Future of Atlanta Amtrak Station

[xyzzy]

Also, the new station in Raleigh is being designed to handle SEHSR, and I believe the same will be said of the new station in Charlotte.

One can criticize the Richmond Staples Mill Road station, but the truth is that it handles many more passengers and trains than it was designed for.

 

[haolerider]

Like the new station in Miami, and the one in Minneapolis it seem they are build the station for yesterday trains, with little or no room for today trains (new cars ordered), and no cares about the trains of tomorrow..

What are today's trains and what do you envision as tomorrow's trains? How would the stations be designed differently than today? Airports have evolved as technology evolved. Yesterday's airports were not designed for jets, but they evolved? I guess I don't fully understand your concerns.

 

[battalion51]

I don't see why there would need to be any more "maintenance" than what exists now for Atlanta- Raleigh and New York service. Places like Carbondale, Charlotte, Bakersfield, and other medium-distance termini don't have any more than coach cleaners I think, which work on the train on the layover track.

That's true and encouraging, but I was thinking about the following schedules:

Train RGH CLT ATL

73 645A 955A 330P

76 826P 515P 1145A

So for example, train 73 leaving Raleigh on Monday will be at Atlanta for 20 hours or so and won't get back to Raleigh until Tuesday evening. Operating personnel might want to be able to do a little more than coach cleaning - on occasion.

jb

If you look at stations like SAV, CDL, SAB, and others there is Mechanical on duty at those locations. Any time you have a train laying over for more than a few hours you pretty much have to have Mechanical there. Not only do you need Mechanical to fix things on board the cars that may have broken en route, but you need them to do things like brake tests, required calendar inspections, and other ritual items. They won't be doing heavy maintenance on the cars like swapping wheels or anything like that, but the trains do need some basic TLC everyday to operate.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

The new Atlanta train station has several good ideas.

A) platform 1200 feet.

B) platform off the main track on its own track.

C) the ability to add/drop cars.

I am also 100% for this station. That said....

How many more cars can you add to the train before you run out of platform space? (Miami)

One platform one track, limits the number of trains, that can use the station. Is there space left to add a second track or platform and track? Or to add a second train do we need to find another location to service it then and have the train Deadhead in and out of the station. Can this station serve all trains going in and out of Atlanta Now and tomorrow. How are they drop and adding cars if there only one track, does the next train have to back down on the cars. Or does the switch engine have to take up the main to run around them.

My point is Miami's platform is long enough for one of the two trains today. Minneapolis has two track but lacks the leads so Amtrak will still have stop at St. Paul to drop and add cars.

Here in Atlanta a major city we have one track and one platform, that will limited what can be done at this station.

Plan BIG, you don't need to spend the money but be sure you can add to your physical plant.

Can we have one platform serve two tracks, with the ability of a locomotive to run around drop cars with out getting on the main. A place off the platform to store the cars on there layover. A station that is located where all future trains can call on it.

I know stop thinking, but before you spend money, lets have a good plan in place. For today trains and tomorrow trains. Stop using yesterday trains as you standard.

 

[jphjaxfl]

The new Atlanta train station has several good ideas.
A) platform 1200 feet.

B) platform off the main track on its own track.

C) the ability to add/drop cars.

I am also 100% for this station. That said....

How many more cars can you add to the train before you run out of platform space? (Miami)

One platform one track, limits the number of trains, that can use the station. Is there space left to add a second track or platform and track? Or to add a second train do we need to find another location to service it then and have the train Deadhead in and out of the station. Can this station serve all trains going in and out of Atlanta Now and tomorrow. How are they drop and adding cars if there only one track, does the next train have to back down on the cars. Or does the switch engine have to take up the main to run around them.

My point is Miami's platform is long enough for one of the two trains today. Minneapolis has two track but lacks the leads so Amtrak will still have stop at St. Paul to drop and add cars.

Here in Atlanta a major city we have one track and one platform, that will limited what can be done at this station.

