Future ideas for service in South Eastern US

[blueman271]

So if they could come up with the equipment, a Superliner Capitol/Star would make so much more sense and be so much more efficient.

I thought Raleigh had high level platforms which would preclude using Superliners regardless of equipment availability.

 

[jis]

I thought Raleigh had high level platforms which would preclude using Superliners regardless of equipment availability.

Indeed, both Savannah and Jacksonville are also slated to get high level platforms, as there are no freight trains that run through the platform tracks there. This has to do with improved ADA compliance. So in general Superliners are a non-starter for the Atlantic Coast Service trains as far as I can tell.

 

[cocojacoby]

Indeed, both Savannah and Jacksonville are also slated to get high level platforms, as there are no freight trains that run through the platform tracks there. This has to do with improved ADA compliance. So in general Superliners are a non-starter for the Atlantic Coast Service trains as far as I can tell.

I suppose it's possible to have both like in Tampa.

 

[jis]

I suppose it's possible to have both like in Tampa.

Anything is possible. But my guess is that Superliners in Atlantic Coast service won't happen ion the next 10-15 years. And beyond that I personally won't care what happens

 

[cocojacoby]

Anything is possible. But my guess is that Superliners in Atlantic Coast service won't happen ion the next 10-15 years. And beyond that I personally won't care what happens

True but I think Amtrak's future long-distance image is going to be the new Superliners for many years to come and at this point if you can "future proof" infrastructure to allow their usage as much as possible throughout the system, it would be very beneficial. There is no question that this new equipment is going to be much more efficient, profitable, more ADA-compliant and more travel "experiential" than single-level stuff. Also someday there might be the desire to bring local or regional service into these stations and that equipment is definitely trending bi-level.

It is now important to build infrastructure that can satisfy the need for both high-level and low-level/freight if at all possible. It would be dumb to rule out this flexibility.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

It is now important to build infrastructure that can satisfy the need for both high-level and low-level/freight if at all possible. It would be dumb to rule out this flexibility.

Maybe but compliance with the ADA is long overdue. Since it was unlike to make the system full capable to handle the Superliner 3 cars. (Superliner in NYP) We get what we get.

Syracuse NY station is normally a high-level passenger train station. It however can see Superliner equipment occasionally. There is a spot for the baggage cars to swing onto a ramp to high-level platform. That turn spot is where Superliner equipment pick up and delivers passengers. The high level platform also see freight traffic (local) going past it.

 

[Palmland]

I wonder if the specs for the new high level equipment will require high and low level boarding. NJT tried to do it, but would not be suitable for Amtrak.

 

[jis]

I wonder if the specs for the new high level equipment will require high and low level boarding. NJT tried to do it, but would not be suitable for Amtrak.

Don't all Amtrak single level cars have both high and low level boarding? How is the NJT or SEPTA high and low level boarding any different? All of them use traps at the door which hide the stairs in high level setting.

Venture cars in addition to high level traps with automatically deployed gap filler and low level stairs with addition steps that extend out at stops, also come with easily deployable lifts at a few doors. I think that is what will become standard more or less.

 

[Palmland]

Don't all Amtrak single level cars have both high and low level boarding?

Sure, I was thinking level boarding, no traps required for high level cars (assuming Amtrak goes that route for some LD equipment). Once on board passengers could presumably use the in car elevator.

 

[jis]

Sure, I was thinking level boarding, no traps required for high level cars (assuming Amtrak goes that route for some LD equipment). Once on board passengers could presumably use the in car elevator.

I don’t think NJT had any such cars where you could level board from a low level platform.

 

[Palmland]

You are right, fuzzy memory! I was thinking of these.

 

[cirdan]

Anything is possible. But my guess is that Superliners in Atlantic Coast service won't happen ion the next 10-15 years. And beyond that I personally won't care what happens

That is, if there will still be any Superliners in 15 years.

 

[cocojacoby]

That is, if there will still be any Superliners in 15 years.

I think we can assume the new bi-levels will be called "Superliner" 3s.

 

[west point]

What is needed for Amtrak to meet the cruise market is for the Palmetto to be extended to MIA preferably on the FEC, That would allow for plenty of time to make same day connections to a cruise ship all the way from Melbourne to MIA, But that trip would need many sleepers and that isn't happening any time soon.

 

[blueman271]

What is needed for Amtrak to meet the cruise market is for the Palmetto to be extended to MIA preferably on the FEC, That would allow for plenty of time to make same day connections to a cruise ship all the way from Melbourne to MIA, But that trip would need many sleepers and that isn't happening any time soon.

