Gateway Project/New York Penn Station capacity improvement

[Andrew]

Without Block 780, how many more trains during Rush Hours could NJ Transit operate?

 

[Andrew]

The current fire code apparently requires an escape tunnel to be available for such long tunnels. Ergo there is no way to be fire code compliant with a single tunnel anyway. But all this does sell more Railway Age, so why not?

It is interesting when even third world countries that are digging long tunnels are doing so with an escape tunnel, while the richest country in the world appears to be trying to penny pinch itself into building a less safe setup than what third world countries are willing to afford.

Present fire codes do not allow just one bore. New tunnel construction requires at least one cross connetion with another tube about every 800 feet. Gateway must be two tubes. Of course present North river tubes are grandfathered. Check all the light rail tunneling, SEA, LAX

maybe the Coronavirus will convince USDOT to change these regulations so that only one tube can be built?

https://commercialobserver.com/2020/03/georgetown-plans-1b-office-building-near-hudson-yards/
Also, a new building is going up where a Gateway Tunnel Ventilation facility is proposed. What happens if the Gateway Alignment in Manhattan can not be preserved?

 

[John Bobinyec]

maybe the Coronavirus will convince USDOT to change these regulations so that only one tube can be built?

Why would it?

jb

 

[Andrew]

If transportation agencies take a large hit in revenue, they would not has as much money to build large infrastructure projects. Thus, maybe only one tube can be built at a time instead of 2?

 

[west point]

The minimum number of tubes is 2 for fire and rescue reasons.,

 

[MARC Rider]

If transportation agencies take a large hit in revenue, they would not has as much money to build large infrastructure projects. Thus, maybe only one tube can be built at a time instead of 2?

I don't think this project is being paid out of ticket revenues, so this brief partial shutdown is not really relevant to the funding of the project.

 

[Andrew]

The minimum number of tubes is 2 for fire and rescue reasons.,

Do you think that is the right thing to do?

Also, if fire and rescue reasons require two tubes, why is the Empire Tunnel only single tracked?

 

[railiner]

Do you think that is the right thing to do?

Also, if fire and rescue reasons require two tubes, why is the Empire Tunnel only single tracked?

Not sure, but the Empire Tunnel is not an underwater tunnel, and not very long, either. Again, not sure, but there may even be emergency exits along it...

 

[niemi24s]

. . . why is the Empire Tunnel only single tracked?

Do you mean the Cascade Tunnel? Or some North-South tunnel in Manhattan?

 

[jis]

Do you think that is the right thing to do?

Yes.

Also, if fire and rescue reasons require two tubes, why is the Empire Tunnel only single tracked?

Empire tunnel is not under water. It has frequent fire exits.

Why on earth do you want safety regulations to be relaxed to satisfy your silly whims?

 

[jiml]

Yes.

Empire tunnel is not under water. It has frequent fire exits.

Why on earth do you want safety regulations to be relaxed to satisfy your silly whims?

There's video shot from trains in that tunnel and both exits and daylight are frequently visible.

 

[west point]

I believe that there is an international standard that there needs to be an emergency egress of about every 800 feet . The "Empire" tunnel is not really a tunnel. it has multiple opening about every 100 feet as I recall.

 

[Ziv]

Playing the devils advocate here, would it be possible to initially build just a single additional tube using one of the existing tubes as the escape tunnel?

The minimum number of tubes is 2 for fire and rescue reasons.,

 

[jis]

Playing the devils advocate here, would it be possible to initially build just a single additional tube using one of the existing tubes as the escape tunnel?

No. The alignment of the new tubes are very different. The Army Corp of Engineers would not allow a tunnel to be dug so close to the base of the river bed as the original ones. The new tunnels go deeper and therefore are longer, so as to stay within grade limitations.

 

[Ziv]

Drat. Figured that it wouldn't be that easy, but I was curious. Thanks, Jis.

No. The alignment of the new tubes are very different. The Army Corp of Engineers would not allow a tunnel to be dug so close to the base of the river bed as the original ones. The new tunnels go deeper and therefore are longer, so as to stay within grade limitations.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

I think it's actually more likely to happen if we get a massive infrastructure bill to make work after all this is over.

 

[railiner]

I think it's actually more likely to happen if we get a massive infrastructure bill to make work after all this is over.

Especially if "Amtrak Joe" is elected....

 

[Andrew]

So you think only 1 tube may get built after all?

(Maybe one tube can get built and then a second tube with cross-passages can be built in a future time).

 

[John Bobinyec]

So you think only 1 tube may get built after all?

(Maybe one tube can get built and then a second tube with cross-passages can be built in a future time).

Look at post 439.

From that it seems that if only one tube is built, it will sit dormant until such time as additional tubes are built.

jb

 

[Andrew]

Would it be a lot cheaper to build one new tube (for a total of three tunnels) for more trains and a 4th, smaller tube for emergency vehicles?

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

I don't think anything would stop a bigger tube from being built that could be double-tracked.

BTW was the Empire "Tunnel" (it's really more of an urban snow shed, but with a park atop, isn't it?) originally double-tracked?

 

[west point]

Once again the Gateway must have 2 tubes. That is evacuation from a problem in one tube allowing passengers and crew to go thru the cross tunnel emergency passageway to other bore. Those passage ways are now about 800 feet apart. That is the new international standard and even various light rail lines have the same or a stairway to surface if the surface is not too far up from bore.
So a double track bore under the Hudson will still need emergency egress passageways..

 

[Andrew]

Once again the Gateway must have 2 tubes. That is evacuation from a problem in one tube allowing passengers and crew to go thru the cross tunnel emergency passageway to other bore. Those passage ways are now about 800 feet apart. That is the new international standard and even various light rail lines have the same or a stairway to surface if the surface is not too far up from bore.
So a double track bore under the Hudson will still need emergency egress passageways..

Do you think the Coronavirus will end up delaying Gateway construction by a long time?

 

[railiner]

BTW was the Empire "Tunnel" (it's really more of an urban snow shed, but with a park atop, isn't it?) originally double-tracked?

You're describing different sections of the Empire Line...a single bore tunnel was constructed to go down, below the North River tunnel approaches, to connect to the former NYC west side freight line. The single bore tunnel only contains one track, and is relatively short. It then opens up into what you describe as an 'urban snow shed', really a depressed cut below street level, crossing under crosstown streets and buildings, parks, etc built above it. Sometimes you can see the river and daylight, other times not, for several miles until it eventually reaches the Metro North line at Spuyten Duyvil.

 

[west point]

Do you think the Coronavirus will end up delaying Gateway construction by a long time?

Probably coved=19 will not change anything before Jan 1. Mitch will do everything to remove any funds for new bores and Portal. Even if funds are appropriated Mitch's wife Chao will delay it until at least Jan 20. Now for the election . If trump re elected then who knows. If Senate goes D then after Jan 1 some funds can be appropriated before Jan 20
If Senate stays R then mitch will continue trying to eliminate any funds.
If Biden gets elected and Mitch keeps Senate R then going to be delays.
If Biden elected and both House and Senate go D then expect work to start about April 2021.