Plan BIG, you don't need to spend the money but be sure you can add to your physical plant.

Can we have one platform serve two tracks, with the ability of a locomotive to run around drop cars with out getting on the main. A place off the platform to store the cars on there layover. A station that is located where all future trains can call on it.

I know stop thinking, but before you spend money, lets have a good plan in place. For today trains and tomorrow trains. Stop using yesterday trains as you standard.

I lived in Atlanta from 1996 through 2003. I moved there right before the 1996 Olympics. In the plans for the Olympics, they were proposing communter train service from Athens (where some of the Olympic venues were) to Atlanta on the old Seaboard Sliver Comet route and a new multimodal transportation center near 5 points, but no money was put up to do this. Here we are 17 years later and Amtrak is still using the Peachtree Street Suburban Station which only serves the Atlanta-Washington route of the former Southern, now Norfolk Southern Railway. In the ensuing years, there have been many proposals for improved train service and stations in Atlanta, but some in the Georgia legislature have been adamantly against any funds for rail transportation. Most people on the 5 million Atlanta metro area do not know that Amtrak actually has 2 trains that stop in Atlanta. Most Limo and taxi drivers have no idea where the Amtrak station is - they will take you to a MARTA station. I remember being in Atlanta in 1969 when Terminal and Union Station still existed. Everyone know where the Train Stations were. Until you change the attitude of more people in Atlanta and Georgia, anything new regarding passenger rail be it Amtrak or commuter rail will be just a plan and will never really happen. It doesn't matter whether than plan is big or small.....it will just be a dream!

 

[xyzzy]

I lived in Atlanta 1972-1986. In those years, awareness of the Crescent/Southern Crescent and remembrances of pre-Amtrak services were reasonably good. But the generation with those memories has largely passed away, and the population of metro Atlanta has doubled since then (with a lot of the newcomers not having any awareness of Amtrak in Atlanta), and most of the population growth has taken place in the outer suburbs for whom Brookwood station -- or for that matter, the proposed Atlantic station -- is inconvenient. Although the City of Atlanta has failed to drive a replacement for Brookwood, proposals for a suburban stop of the Crescent in the vicinity of Norcross or Duluth have not gotten traction, either. Gainesville is the only alternative.

 

[afigg]

How many more cars can you add to the train before you run out of platform space? (Miami)One platform one track, limits the number of trains, that can use the station. Is there space left to add a second track or platform and track? Or to add a second train do we need to find another location to service it then and have the train Deadhead in and out of the station. Can this station serve all trains going in and out of Atlanta Now and tomorrow. How are they drop and adding cars if there only one track, does the next train have to back down on the cars. Or does the switch engine have to take up the main to run around them.

My point is Miami's platform is long enough for one of the two trains today. Minneapolis has two track but lacks the leads so Amtrak will still have stop at St. Paul to drop and add cars.

Here in Atlanta a major city we have one track and one platform, that will limited what can be done at this station.

Plan BIG, you don't need to spend the money but be sure you can add to your physical plant.

The Miami Central Station is being built with 4 tracks and 2 long platforms. 1050' or 1100' long IIRC. There is an issue of extra long Amtrak Silvers blocking a road that came up after construction was well underway, but the MIC planners are looking to fix that the last news I saw on it. If you look at the plans for the Miami station, there is space reserved to add several more tracks and a platform. The Miami station primary purpose is to serve TriRail, but should have the capacity to support additional Amtrak trains if they come to pass.
As noted above, Atlanta has plans for commuter rail service, MARTA expansion, but those plans are struggling to move forward. Amtrak needs a new station for the Crescent and can't wait decades. So they are proposing to build a new station along the current route with a modest service expansion capacity. A valid approach given that Atlanta is nowhere close to building a true intermodal station with commuter or intercity rail. One which also could be co-located with a Greyhound and intercity bus terminal which is a plus.

