Genesis operating costs

[Swadian Hardcore]

I cannot seem to find any imformation as to the capital and operating costs of a regular P42DC or P40DC Genesis. If somebody knows these answers, please reply:

1. Buy a P42DC, realistic costs plus inflation.

2. Detailed fuel consumption figures including adjustment for track grade, train load, and train speed.

3. The operating range of a P42DC,including maximum range and "safe" range.

4. Capacity of fuel tank, normal and maximum.

5. Maintainance costs.

6. Crew costs.

7. Other operating costs.

With all these data I should be able to compute how much it costs to run a P42DC.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

I cannot seem to find any imformation as to the capital and operating costs of a regular P42DC or P40DC Genesis. If somebody knows these answers, please reply:

P42DC,including

Maintainance

With all these data I should be able to compute how much it costs to run a P42DC.

Please use proper grammar so that I will be able to help you. Once you clarify what maintainance costs are, how "these data" makes sense gramatically, and whether or not P42DC,including was meant to be one word or not, I think we can help.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I cannot seem to find any imformation as to the capital and operating costs of a regular P42DC or P40DC Genesis. If somebody knows these answers, please reply:

P42DC,including

Maintainance

With all these data I should be able to compute how much it costs to run a P42DC.

Please use proper grammar so that I will be able to help you. Once you clarify what maintainance costs are, how "these data" makes sense gramatically, and whether or not P42DC,including was meant to be one word or not, I think we can help.

I hope you are not serious. I was asking for the maintainence costs of a P42DC.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

I cannot seem to find any imformation as to the capital and operating costs of a regular P42DC or P40DC Genesis. If somebody knows these answers, please reply:

P42DC,including

Maintainance

With all these data I should be able to compute how much it costs to run a P42DC.

Please use proper grammar so that I will be able to help you. Once you clarify what maintainance costs are, how "these data" makes sense gramatically, and whether or not P42DC,including was meant to be one word or not, I think we can help.

I hope you are not serious. I was asking for the maintainence costs of a P42DC.

As serious as I possibly could be regarding the "maintainance" costs. This is a very relevant subject to bring up, but this is not the right discussion to talk about it. It should be moved.

I'm kidding Swadian. I'm just giving you a deserved hard time.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Can somebody actually help me with these questions? This isn't just for me, others would benefit, too.

 

[ColdRain&Snow]

 Hmm, data is plural for datum, alas the use of "these data" is perfectly correct and appropriate. If you're gonna call someone out on their grammar, you best ensure that your own house is in order first.  

 

[johnny.menhennet]

Hmm, data is plural for datum, alas the use of "these data" is perfectly correct and appropriate. If you're gonna call someone out on their grammar, you best ensure that your own house is in order first.

I know that; it was a subtle thing I added in to see if anyone caught it. Good job! Most people often use it so incorrectly that I didn't think anyone would catch it!

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Hmm, data is plural for datum, alas the use of "these data" is perfectly correct and appropriate. If you're gonna call someone out on their grammar, you best ensure that your own house is in order first.

I know that; it was a subtle thing I added in to see if anyone caught it. Good job! Most people often use it so incorrectly that I didn't think anyone would catch it!

Could people please quit playing tricks and wasting posts on a perfectly serious thread? Then again, your trick was kinda funny.....

 

[RampWidget]

Can somebody actually help me with these questions? This isn't just for me, others would benefit, too.

A good starting point, IMO, would be GE Transportation Systems. The Genesis isn't considered a current model, but the GE Transportation Systems Web site has a 'Contact Us' page that might be worth a try.

'http://www.getransportation.com/contact-us.html'

There's also a good bit of information available just digging around the 'getransportation.com' Web site itself.

I haven't taken the time to pore over Amtrak's own reports available on their Web site, but you might find some of what you are looking for there also. If not, try Amtrak's Government Affairs & Corporate Communications staff (listed on the Amtrak Web site under About Amtrak > Government Affairs > Government Affairs Staff). If these folks are set up like similar departments on other railroads, they sometimes handle or refer external inquiries. It's worth a try.