Anyone that books a same day cruise connection, regardless of how they travel, is asking for trouble and setting themselves up for failure.

While there is probably a case for Amtrak to reinstate a third NYP-MIA train I doubt that cruise traffic is it. Furthermore, the time for Amtrak to negotiate running on the FEC has probably come and gone. There were rumors years ago, in the early 2000’s, that one of the Silvers was going to split in Jacksonville and run down the FEC. The Melbourne station was going to be near the airport and the airport listed Amtrak service as coming soon on its ground transportation page. This obviously never happened and I doubt FEC would let a competitor onto its tracks at this point.

 

[Palmland]

This obviously never happened and I doubt FEC would let a competitor onto its tracks at this point.

I don't think Amtrak would compete with Brightline if they were 'stops only to discharge passengers' West Palm and south. Where they would compete is for track time and would probably get a priority behind Brightline, Tri-iRail, and FEC. I know CSX/Amtrak ran an inspection train down the FEC when this was being discussed in the early 2000's, as noted. Having the Meteor on this route would have made a lot of sense with a bigger Star handling the Orlando, Tampa traffic. When the East Coast Champion ran via the FEC it took 5hrs 30min for JAX to West Palm with stops in St. Augustine, Daytona, Neew Smyrna, Titusville, Melbourne, Vero, Ft. Pierce, Stuart. Today's Meteor takes 7hrs 50min running via Orlando.

 

[zephyr17]

One thing is Amtrak cannot force their way onto the FEC using their statutory track access rights, because they don't have any on FEC.

 

[jis]

I don't think Amtrak would compete with Brightline if they were 'stops only to discharge passengers' West Palm and south. Where they would compete is for track time and would probably get a priority behind Brightline, Tri-iRail, and FEC. I know CSX/Amtrak ran an inspection train down the FEC when this was being discussed in the early 2000's, as noted. Having the Meteor on this route would have made a lot of sense with a bigger Star handling the Orlando, Tampa traffic. When the East Coast Champion ran via the FEC it took 5hrs 30min for JAX to West Palm with stops in St. Augustine, Daytona, New Smyrna, Titusville, Melbourne, Vero, Ft. Pierce, Stuart. Today's Meteor takes 7hrs 50min running via Orlando.

Someone has to find the many tens of millions of dollars to build the infill stations on the FECR route.

For several reasons Amtrak most likely need to get to its station in Hialeah or MIC at the Airport for which they will have to move over to the Tri-Rail route using the Northwoods Connection north of West Palm Beach, so in a manner of speaking they would not be competing with Brightline between Miami and West Palm Beach anyway. In any case I doubt that Brightline would care if a single train competed with them. They have and will continue to have a hopeless over demand problem for quite some time to come.

And yes, indeed Amtrak does not have any statutory right to have access to FECR, but that does not mean a suitable business arrangement cannot be struck up, though the obstacles are many to overcome.

 

[zephyr17]

And yes, indeed Amtrak does not any statutory right to have access to FECR, but that does not mean a suitable business arrangement cannot be struck up, though they obstacles are many to overcome.

Yes, of course, but if FEC doesn't want to host them, because of Brightline or whatever reason, they can say "no" and make it stick. That's something that a lot of host railroads wish they had.

 

[railiner]

Having the Meteor on this route would have made a lot of sense with a bigger Star handling the Orlando, Tampa traffic. When the East Coast Champion ran via the FEC it took 5hrs 30min for JAX to West Palm with stops in St. Augustine, Daytona, Neew Smyrna, Titusville, Melbourne, Vero, Ft. Pierce, Stuart. Today's Meteor takes 7hrs 50min running via Orlando

When the Orange Blossom Special ran its all-SAL route from Jacksonville, it stopped at Wildwood, Winter Haven, West Lake Wales, Avon Park, and Sebring, arriving in West Palm Beach in just 5 hours and 23 minutes…

 

[Palmland]

When the Orange Blossom Special ran its all-SAL route from Jacksonville, it stopped at Wildwood, Winter Haven, West Lake Wales, Avon Park, and Sebring, arriving in West Palm Beach in just 5 hours and 23 minutes…

Those were the days when railroads competed for passenger business. Amtrak seems to be motivated by cost control and hands off management of day to day operations.