If there is room, hopefully they will design the station layout to leave space for adding a second layover track which could be used for overnight storage of a corridor train. But there are no plans by Georgia to pay for a corridor service, so any discussions of Atlanta to Raleigh or ATL to WAS or ATL to SAV are purely speculative, if not fantasy. If Georgia decides someday that they want to build a regional rail system centered on Atlanta, thrn they can build a new much bigger station.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Miami thread the timetable of the project is to be noted.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/53564-hatchet-throwing-at-new-miami-station-platform-length-error/?fromsearch=1

 

[John Bobinyec]

So what's the status of the future Atlanat station relocation? Any news?

jb

 

[railiner]

History shows that northward trains from the south terminating at DC have disappointing ridership. In fact, cutting back northward trains to end in DC instead of NY was a favorite "train-off" tactic in the 1960s. If you ride Amtrak 80 these days, you'll see that passengers going to Baltimore and points beyond outnumber the passengers to Northern Virginia and DC. A northbound train that arrives DC at midnight has a connection to NY leaving DC at 3:15 am. Can't sell that.

Besides, NCDOT simply doesn't care about passenger traffic between Atlanta and NC. That's not where the primary demand lies for North Carolinians. The focus for NCDOT is two-fold: intrastate and Charlotte-Raleigh-DC-NY. Given that GDOT and SCDOT have little interest in passenger rail, it ain't gonna happen without help from NCDOT.

Perhaps SC would be more interested if the routing was from Columbia to Atlanta? But that would kill the Raleigh-Charlotte NC interest....oh well, you can't please everyone...

 

[MattW]

So what's the status of the future Atlanat station relocation? Any news?

jb

Actually yes, to an extent with the news coming just this morning! Clayton County this morning approved a referendum to join MARTA which will be voted on in November. MARTA has said that it is possible that Clayton would get Atlanta's first commuter rail line running from East Point to at least Jonesboro, but probably Lovejoy by the time it's all said and done. Norfolk Southern started complaining in recent weeks, but that's only because they were largely left out of the loop. I don't think there has ever been a recent commuter rail plan where the host railroad hasn't pitched a fit and still allowed it to proceed in the end. But this might be the push to get an MMPT going instead of just running the service up to East Point (what freight road wants commuter trains turning on their mainline?). There are still issues with getting Amtrak down to the MMPT, but this is a step in the right direction.

 

[Ind Ben]

Before the GOP gained control of the state there were plans for the Lovejoy line,and N.S.was on board.

 

[xyzzy]

Don't take the Clayton County referendum as a sure thing. The day after Clayton County approved a half-cent tax, the MARTA board rejected it. The plot thickens.

 

[neroden]

Minneapolis has two track but lacks the leads so Amtrak will still have stop at St. Paul to drop and add cars.

This seems a little confused. The Minneapolis station is not designed for Amtrak at all. The St. Paul Union Depot has two station tracks, a headshunt, and a siding; it can certainly be used to drop and add cars, and already has been for special occasions such as Boardman's visit. (There's actually room to install four more tracks, as well.)

It is not entirely clear to me why Amtrak has chosen to do routine switching at St Paul Midway, but I suspect it has something to do with being able to use switcher locomotives and crew from the Minnesota Commercial Railway, which would not be possible at Union Depot.

On the whole, most new station plans seem to have a lot of future-proofing. To get back to the topic of Atlanta, both of the Atlanta plans seemed fairly well future-proofed, with one exception: they need to be integrated with MARTA's subway in order to provide effective distribution of passengers.

 

[neroden]

Don't take the Clayton County referendum as a sure thing. The day after Clayton County approved a half-cent tax, the MARTA board rejected it. The plot thickens.

I looked this up. MARTA requested a one cent tax for bus & rail. Clayton County approved a half-cent tax with a ban on rail service. MARTA said "no way".

This makes sense. Buses are expensive to operate, and this would be a drain on MARTA's finances, where the bus-and-rail option would probably end up with Clayton County paying for itself (because rail is more efficient to operate).

 

[MattW]

Don't take the Clayton County referendum as a sure thing. The day after Clayton County approved a half-cent tax, the MARTA board rejected it. The plot thickens.