Good luck, and share with us what you find out!

 

[johnny.menhennet]

Swadian, even though I didn't take this seriously, I actually am interested to find out what you discover. Some of it, specifically how many pax cars can be hauled at what grade and with how many engines, etc. would be interesting. Good luck finding what you want.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

cost of a P40-P42 was over 2 million a piece

Fuel use is depending on load, how many cars how much HEP load etc etc

Maintenance of locomotive (if not breaking down) would be inspection/ cleaning cycle every 92 days and 365 days 1095 days, again depending on how much actual maintenance is done.

Fuel capacity is 4 x 550 gallons.

 

[Ryan]

Wow, the elusive sextuplet post.

Someone was a little heavy on the "add reply" button.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

cost of a P40-P42 was over 2 million a piece

Fuel use is depending on load, how many cars how much HEP load etc etc

Maintenance of locomotive (if not breaking down) would be inspection/ cleaning cycle every 92 days and 365 days 1095 days, again depending on how much actual maintenance is done.

Fuel capacity is 4 x 550 gallons.

1. Only two million dollars in 1993? Superliner IIs ordered around the same time cost more!

2. I know it is dependant on load, HEP, grades, etc. But is there no datum out there for fuel?

3. How much does each cycle cost?

4. That would be 2200 gallons. However, without knowing fuel consumption I cannot calculate operating range. How much does it cost for Amtrak to get a gallon of diesel?

 

[afigg]

1. Only two million dollars in 1993? Superliner IIs ordered around the same time cost more!

2. I know it is dependant on load, HEP, grades, etc. But is there no datum out there for fuel?

3. How much does each cycle cost?

4. That would be 2200 gallons. However, without knowing fuel consumption I cannot calculate operating range. How much does it cost for Amtrak to get a gallon of diesel?

The projected cost of a new diesel locomotive to replace the P-42 was $4.5 million in the 2011 V2 Fleet Strategy Plan. This a loaded cost which is assumed to include 25% of the total cost for acquisition, management, spare parts, maintenance infrastructure upgrades, train and development. Any time you see a per unit price associated with a large equipment order, that may or may not include support and acquisition costs. Read the V2 Fleet Strategy plan if you have not done so already.

As for diesel fuel costs, the FY12 Comprehensive Business Plan final draft projected a diesel cost per gallon of $3.11 based on $105 cost per barrel. The overall cost in FY11 was $2.77 per gallon. I expect the final average per gallon cost for FY12 will be more than $3.11 a gallon.

The level of detail you are asking for is something that only the accounting and engineering departments know and try to keep track of. Fuel consumption is going to vary based on loads, grades, speeds, time spent running the engine waiting on a siding, weather. There are no simple answers here. The level of detail you want in not going to show up in the financial reports.

 

[Long Train Runnin']

cost of a P40-P42 was over 2 million a piece

Fuel use is depending on load, how many cars how much HEP load etc etc

Maintenance of locomotive (if not breaking down) would be inspection/ cleaning cycle every 92 days and 365 days 1095 days, again depending on how much actual maintenance is done.

Fuel capacity is 4 x 550 gallons.

1. Only two million dollars in 1993? Superliner IIs ordered around the same time cost more!

2. I know it is dependant on load, HEP, grades, etc. But is there no datum out there for fuel?

3. How much does each cycle cost?

4. That would be 2200 gallons. However, without knowing fuel consumption I cannot calculate operating range. How much does it cost for Amtrak to get a gallon of diesel?

I'm not sure if data that is that specific exists, or if it does what reports things like this would be published in. I guess you could use the freedom of information act, but I don't know where you would begin looking for that data.

