Gateway Project/New York Penn Station capacity improvement

[jis]

NJT has entered into FFGA (Full Funding Grant Agreement) with the FTA for funding construction of the Portal North Bridge.

https://nj.gov/governor/news/news/562020/approved/20201209a.shtml
So now at least that part is in its home stretch. It has been a long struggle.

Now onto the North River Tubes, Portal South, Sawtooth Bridge and eventually NYP South to complete the full four track railroad from NYP to NWK.

 

[west point]

IMHO the Portal south bridge is going to be a long time to even start. Hopefully sometime after the new tunnel bores are done and the old tunnel bores rehabbed ? This poster hopes the old Portal bridge is kept in service but from all indications it will be demolished one the Portal north bridge is complete. My thinking is that 4 tracks from Sawtooth - Newark Penn station would make that portion more fluid because of the constraint of New York direct service.

 

[Andrew]

Congress will review the FFGA over the next 30 days.

Would it be cheaper and faster to run the new Hudson Tunnels via Hoboken instead?

NJT has entered into FFGA (Full Funding Grant Agreement) with the FTA for funding construction of the Portal North Bridge.

https://nj.gov/governor/news/news/562020/approved/20201209a.shtml
So now at least that part is in its home stretch. It has been a long struggle.

Now onto the North River Tubes, Portal South, Sawtooth Bridge and eventually NYP South to complete the full four track railroad from NYP to NWK.

 

[jis]

Would it be cheaper and faster to run the new Hudson Tunnels via Hoboken instead?

No. It is already running under North Hoboken. It will have to be a longer tunnel to go under Hoboken Station so it will be more expensive and take longer.

 

[Andrew]

No. It is already running under North Hoboken. It will have to be a longer tunnel to go under Hoboken Station so it will be more expensive and take longer.

I have read reports on potentially having the M and E trains not connect to the NEC at Swift Interlocking; rather, they could run through the Bergen Tunnels and branch off into new cross-hudson tunnels just west of Hoboken Station.

(This would actually reduce construction of new total track).

Does having NJ Transit revently move the Portal Bridge to a FFGA mean that it is likely that the Hudson Tunnel Project will proceed under a Biden Administration?

 

[jis]

I have read reports on potentially having the M and E trains not connect to the NEC at Swift Interlocking; rather, they could run through the Bergen Tunnels and branch off into new cross-hudson tunnels just west of Hoboken Station.

That is from A few rail advocates/enthusiasts. They control exactly $0 of budget and are not in any decision making position. They also did not want Portal South and wanted to build a single track new tunnel. None of that is happening.

 

[Andrew]

Does the recent report about repairing the Hudson Tunnels during weeknight and weekends make it less likely that the new tubes will get built?

 

[Andrew]

NJT has entered into FFGA (Full Funding Grant Agreement) with the FTA for funding construction of the Portal North Bridge.

https://nj.gov/governor/news/news/562020/approved/20201209a.shtml
So now at least that part is in its home stretch. It has been a long struggle.

Now onto the North River Tubes, Portal South, Sawtooth Bridge and eventually NYP South to complete the full four track railroad from NYP to NWK.

What happens if the financial plan for the new hudson tunnels is rated low in the upcoming report that is due out in February?

 

[jis]

What happens if the financial plan for the new hudson tunnels is rated low in the upcoming report that is due out in February?

You will know in another 8 weeks If there is political will there are many ways around that should it come to pass.

It will not affect this FFGA.

 

[Andrew]

You will know in another 8 weeks If there is political will there are many ways around that should it come to pass.

It will not affect this FFGA.

I was wondering if it is possible that new hudson tunnels never get built.

 

[jis]

I was wondering if it is possible that new hudson tunnels never get built.

You are getting a bit tiresome. Wait for events to unfold. No one can answer your vague speculative questions. However if it will make you feel better, I am happy to assure you that they will be built sooner or later.