Actually the referendum is now a sure thing. The Board of Commissioners did approve only a 0.5% sales tax on Tuesday, but on Wednesday the MARTA board kicked it back and said 1% or no deal. The Board of Commissioners met again this morning in a special meeting and approved the 1% contract so the voters will indeed get to vote on the 1% MARTA tax in November.

Minneapolis has two track but lacks the leads so Amtrak will still have stop at St. Paul to drop and add cars.

This seems a little confused. The Minneapolis station is not designed for Amtrak at all. The St. Paul Union Depot has two station tracks, a headshunt, and a siding; it can certainly be used to drop and add cars, and already has been for special occasions such as Boardman's visit. (There's actually room to install four more tracks, as well.)

It is not entirely clear to me why Amtrak has chosen to do routine switching at St Paul Midway, but I suspect it has something to do with being able to use switcher locomotives and crew from the Minnesota Commercial Railway, which would not be possible at Union Depot.

On the whole, most new station plans seem to have a lot of future-proofing. To get back to the topic of Atlanta, both of the Atlanta plans seemed fairly well future-proofed, with one exception: they need to be integrated with MARTA's subway in order to provide effective distribution of passengers.

Only the Atlantic Station option wasn't integrated with the rail, the MMPT would be across the street and partially integrated with the Five Points MARTA Rail station if it was built.

Don't take the Clayton County referendum as a sure thing. The day after Clayton County approved a half-cent tax, the MARTA board rejected it. The plot thickens.

I looked this up. MARTA requested a one cent tax for bus & rail. Clayton County approved a half-cent tax with a ban on rail service. MARTA said "no way".

This makes sense. Buses are expensive to operate, and this would be a drain on MARTA's finances, where the bus-and-rail option would probably end up with Clayton County paying for itself (because rail is more efficient to operate).

If the referendum passes in November, the following is supposed to happen:

In March, 2015, Clayton will get its initial bus service, with full bus service to follow in another year.

Only half of the tax money collected will be spent on the buses. The other half (0.5%) will be held in escrow to be used exclusively for a Clayton County rail system whether it be commuter or heavy rail. This money can not be used for any project outside Clayton except of course for the parts of a Clayton project required to be built outside Clayton. So yes, a commuter rail line that goes Atlanta-East Point-Hapeville-Clayton could still get funding for the Atlanta-Hapeville segment since the entire line is for Clayton.

 

[neroden]

Thanks for the extensive information, MattW.

 

[John Bobinyec]

We happened to be in Atlanta on Saturday. 7/5, and #20 happened to be on-time. So we stopped in to the Atlanta station to watch what goes on there, since I had never been there before. The word I would choose to describe the situation was "overwhelmed". It's a relatively small station. There were so many people in there that there was hardly any room to comfortably stand - let alone find a place to sit. Since there is little available space to sit and wait, folks arrive just before train time. There were many people standing in line to check bags or talk to the ticket agents. Pretty soon an announcement went out that baggage check-in for that day's Crescent was over, but bags could still be checked in - but would go out on the following day's train. Of course there is an extreme shortage of parking.

I would say that for one of the major capital cities in the United States, with that much patronage - the situation is intolerable. The city officials at the very least, should be embarrassed by what's going on there.

jb

 

[xyzzy]

Remember, the station was built as a convenience stop for the wealthy who lived on what was the northern fringe of Atlanta at the time. Most passengers still used Terminal Station downtown. But in 1970, when Terminal Station had become underutilized and expensive to maintain -- while sitting on property that was valuable for redevelopment -- Southern moved passenger operations to the comparatively tiny Brookwood, with its steps down to track level (or one elevator). The move would have been awkward under any circumstances, but the population of metro Atlanta grew from 1.8M in 1970 to 5.7M in 2010 while the number of passenger trains fell to only one (concentrating all passengers into one morning and one evening rush).

