I thought about this for a while and if you all would indulge me I would like to present an alternative concept to those interested. I think Amtrak has "overthunk" this. I am going with the bi-level design since I think it works better and is more desirable.

Amtrak is proposing using six differently designed cars for a six car semi-permanently coupled "core" trainset. I think you can do it with only 2 different car designs and a three car fixed set. Additional non-accessible coaches can be added to the front of the core and non-accessible sleepers on the rear.

This concept has four accessible bedrooms with connected bathrooms and four accessible coach seat locations. There is no passing though the dining car which is going to be problematic when servers are trying to deliver food to passengers. Wheelchair passengers will have much shorter distances to travel within the train to access any feature. Use the same color codes as Amtrak's diagrams. Train is going to the left: Non-Accessible Coaches/Car 1/Diner/Car 3/Non-Accessible Sleepers/Baggage-Dorm.

So here we go:

Car 1 and Car 3 are a "Multipurpose" car that can be fitted with coach seating, table seating or lounge seating upstairs and two accessible bedrooms downstairs. The same car is flipped and used as bookends to the core.

Car 2 is a full diner with a full-width kitchen downstairs and table seating upstairs. The four tables at the two ends have convertible tables that allow accessible wheelchair use as needed.

CAR 1 - MULTIPUPOSE CAR OUTFITTED WITH COACH SEATS
Cafe Counter
Two Accessible First Class Bedrooms with Attached Bathrooms
Two Assessible Wheelchair Coach Spaces with Fold Out Tables
Fully Assessible Public Restroom



CAR 2 - FULL LENGTH DINER
Convertible tables at both ends for wheelchair access.



CAR 3 - MULTIPURPOSE CAR FLIPPED IN OPPOSITE DIRECTION OUTFITTED WITH LOUNGE TABLES OR LOUNGE SEATING
Cafe Counter
Two Accessible First Class Bedrooms with Attached Bathrooms
Two Assessible Wheelchair Coach Spaces with Fold Out Tables
Fully Assessible Public Restroom



Seems so much simpler than Amtrak's solution. Feedback appreciated. Let me know if I missed something. Thanks.

 

[thefirewarde]

For comparison's sake, what happens now when LD equipment has to be set out mid-trip? Particularly the food service cars - I can see how displacing passengers is unfortunate but possible. Cooking in a roomette is much harder.

 

[jis]

For comparison's sake, what happens now when LD equipment has to be set out mid-trip? Particularly the food service cars - I can see how displacing passengers is unfortunate but possible. Cooking in a roomette is much harder.

They order KFC or Domino's or equivalent for all passengers. It is uncommon to have to set out a food service car, but what happens more often than that is the equipment on the car used for preparing or preserving food stops working, which pretty much has the same effect as setting out the car as far as providing food service goes. A similar thing happens when a train is running many hours late for whatever reason and all food runs out.

Fortunately LD trains typically do not carry an enormous number of passengers on each run and that keeps things manageable.

 

[thefirewarde]

Anecdotally it seems like a relatively rare problem, which if the coupling specs for disconnecting the semipermanent couplings are met, there shouldn't be a major issue beyond the existing trouble with setting out a mid-consist car.

I also wish the cars were a bit more modular, with e.g. a seat mounting interface and seats, plus a standard "sittin' car" body, "sleepin' car" body, and "eatin' car" body. Being able to change the interior for the Ski Train, for the Auto Train, for a one night Night Train, or in response to changing long-term demand seems ideal. I do understand making things modular is often more expensive up front, plus other tradeoffs.

I'm trying to reduce the number of spares I have to stock at work for maintenance - having three types of machine is inarguably simpler than over 10.

 

[PaTrainFan]

They order KFC or Domino's or equivalent for all passengers. It is uncommon to have to set out a food service car, but what happens more often than that is the equipment on the car used for preparing or preserving food stops working, which pretty much has the same effect as setting out the car as far as providing food service goes. A similar thing happens when a train is running many hours late for whatever reason and all food runs out.

Fortunately LD trains typically do not carry an enormous number of passengers on each run and that keeps things manageable.

Several years ago on a Coast Starlight trip the kitchen went out of service enroute and we were provided subs for lunch.

 

[Steve4031]

An interesting idea for single level observation cars could be the panorama cars used on some routes in Europe. I don’t know this is feasible due to crush zones, crash worthiness. I did enjoy riding in them in Europe.

I road the Rocky Mountaineer cars too. The double deck cars were amazing. Not sure how these would be modified for sleeping car accommodations.

 

[Cal]

I road the Rocky Mountaineer cars too. The double deck cars were amazing. Not sure how these would be modified for sleeping car accommodations.

They're too tall for Amtrak I believe.

 

[west point]

They're too tall for Amtrak I believe.

Except for Starlight, Sunset, & Auto Train. Also a possible DFW - ATL only train.

 

[GDRRiley]

I am annoyed that Amtrak hasn't figured out that it's best to go with something that has somewhat of a proven track record. Would it be possible for Seimens to produce a Nightjet-type sleeper that is laid out more like a Viewliner sleeper?