 

[Andrew]

You are getting a bit tiresome. Wait for events to unfold. No one can answer your vague speculative questions. However if it will make you fell better, I am happy to assure you that they will be built sooner or later.

Do you still believe that extending the 7 train to Secaucus would have been a better investment than Gateway?

And regarding Gateway, do you folks think that the engineers on this project made the right decision regarding choosing an appropriate alignment?

 

[jis]

Governor Cuomo is now advocating for the NYPS South extension. This is very good news because that sort of support will be necessary acquire the so called Block 780 to make this happen. It will also have real effect in reducing congestion in NYPS, unlike Moynihan, which is merely cosmetic change. This involves basically changing things in the A interlocking area to smooth out flows to the current station and to these new tracks.

https://www.radio.com/wcbs880/news/local/cuomo-plans-to-add-8-underground-tracks-to-penn-station/

 

[Bob Dylan]

Governor Cuomo is now advocating for the NYPS South extension. This is very good news because that sort of support will be necessary acquire the so called Block 780 to make this happen. It will also have real effect in reducing congestion in NYPS, unlike Moynihan, which is merely cosmetic change. This involves basically changing things in the A interlocking area to smooth out flows to the current station and to these new tracks.

https://www.radio.com/wcbs880/news/local/cuomo-plans-to-add-8-underground-tracks-to-penn-station/

Good News, but of course since it's New York, the Costs will make Bostons "Big Dig" seem like a Bargain! Lol

 

[Steve4031]

Governor Cuomo is now advocating for the NYPS South extension. This is very good news because that sort of support will be necessary acquire the so called Block 780 to make this happen. It will also have real effect in reducing congestion in NYPS, unlike Moynihan, which is merely cosmetic change. This involves basically changing things in the A interlocking area to smooth out flows to the current station and to these new tracks.

https://www.radio.com/wcbs880/news/local/cuomo-plans-to-add-8-underground-tracks-to-penn-station/

This is great news IMHO. If I am reading this correctly 8 new tracks would connect to the NEC going west/south to Newark and the Empire corridor going north towards Albany. Is A interlocking the area that allows trains to access the empire corridor?

 

[Andrew]

Governor Cuomo is now advocating for the NYPS South extension. This is very good news because that sort of support will be necessary acquire the so called Block 780 to make this happen. It will also have real effect in reducing congestion in NYPS, unlike Moynihan, which is merely cosmetic change. This involves basically changing things in the A interlocking area to smooth out flows to the current station and to these new tracks.

https://www.radio.com/wcbs880/news/local/cuomo-plans-to-add-8-underground-tracks-to-penn-station/

I sometimes wonder if it would make sense to build tunnels from near Hoboken Terminal to 14th street or perhaps Houston Street in Manhattan instead of building new trans-hudson tunnels into Penn Station? (While I am a huge supporter of The Gateway Project, I am concerned that not enough consideration is being given to reducing demand into Penn Station).

 

[MARC Rider]

Good News, but of course since it's New York, the Costs will make Bostons "Big Dig" seem like a Bargain! Lol

You know, everybody seems to enjoy trashing the Big Dig as a waste of money, but I've been using it (OK, once a year, I drive through it) for the past 15 years, and I even remember trying to drive through downtown Boston on the old elevated freeway as a kid during some family trips. I've found it to be a very useful and functional. Certainly, the elimination of that ugly, disruptive elevated highway did wonders for downtown Boston. I expect that current real estate values in downtown Boston are much, much higher that they would have been had the Big Dig not been dug. Which means that the cumulative property tax revenues for Boston over that past 20 years have been much higher than if the project hadn't gone forward. I suspect that the project, over the long term, has been a net fiscal gain for the region.

Yes, it undoubtedly ended up costing more than the advertised cost, and there was some corruption and incompetence involved in the implementation. Also, it was foolish not to make provision for a future rail tunnel to connect North and South Station. But in the balance, I would say that the project was a net plus for Boston and the surrounding region.