 

[railiner]

When the Orange Blossom Special ran its all-SAL route from Jacksonville, it stopped at Wildwood, Winter Haven, West Lake Wales, Avon Park, and Sebring, arriving in West Palm Beach in just 5 hours and 23 minutes…

Just noticed that the June 1941 Silver Meteor ran Jacksonville to West Palm Beach in just 5 hours and 6 minutes!
And did it with three more stops (Starke, Waldo, and Ocala) than the OBS did in my 1953 comparison…

 

[west point]

IMO extend the Palmetto to MIA by way of FEC to Palm Beach. Just 2 new stations would be needed in St. Augustine and Daytona Beach. Use Brightline stations Cocoa on down.
Now here is where it gets interesting. The C of GA ran the Nancy Hanks from ATL leaving about 18:00 and arrived just before midnight. That train could be an extension of the proposed day train from Nashville - Chattanooga - ATL. If Amtrak ran this schedule. So, combine the trains at Savannah to MIA. Or in the future split at JAX to make one train to MIA and the other to TPA.

Passengers could transfer to train's destination between SAV <> JAX. At this time am ignoring the need for more sleepers.

 

[Palmland]

IMO extend the Palmetto to MIA by way of FEC to Palm Beach. Just 2 new stations would be needed in St. Augustine and Daytona Beach. Use Brightline stations Cocoa on down.

Because Amtrak moves at glacial speed, I suspect we'll see Jax- West Palm service via Brightline long before Amtrak gets around to it. But it's fun to talk about the 'what if's'. For us, the drive to Daytona is maybe 15 minutes longer than the drive to the Deland station.

And the extension of the Palmetto is still a good idea as it would require no additional infrastructure work and no additional equipment. Since the Palmetto crew now does a round trip FLO-SAV, only one additional crew start would be needed. An kearlier start from NYP would help, maybe combine with the Carolinian to WAS. In the early 90's when it did run to Jax it left NYP at 7:17am (about an hour later than now) and arrived Jax at 12;23am. Northbound it left at 7:00am and arrived NYP at 11:50pm. Savannah departure was 9:20am, also an hour or so later than at present. Of course it then morphed into the Silver Palm, but that would require additional equipment and operating expense.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

Because Amtrak moves at glacial speed, I suspect we'll see Jax- West Palm service via Brightline long before Amtrak gets around to it. But it's fun to talk about the 'what if's'. For us, the drive to Daytona is maybe 15 minutes longer than the drive to the Deland station.

And the extension of the Palmetto is still a good idea as it would require no additional infrastructure work and no additional equipment. Since the Palmetto crew now does a round trip FLO-SAV, only one additional crew start would be needed. An kearlier start from NYP would help, maybe combine with the Carolinian to WAS. In the early 90's when it did run to Jax it left NYP at 7:17am (about an hour later than now) and arrived Jax at 12;23am. Northbound it left at 7:00am and arrived NYP at 11:50pm. Savannah departure was 9:20am, also an hour or so later than at present. Of course it then morphed into the Silver Palm, but that would require additional equipment and operating expense.

NC needs a better Carolinian, not combining it with a potentially late Florida train. That's my squabble!

It will be a while. NC has put increased Carolinian frequency in the (late) 2030's bucket, awaiting the NC/VA high(er) speed S-line, which will be after the VA/DC Long Bridge completion (about 2030). The S-line is also tied to major improvements in Richmond, at least conceptually.

The Palmetto is an important train, and is close to being long distance. The mileage from Savannah to DC is 40% greater than Minneapolis to Chicago, for example. But the Palmetto and both the current Florida trains are absent from future planning between NC and Savannah. (Unless the new planning process changes that.) This map from the Southeast Corridor Commission's 2022 "technical" report touts the population and jobs along its planned routes. While it *only* shows the blobs on its planned routes, if it did show everything there would still not be any big blobs between Raleigh and Savannah.



On the other hand, it does show Savannah to Jacksonville is as significant as, say Greenville to half of Atlanta.

Two extra maps appear in the promotional introduction, covering notable corridors missing from the above map, and for which plans and/or service do exist: outlying NC/VA, and Florida generally. Here's Florida:



Probably back before Florida put all its chips in with Brightline (gradually becoming a government contractor, by the way!), it got Tier I approval for Naples.



Everything else on the list is "None to Date," so I omitted them. Examples: Charlotte - Asheville, and Richmond - Charlottesville.

One more thing, these analyses are all about places that are currently large and growing. The other way to look at rail is as bringing new growth to stagnant or declining areas. That's another conversation, but such areas tend to get political attention from state governments.