Gateway Project/New York Penn Station capacity improvement

[afigg]

With the new North Portal Bridge, what will be the vertical clearance for waterway traffic? Unless the bridge will be "way up there" (like the NJ Turnpike bridges), it looks like part of the plan is a reduction in clearances. If that's true, have the pertinent federal regulations been modified to allow it?

You don't have to locate the FEIS to find out the vertical clearance for the replacement North Portal bridge. Amtrak has been updating the nec.amtrak.com website and there is a fact sheet for the Portal bridge replacement (link to resource page with link to fact sheet PDF). The new bridge will have 53 feet of vertical clearance compared to 23 feet for the existing swing bridge. I expect part of what makes the replacement bridge project so expensive at close to $1 billion is that the project also includes long access ramps on either side of the new bridge for the higher elevation.

The question remains is how long will it take to get the funds in place to get started on building the North Portal bridge.

 

[Andrew]

According to the new presentation, it looks like the study area for the Gateway Tunnel Resielency Project has moved west from near Allied Interlocking to around Secaucus Junction.

I am also glad that a environmental review and engineering chart was included in that presentation! If a Record of Decision does get issued in October of 2018--as the chart suggests--I am curious about how long it will take to issue tunneling contracts and then sign the contracts and then begin tunnel boring...

I wonder what are the chances that the Port Authority contributes to Gateway--without the states of New Jersey and New York paying?

 

[jis]

As far as I can tell looking at the PA's budget there is no item to cover such payments at present, and the PA is not allowed to mint its own currency yet.

 

[Andrew]

As far as I can tell looking at the PA's budget there is no item to cover such payments at present, and the PA is not allowed to mint its own currency yet.

But that will probably change over the next few years.

 

[John Bobinyec]

As far as I can tell looking at the PA's budget there is no item to cover such payments at present, and the PA is not allowed to mint its own currency yet.

But that will probably change over the next few years.

Which? The line item or the minting?

jb

 

[Andrew]

As far as I can tell looking at the PA's budget there is no item to cover such payments at present, and the PA is not allowed to mint its own currency yet.

But that will probably change over the next few years.

Which? The line item or the minting?

jb

The Port Authority's BUDGET--due to the fact that other projects will get (or should get) completed over the next four years--and an improving economy as well.

 

[jis]

Well, what I was saying that the PA budget plan for the next three years that was being discussed by the PA Board did not have anything in it for Gateway. But I guess dreaming is good for ones health

 

[Andrew]

Can transportation construction projects be put up for bid as Final Design is occurring?

 

[afigg]

Came across a link to this good Capital New York / Politico article while checking to see what the Second Ave Sagas blog has to say about Gateway (and other NYC transit topics): Not Cuomo’s tunnel, but New York’s problem, Takes Cuomo to task for his shifting responses and statements about the project, especially the "It’s not my tunnel!" outburst.

Experts don't dispute that the federal government should take the lead on a project of this magnitude, but "the governor should definitely be at the table for discussions," said Veronica Vanterpool, executive director of the Tri-State Transportation Campaign.

That’s because a prolonged tunnel outage would have profound consequences for New York State’s finances, its economy, its future.

New Jersey residents account for 12 percent of Manhattan’s workforce, according to U.S. Census figures provided by the Partnership for New York City. New Jersey residents account for 16 percent of Manhattan’s wages.

In 2011, New Jersey residents paid nearly $3 billion in income taxes to New York State, according to the Empire Center for Public Policy. That was 8 percent of New York State’s entire personal income tax levy.

In fact, New Jersey residents were responsible for more of New York's personal income tax than the residents of all but three New York counties: Manhattan, Nassau and Westchester.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

... if the federal government provides more to Gateway than the $3 billion they have said they would contribute.

...

Unless Secretary Foxx has $3 billion siting around, he can't commit that much. … it will be up to Congress to provide the federal funds. ...

So we still do not know how much of the Gateway Project is being discussed. Maybe Cuomo is referring to the $3 billion commitment for ARC?

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2015/07/29/andrew-cuomo-hudson-river-tunnels/

Another link about Gateway: http://www.northjersey.com/news/analysis-committing-cash-is-key-to-hudson-tunnel-talk-1.1382096

Andrew, You were asked nicely to trim your reposts to focus on the points you want to discuss. That means, Use your delete key. Yes, you can do it.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

... if the federal government provides more... than the $3 billion they have said they would contribute. ...

… it will be up to Congress to provide the federal funds. ...

So we still do not know how much of the Gateway Project is being discussed. ...

Andrew, You were asked nicely to trim your reposts to focus on the points you want to discuss. That means, Use your delete key. Yes, you can do it.

I was reading this thread from 2013 to date, and lost my temper at about this point. Reading another couple of pages, it seems that Andrew maybe has learned to trim his repostings. My apologies.

 

[John Bobinyec]

A few posts ago, I mentioned that I worked for the E-L as a towerman at West End Tower in Jersey City. From that point, MP 2.1, to Grove Street Tower, MP .5, we had 4 tracks through the Bergen Tunnels, leading to Hoboken. During rush-hours, three of those tracks were lined up to be in the direction of the rush, with one going the opposite way. At the peak of the rush, each tunnel track had two trains on them, with more coming.

