Gateway Project/New York Penn Station capacity improvement

[BlackDiamond]

The Infrastructure bill finally passed the House last night. I assume it has money in it for Gateway as part of the 66 Billion for rail? As Speaker Pelosi would say, we have to pass the bill to find out what is in it.

 

[jis]

You can find some details here. It is way more than just the money for Amtrak...

https://railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/blog/iija-victory-letter/

 

[DSS&A]

US Army Corps issued their permit today that will allow the Gateway Tunnels to be built and the existing tunnels rehabilitated.

https://www.rtands.com/freight/finally-hudson-tunnel-project-receives-green-light-for-construction/

 

[jis]

The contract is now signed for the construction of the Portal North Bridge. Construction begins this year and runs to 2027.

https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/skanska-jv-signs-deal-for-15bn-us-bridge

 

[joelkfla]

The contract is now signed for the construction of the Portal North Bridge. Construction begins this year and runs to 2027.

https://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/skanska-jv-signs-deal-for-15bn-us-bridge

Why does it take 5 years?

 

[jis]

Why does it take 5 years?

 

[Bob Dylan]

Why does it take 5 years?

Be surprised if it's finished On Time and on Budget!

 

[neroden]

Why does it take 5 years?

Bridges, especially over water, take TIME. Some very short bridges over a flood control channel in Ithaca took three years each (they were all done in parallel).

First you often have to put something similar to sandbags down and dewater around where the piers or endwalls are going to go. Big tedious thing. Sometimes you can jackhammer them in without removing the water, which is also a big tedious slow thing. Then you have to dig the holes for the piers or endwalls, and put in the foundation (piers, slurry walls, secant walls, whatever it is); pour the concrete...

Then, at least in certain types of soil, you may have to let the foundation SETTLE for a year (that was actually an explicit part of the construction in these bridges in Ithaca)!

Then you can build the pier or endwall caps (and wait for that concrete to cure).

And then put in the structural spans, and then the deck and the road or railroad or whatever.

And this is a long bridge with a lot of piers. They don't generally do the piers all at once because it's a specialist job and they simply don't have the equipment or specialized labor to do a whole lot in parallel; I'd expect one team working on the in-water piers (basically one at a time), one team for the west-side approach piers (again one at a time), and one for the east-side approach piers (again one at a time). (Three teams because the soil situation is different in the three cases, so it'll be using three different techniques, so three different specialist teams.)

Five years is normal. This is working in a navigable channel and in wetlands, with various restrictions. The entire first year is going to be setting up logistics for moving the equipment in and out without environmental damage and without navigation interference, clearing and dewatering locations around the piers, and foundation work. The second year is probably still going to be all piers and earthmoving. In the third year you may start to see more than half-finished pillars sticking out of the ground or the water. Once all the pillars are up, then the rest will go fairly quickly.


If you want to get a sense of the pacing on this stuff, watch the Roaming Railfan's videos on bridge construction for Brightline. They have the advantage that the endwalls are often already there and can be reused.

It may be counterintuitive, but expect to see construction equipment, barges, cranes, and nothing much above ground level for the first year's construction; nothing but poles sticking out of the land and water for the second year; and then probably in the fourth year, it'll start looking like a bridge practically overnight as the spans go in.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

There's also material and labor shortages to contend with at the moment - that's making everything more expensive and delayed.

 

[jis]

NJDOT working on how to fund its part of the Gateway Tunnel....

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/ne...-tunnel-loan/ar-AASWLhZ?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

 

[jiml]

Rating upgrade clears way for $10B Hudson tunnel project (msn.com)

 

[west point]

NJDOT working on how to fund its part of the Gateway Tunnel....

https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/ne...-tunnel-loan/ar-AASWLhZ?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

Oh wow!--- $81M = 10 years 810M less than 1-1/10 of cost.

 

[jis]

Oh wow!--- $81M = 10 years 810M less than 1-1/10 of cost.

The total cost is around $12-$13 Billion.

According to a very good article by Streetsblog the net proportions of funding responsibility are:

FTA 39.2%
PANYNJ 24.5%
NY 14.3%
Amtrak 11.4%
NJ 10.6%

NJ is a little lower because it is funding the Portal Bridge non federal part entirely by itself via bonds.

These number are over a year old as of the date of this post and will get revised upward when the project begins and the number of years over which this has to be paid may also increase by a few beyond ten. So take this as a ballk park thing rather than a precise thing.