This tendency to trash large, government funded infrastructure projects has a long history in the United States, dating from the dawn of the Republic. There was a faction in the country, consisting mostly of slaveholding plantation owners with tidewater access (Hi there, George Washington!) and coastal merchants who opposed spending public money on "internal improvements" like roads and canals (and later railroads) because their businesses had no need for these internal improvements, and, indeed such improvements opened up farmland and trade opportunities that competed with the plantations and coastal merchants. The building of the National Road (funded by the Federal government) and the Erie Canal (funded by the State of New York) were highly controversial in their day. I'm not sure how controversial the Pennsylvania Main Line of Public Works, a state-run combination canal-railroad was, but, in the end it was absorbed by a private company (the Pennsylvania Railroad), and indeed, nearly all American railroads were funded by private capital.

The attitude of private capital was summed up by Cornelius Vanderbilt (New York Central Railroad) as "the public be damned." I suspect the vested interests didn't see any benefit to public funding, because they could fund it themselves, and then enjoy their monopoly position. Of course, as we all know, if we hadn't paid for those internal improvements, our country would still be 13 dinky little states clinging to the Atlantic seaboard. On the other hand, all those private railroads gave us was the Robber Barons, monopolies, and the partial dismantling of our railroads in the mid 20th century. It should be noted that every other type of transportation infrastructure in this country, such as roads, waterways, ports, and the air traffic system was developed by the public sector, and I'm sure there's been a lot of corruption and waste on these projects over the years.

 

[jis]

This is great news IMHO. If I am reading this correctly 8 new tracks would connect to the NEC going west/south to Newark and the Empire corridor going north towards Albany. Is A interlocking the area that allows trains to access the empire corridor?

It controls the western throat of Penn Station from the tunnel portals to the platform tracks.

 

[John Santos]

"I suspect the vested interests didn't see any benefit to public funding ..." No benefit to public funding? They saw HUGE benefits to public funding, especially when they got to own and control and profit from the railroads after the public paid all the up-front costs and took all the risk. See Credit Mobilier and the 19th century railroad land grants.

 

[MARC Rider]

"I suspect the vested interests didn't see any benefit to public funding ..." No benefit to public funding? They saw HUGE benefits to public funding, especially when they got to own and control and profit from the railroads after the public paid all the up-front costs and took all the risk. See Credit Mobilier and the 19th century railroad land grants.

Oh, yes, Credit Mobilier, how could I have forgotten that? And the land grants, which I guess were pretty profitable. But didn't that just apply to the transcontinental railroad? Most of the other railroads were privately funded. And, of course the Robber Barons who didn't get the goodies from the Credit Mobiler scheme and the land grants must have been pretty ticked off.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Most of the other railroads were privately funded.

Mmmm.... not sure about that. Debatable for sure.

 

[Bob Dylan]

You know, everybody seems to enjoy trashing the Big Dig as a waste of money, but I've been using it (OK, once a year, I drive through it) for the past 15 years, and I even remember trying to drive through downtown Boston on the old elevated freeway as a kid during some family trips. I've found it to be a very useful and functional. Certainly, the elimination of that ugly, disruptive elevated highway did wonders for downtown Boston. I expect that current real estate values in downtown Boston are much, much higher that they would have been had the Big Dig not been dug. Which means that the cumulative property tax revenues for Boston over that past 20 years have been much higher than if the project hadn't gone forward. I suspect that the project, over the long term, has been a net fiscal gain for the region.

Yes, it undoubtedly ended up costing more than the advertised cost, and there was some corruption and incompetence involved in the implementation. Also, it was foolish not to make provision for a future rail tunnel to connect North and South Station. But in the balance, I would say that the project was a net plus for Boston and the surrounding region.