I always wondered how PRR/PC/Amtrak got along with just two tracks under the North River. I guess the answer is that the E-L (Lackawanna) was designed to handle more of a commuter crush than the North River Tunnels.

And so I guess the dilemma that Amtrak is now facing is that NYP is transitioning to have much more of a commuter rush-hour than it used to when it was created. It's a 5-pound "terminal" and everyone is trying to stuff 10 pounds of trains in it, during rush-hour.

jb

 

[Andrew]

For those of you who have not done it yet, check out this Presentation. I especially like the anticipated NEPA/engineering schedule for the Hudson Tunnels, and it appears that the Study Area has been moved west from near Allied Interlocking to just east of Secaucus Junction.

I also wonder how Amtrak can expedite the NEPA process?

http://nec.amtrak.com/sites/default/files/2015-08-10%20Gateway_NJSenate%20Final.pdf

 

[peconicstation]

For some good background on the tunnel project read the book, The Late, Great Pennsulvania Station by Lorraine Dehl.

The first chapters go into exacting detail on the planning and construction of the North River tunnels.

As for the situation that we are in now, it is worth noting that the PRR NEVER intended the tunnels to be used by commuters trains from the west (NJ).

The tunnels and main section of the station were planned for inter city trains only, and a small section was created for the PRR owned LIRR.

The PRR continued to run it's commuter trains from the west into and out of it's Jersey City station at Exchange Place.

The PRR did start to move it's commuters trains into Penn when inter city train travel diminished, closing it's Jersey City terminal in 1961.

I bring this up as any planning for new Hudson River tunnels has to include maximixing utilization of the last waterfront station in Hoboken.

Ken

 

[Andrew]

I wonder how the state of New Jersey is more likely to contribute to Gateway:

through the Port Authority or Transportation Trust Fund?

 

[jis]

I wonder how the state of New Jersey is more likely to contribute to Gateway:

through the Port Authority or Transportation Trust Fund?

Let us know when your wondering have caused you to arrive at an answer

 

[afigg]

I wonder how the state of New Jersey is more likely to contribute to Gateway:

through the Port Authority or Transportation Trust Fund?

I expect NJ will contribute funding both ways. The Port Authority will provide a piece of the funding and may play a substantial role in managing and running the Gateway project. NJ through NJT will provide another piece of the the funding, but NJ has to solve its transportation funding budget crisis first.

 

[Andrew]

The Port Authority is looking to sell several billion of it's real estate to help fund major capital projects--and Gateway could be one of them.

Politicians have recently lobbied to include Bus Terminal and Gateway Project funding in the revised Port Authority Capital Plan, which should either be completed later this year or by mid-2016 at the latest.

Sweeney on Gateway:

 

[Andrew]

I am starting a new topic because the other one is more than two years old.

Here are two recent links that have been posted regarding the Gateway Project:

http://nec.amtrak.com/sites/default/files/2015-08-10%20Gateway_NJSenate%20Final.pdf

and

http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/448/160/Amtrak-Ink-Aug-2015.pdf (Slides 10 and 11)

 

[jis]

You may wish to fix the first URL. If you click on it it leads you to nonexistent page.

 

[Andrew]

This link should work: http://nec.amtrak.com/sites/default/files/2015-08-10%20Gateway_NJSenate%20Final.pdf

Pay Special attention to slides 18 and 19...

Slide 18 has the proposed map for Gateway, and Slide 19 has the anticipated engineering and NEPA schedule.

Amtrak is hoping to receive a Record of Decision for Gateway in October of 2018, and complete PE in late 2019. Thus, tunnel boring should likely be able to begin no later than 2021--if not 2020.

I still think the Port Authority will end up contributing to Gateway.

 

[afigg]

An apparent breakthrough on rounding up the funding for the Gateway project. Governors Cuomo and Christie have offered to have NY and NJ pay for half of the estimated $20 billion cost. Of course, they will have to find the money and get their state legislatures to agree. And they want the Port Authority to oversee and manage the project, which in turns, means the Port Authority picks a lot of the contractors and, unless the federal district attorneys can clean up the PA, hands out a lot of patronage jobs tied to the giga-project.

Joint letter to the President

The negotiations will continue.....

 

[jis]

Of course the Governor's want their personal den of corruption to control the thing. It will be years behind schedule and zillions over budget, just like WTC-1. :angry2:

The timelines in the slidesets are nothing more than wish-list dates to shoot for, at the moment.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Corruption @ the Port Authority and the NY/NJ Governors Offices?

I'm Shocked! Shocked! Round up the usual suspects!!

 

[Andrew]

It will be interesting to see how the funding mechanisms play out...

If the Fed's really do end up paying half, perhaps the Port Authority (of New York and New Jersey), can pay 25%, and the states of New York and New Jersey can pay the other 25%.

Christie understands that people in New Jersey really do want Gateway to happen--and Cuomo can get the Port Authority to fund Gateway--all he has to do is tell the people at the Port Authority to chip into Gateway, and they will probably listen to him.

Another really interesting article regarding Gateway:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/christie-cuomo-ask-obama-to-split-hudson-river-tunnel-costs-1442343768