So assuming total cost of new tunnels plus rehab of existing tunnels which is said to be a shade under $13 Billion, NJ's share is $1.38 Billion. Divided into 10 years, each year is $138 Million. The NJ Turnpike contribution covers a substantial part of it leaving only $57 Million to be found in each year's budget.

 

[jis]

Excellent article from NJ.com with more upto date cost estimates and shares of participating entities.

https://www.northjersey.com/story/n...ect-construction-timeline-tunnels/9199305002/
NJ share absolute amount is $1.84 Billion now, and that is between now and 2035. That would change the calculations a bit in the previous post, but still $81 million per year from the Turnpike Authority would be close to half of the NJ contribution per year.

 

[west point]

As noted the rehab of the old tunnel tubes is a significant cost.

 

[jis]

As noted the rehab of the old tunnel tubes is a significant cost.

I have never been able to get a definitive answer to the question of whether the current Gateway Tunnel cost estimates and appropriations include rehabilitation of the old tubes. This article in Washington Post appears to suggest that it does, and that is why the end date is 2035 for the project - 9 years for the new tubes and 3 years for the rehab = 12 years which gets us out to 2035.

But who knows for sure?

 

[west point]

AFAIK cost is the Rehab of old bores, replacement of sawmill (?) bridge, and some additional track to be expanded to 4 MT. Also track work at NYP with new puzzle switches to enable new bores access to tracks 1 - 15 I believe. As well a full CP connecting all tracks where new and old bore tracks will meet in NJ. That is only way the new bores would meet same operational fluidity of old bores.

Another cost is access to the diggings. That as far as I know that has not been settled. Heard suggestion if new bores trackwork could be installed to NJ portal the spoil could be trained out on Amtrak tracks. If some spoil was suitable then it could be dumped on side of ROW that is eventually be expanded to 4 MT..

That alternative will be a possibility as start on new bores will be some time in future due to ventilation shafts have to be dug first.

 

[jis]

AFAIK cost is the Rehab of old bores, replacement of sawmill (?) bridge, and some additional track to be expanded to 4 MT. Also track work at NYP with new puzzle switches to enable new bores access to tracks 1 - 15 I believe. As well a full CP connecting all tracks where new and old bore tracks will meet in NJ. That is only way the new bores would meet same operational fluidity of old bores.

Nothing west of Secaucus Jct is part of the Gateway Tunnel Project. They are however part of the overall Gateway Project.

The current ~$13 Billion covers only the new tunnels and track connections to it at both ends and the rehabilitation of the old tunnels as far as I can tell.

The Sawtooth Bridge or quadruple tracking from Secaucus to Newark is not covered by this budget. Those are separate projects, if and when they happen.

The track work at NYP absent NYPSS is not all that complicated. It is basically extending the northside ladder tracks to the new tunnel tracks, and connecting the new tunnel tracks to the south side ladders north of the diagonal platform.

 

[joelkfla]

The track work at NYP absent NYPS is not all that complicated. It is basically extending the northside ladder tracks to the new tunnel tracks, and connecting the new tunnel tracks to the south side ladders north of the diagonal platform.

What's the difference between NYP & NYPS?

 

[jis]

What's the difference between NYP & NYPS?

NYP is New York Penn Station.

By NYPS I meant to be refering to the proposed New York Penn Station South. Coming to think of it, perhaps it is better to use NYPSS for it.

 

[joelkfla]

NYP is New York Penn Station.

By NYPS I meant to be refering to the proposed New York Penn Station South. Coming to think of it, perhaps it is better to use NYPSS for it.

Probably ... but I still would've had to ask.

 

[jis]

Probably ... but I still would've had to ask.

NYPSS is actually pretty consistently used in the documents on the project. So people who have been involved will at least not get confused. People who are new to it may need to ask about many things, this being one of those.

 

[west point]

JIS Thanks for the correction . Always get Sawmill and Sawtooth confused.

 

[jis]

JIS Thanks for the correction . Always get Sawmill and Sawtooth confused.

It is called the Sawtooth Bridge because looking from above the edges of that bridge resemble sawtooths.

Here is the EA for the Sawtooth Bridge replacement project:

Sawtooth Bridge Replacement Project Environmental Assessment (EA) (PDF)

 

[Steve4031]

His, those posts about the sawtooth bridge were informative and helpful.