 

[neroden]

Unfortunately, intercity train service seems to be the last thing on the mind of the Georigia government, and pretty far from the thoughts of the Atlanta government too.

This is not entirely surprising given how awful the state of local transportation is in Atlanta.

 

[cirdan]

Like the new station in Miami, and the one in Minneapolis it seem they are build the station for yesterday trains, with little or no room for today trains (new cars ordered), and no cares about the trains of tomorrow.

.

What are today's trains and what do you envision as tomorrow's trains? How would the stations be designed differently than today?Airports have evolved as technology evolved. Yesterday's airports were not designed for jets, but they evolved? I guess I don't fully understand your concerns.

I guess that even if there are no credible plans in the pipeline right now, with stations having lifetimes of 50 years or more, new stations being built today need to take into account long term development plans. These might include commuter rail, corridor services and lots of other things. That in turns means an adequate number of platforms is necessary if you don't want there to be a bottleneck. You don't need to build those platforms from day one, but there should be space you can credibly expand into, even if it is being used for another purpose now. Is that the case with this proposal?

 

[xyzzy]

Use Raleigh as an example. NCDOT and the City have tried to come up with a master plan that would accommodate today's trains, plus another Piedmont frequency, plus commuter service, plus SEHSR. Add all of those, and the project becomes very large. Of course, all of it doesn't have to be built at once -- but what the architects and engineers know is that if the design must take the endgame into consideration, then the price tag for the first phase is considerably higher than it would otherwise be. NCDOT and the City want to maintain the long-term vision but have struggled to keep the first phase affordable, even though everyone recognizes that the current Amtrak station is intolerable. Point is, you quickly reach an impasse between long-term vision and short-term reality.

 

[jis]

Conversely, the whole steel wheel on steel rail thing might suddenly go poof over the next 50 years too. Unless current projections show there to be a need in the next 20-30 years for more capacity of a sort, it is better to wait until such projected needs appear.

So in certain cities there is definite justification for such (New York, Chicago, Philly, Washington, Boston, LA, San Diego, Portland, Seattle and such come to mind), while at others not so much. I really don't know what to make of Atlanta. I would probably not plan on building anything in the scale of say the proposed Penn Station expansion in New York or even the planned revamp of Philly or Washington or Boston station in places like Atlanta or even Minneapolis/St. Paul yet. Maybe someday.

Real Estate in downtown station locations is expensive. Unless there is a reasonable way to build the air rights above the proposed station area, no one is going to wait around not exploiting the value of the real estate hoping some day to build station platforms.

 

[neroden]

Conversely, the whole steel wheel on steel rail thing might suddenly go poof over the next 50 years too.

Well, humanity might go extinct due to global warming and ocean acidification wrecking our food chains over the next 50 years too...
...and that seems more likely that finding a replacement which is better than conical wheels on steel rails.

Conical wheels on a pair of steel rails have passive stabilization, which keeps the trains on the tracks. No other known moving system has better passive stabilization, and it's unlikely that any will ever be discovered.

The passive stabilization allows for extremely long trains to run without fishtailing. This allows for the highest volumes to be transported. This is why rail is better for high-volume transportation than anything else.

It isn't going to become obsolete; the fundamental technical strength is way too strong.

Cities will dry up and blow away before we find a better alternative to trains for high-volume transportation. That's what you should consider when deciding how much to future-proof your station -- is your city going to lose population like Buffalo did, causing Buffalo Central Terminal to be overkill? Don't worry about alternatives to train travel; they're never going to seriously compete with trains for high-volume traffic.

 

[jis]

All of those are important factors to consider. That is what makes Atlanta intriguing, since its population is likely to grow and its transportation needs will too. but its political inclinations appear to be pointed more towards self destruction. So what do you do?

OTOH Minneapolis/St. Paul, in spite of all good intentions is unlikely to see a population growth like in the Sun Belt. But is more inclined towards rail as it stands, so it is probably a more fertile ground for some good future planning.

BTW, that sentence that neorden responded to was actually set up as a bait for him and he did take it.