This tendency to trash large, government funded infrastructure projects has a long history in the United States, dating from the dawn of the Republic. There was a faction in the country, consisting mostly of slaveholding plantation owners with tidewater access (Hi there, George Washington!) and coastal merchants who opposed spending public money on "internal improvements" like roads and canals (and later railroads) because their businesses had no need for these internal improvements, and, indeed such improvements opened up farmland and trade opportunities that competed with the plantations and coastal merchants. The building of the National Road (funded by the Federal government) and the Erie Canal (funded by the State of New York) were highly controversial in their day. I'm not sure how controversial the Pennsylvania Main Line of Public Works, a state-run combination canal-railroad was, but, in the end it was absorbed by a private company (the Pennsylvania Railroad), and indeed, nearly all American railroads were funded by private capital.

The attitude of private capital was summed up by Cornelius Vanderbilt (New York Central Railroad) as "the public be damned." I suspect the vested interests didn't see any benefit to public funding, because they could fund it themselves, and then enjoy their monopoly position. Of course, as we all know, if we hadn't paid for those internal improvements, our country would still be 13 dinky little states clinging to the Atlantic seaboard. On the other hand, all those private railroads gave us was the Robber Barons, monopolies, and the partial dismantling of our railroads in the mid 20th century. It should be noted that every other type of transportation infrastructure in this country, such as roads, waterways, ports, and the air traffic system was developed by the public sector, and I'm sure there's been a lot of corruption and waste on these projects over the years.

Good info, thanks!( I agree with you,as a Career Government Employee, I just like to point out Government Corruption which is wider spread than most Americans realize)

 

[MARC Rider]

For those who don't know anything about the Credit Mobilier scandal, here's the Wikipeida page:

Crédit Mobilier scandal - Wikipedia

In short, There was a lot of opposition to the Pacific Railroad Act, especially given that at the time they built the the railroad, there was no prospect that it could be a viable business enterprise. After all, there was virtually no commercial activity, no passengers, no freight going on in the 1700 miles between Omaha and California. Even the government funded Pony Express went out of business after they installed a transcontinental telegraph. In other words, the opponents called it a "train to nowhere." The deal was that the Union Pacific Railroad got loans form the Feds, plus land grants. The whole package was worth about $100 million.

On top of that, two crooked executives of the Union Pacific Railroad (one of them was named George Francis Train -- you can't make this stuff up) set up a construction company called Credit Mobilier of America (which was not the same as a large French bank of almost the same name). What they did was have Credit Mobilier overbill Union Pacific. It cost Credit Mobilier about $50 million too build the railroad, but they billed Union Pacific about $94 million. The difference was pocketed by the crooked executives. There were also congressmen and senators involved, one of whom was apparently in on the deal, the others were merely bribees. Of course, once it all came out, the Union Pacific and the outside investors were nearly bankrupted. I don't think any of the congressmen or senators went to jail, and neither did the two crooked Union Pacific masterminds who set up Credit Mobilier.

It sure was crooked, but, of course, the naysayers about the transcontinental railroad were wrong; it did generate business, and in fact, many more were built. It might have been built more efficiently and rationally (and cheaply) if the government had just built it themselves and cut out the Union Pacific middleman (and contracted with non-crooked construction companies.)

 

[Andrew]

It controls the western throat of Penn Station from the tunnel portals to the platform tracks.

Does anyone think it might be a good idea to build new trans-hudson tunnels to a different part of Manhattan--instead of stuffing all trains from New Jersey into Penn Station?

 

[railiner]

While having as many transportation lines in one place has its merits, for easy transfer and connections, there may be a point where it is too much. I would assume that the PATH tunnels may also have to be replaced someday (they are even older than the PRR tunnels). Perhaps an alternative would be a new tunnel from Hoboken, or Jersey City to the World Trade Center area, to accommodate NJT trains rather than PATH, allowing one seat rides for most. Having more than one line is also helpful if one or the other has a major disruption. Perhaps the LIRR Brooklyn line could also be extended into a new WTC area terminal, shared with NJT. Even Amtrak might route a few regional's that way...