Amtrak to do this proposal right would be a lot more open in the design and just lay out standards they need to meet that aren't crazy
110mph top speed, fit superliner clearance plus 2in extra vertically, can operate in these conditions, ect. Thats how Europe does it, Amtrak went here is the exact train we want you figure out how to build it and oh buy the way we don't want to pay new custom train money

 

[GDRRiley]

They're too tall for Amtrak I believe.

some routes could use them but yes they are on the tall side at 18ft 1.5in tall which won't fit in some key tunnels, thats also a high floor design

Spoiler: Specs

 

[Paniolo Man]

We continually get hung up on specs of existing products. Sure the RM Stadler cars are too tall, but for an order of several hundred cars worth billions of dollars nobody is going to pitch an existing design, every bid will be something new from the ground up.

Orders like the Stadler RM cars and Metra's new Alstom cars serve only as precedent, proving that a manufacturer can build something structurally and functionally similar. Odds are we'll see some common design aspects shared with other products, but the design overall will be completely new.

 

[Cal]

Except for Starlight, Sunset, & Auto Train. Also a possible DFW - ATL only train.

some routes could use them but yes they are on the tall side at 18ft 1.5in tall which won't fit in some key tunnels, thats also a high floor design

Spoiler: Specs

View attachment 37573

Can't fit into Chicago so that's a non-starter.

 

[Steve4031]

What about the panorama cars from Europe? Who made those?

 

[jis]

What about the panorama cars from Europe? Who made those?

Many are from Stadler.

 

[thefirewarde]

I can imagine a world where a Stadler/RM expedient fleet gets built to equip the Auto Train only - figure two full trainsets plus 12 or so spares? That would free up the Superliners for Chicago based LD service if the custom order goes substantially further south. Not ideal but better than delaying ten more years for any new equipment.

 

[railiner]

I doubt Amtrak would want to build more route-specific types of cars than necessary. Two (Eastern single level, and Western double deck), is bad enough. Don’t need to add a third type for only a limited use.
I suppose High-speed sets for NEC would be an acceptable exception…

 

[Steve4031]

Who designed the Eurocity cars and the Corail cars used in France?

 

[jis]

Who designed the Eurocity cars and the Corail cars used in France?

From the Wikipedia article on Corail:

The carriages were designed by the French industrial designer Roger Tallon and built by the Société Franco-Belge in Raismes, northern France,[1] and by Alstom's La Rochelle factory in Aytré.[2]

Eurocity is a class of trains not a piece of equipment, using varied equipment historically ranging from some equipment used in TEE trains, through Corail and DB, SBB and other generic intercity cars and all the way to TGV and ICE. So the question about who designed Eurocity cars is in my opinion not a well formed question (as mathematicians would say )

 

[Caesar La Rock]

I'll give this a shot. The Corail coaches are essentially SNCF's variation of the UIC Z type passenger cars. UIC meaning International Union of Railways for those curious and the Z is just a specification for carriages (what they call passenger cars in Europe) at the time the Corail passenger cars were introduced. The Z types were used on many international trains across Europe.

Z types are successors to the UIC-X type coaches, the first of which were built in 1952 by Deutsche Bundesbahn and were known as the um-wagens or m-wagens before the mid 1960s, when the UIC classified them as X types. There is a UIC-Y type, but those coaches were shorter at 80ft 3 inches long. X and Z types were 86ft 7 inches.

 

[Steve4031]

I agree with Jishnu that my question, which he described as poorly worded, was poorly worded.

That being said, What changes would be required for corail-type equipment to be used in the United States?

 

[west point]

IMO having RM type high cars on Auto Train has merit as it would increase capacity somewhat.

 

[jis]

IMO having RM type high cars on Auto Train has merit as it would increase capacity somewhat.

And since the RM cars are high floor, the negative is the same as for single level cars in so far as boarding/deboarding at low level platform stations go. But frankly, now that cars are coming equipped with built in electric wheel chair lifts deployable from the car I think the platform wars should be becoming more and more of a non-issue, both for single level and RM style high floor cars. The only remaining unresolvable issue will be that low floor cars cannot be operated from high platforms.

 

[thefirewarde]

And with the Auto Train, nothing else has to use those stations.

There is a downside in that off-season equipment can't be easily shared with the rest of the national network, but the upside is all the auto train equipment currently in use gets moved into the national network.

 

[UserNameRequired]

And since the RM cars are high floor, the negative is the same as for single level cars in so far as boarding/deboarding at low level platform stations go. But frankly, now that cars are coming equipped with built in electric wheel chair lifts deployable from the car I think the platform wars should be becoming more and more of a non-issue, both for single level and RM style high floor cars. The only remaining unresolvable issue will be that low floor cars cannot be operated from high platforms.

I did some searching without good hits, but could a RM type car be designed with triple levels and actually be usable? How low can a coach ceiling be and still be usable? Is there overall space vertically for 3 floors from the tracks to the roof of an RM type car? Hmm.

 

[JWM]

Amtrak's operation of the long haul trains is so dependent upon the contracting railroads. Until the STB gets through with their "SL" study, the same "guess our arrival time" will continue. The equipment issue is vexing to be sure. It seems the the two floor "Superliner" model will continue. What needs to be done is to get more Bedroom accommodations on the new equipment as well as a lounge car for sleeping car passengers. I remember fondly the "Pacific Parlour" cars on the "CS". When you are paying a premium, you deserve some lounge space not used by coach passengers.