That being said freight railroads have published information on the fuel efficiency of their locomotives based on how far a gallon of fuel moves a certain amount of freight. I don't have the sources in front of me, but I believe CSX said they can move 440 tons of freight 1 mile on a gallon of fuel. I don't believe Amtrak ever released any data to this effect.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

All right, I have now taken some inaccurate data and made some estimates. Apparantly, a P42DC on a Silver can make it from WAS-JAX without refueling, but not to MIA. That is 752 miles per Amtrak's schedule. Conside4ring extra fuwl for emergencies, a P42DC wouldf have a maximum range around 900 miles. A previous poster said that it has the equivalent of 2200 gallons of fuel capacity. For 900 miles of range, that would be 2.4-2.5 gallons for each mile. I realize that these P42DCs are not being used to maximum load or speed.

In conclusion, I would say that the P42DC would use at least 2 gallons/mile and more when you increase speed and/or load. The fuel comsumption should increase exponentially when you increase speed. Unsure about increase rate of added loades. This is only fuel consumption and does not include the full costs of a P42DC. An unreliable souce states a fuel consumption of up to 5 gallons/mile with a huge load (900,000 pounds) and a 3% grade. Obviously the speed would be low.

Any more info would be apprieciated.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Stop trying. Amtraks accounting mechanism is the only place you will get an accurate answer. I've looked at some of their actual accounting work sheets. They have turned obfuscation into a master art form worthy of the CIA.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

With all these data I should be able to compute how much it costs to run a P42DC.

Is the ol' HO layout just not doing it for you, anymore? :giggle:

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Stop trying. Amtraks accounting mechanism is the only place you will get an accurate answer. I've looked at some of their actual accounting work sheets. They have turned obfuscation into a master art form worthy of the CIA.

While is everybody so hostile to every thread I start? :excl: :angry2:

 

[AlanB]

Stop trying. Amtraks accounting mechanism is the only place you will get an accurate answer. I've looked at some of their actual accounting work sheets. They have turned obfuscation into a master art form worthy of the CIA.

While is everybody so hotile to every thread I start? :excl: :angry2:

I don't think he was trying to be hostile; he's just pointing out that really the only way to get the data you seek is to gain access to Amtrak's accounting system and even if you did manage that trick, you may or may not be able to actually rely on that data.

 

[zephyr17]

Stop trying. Amtraks accounting mechanism is the only place you will get an accurate answer. I've looked at some of their actual accounting work sheets. They have turned obfuscation into a master art form worthy of the CIA.

While is everybody so hotile to every thread I start? :excl: :angry2:

Not me. I think it is an interesting question, and even if you can't get an "accurate" answer, the exercise of getting an approximation, such as the WAS-JAX is interesting. It is a defensible algorithm to derive data that is otherwise unavailable. I don't see why anyone has a problem with such reasoned speculation.

We're interested in this stuff. Isn't this what we are here for?

 

[zepherdude]

I actually searched for some of your questions, could find nothing other than what has already been stated. I think possibly at this level (remember we are NOT Amtrak) no one really knows. There are many number crunchers here who would be happy to share known info. Submit your questions directly to Amtrak and see what happens. All they can say is it is not policy to discuss operational usages and expenses or internal data or maybe a receptive system Vice President would send you some hardcore statistics. Most of us here are just desk chair Amtrak VPs in charge of everything.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Would someone please share the longest Amtrak diesel segment without refueling?

 

[MetraUPWest]

Fuel burn depends on how much throttle the engineer needs at that time, how well the unit is maintained, and the biggest difference is if that unit is producing head end power (electricity for the coaches), etc.

The P42DC makes 4250 horsepower at 1050 rpm. In HEP mode, the engine revs at 900 rpm no matter what notch the throttle is in so that the HEP is produces is at the right frequency (60Hz), so the maximum horsepower the unit can make in HEP mode is only 3650 horsepower. Depending on how much HEP needs to be produced, the engine will be putting out between 3650 hp for a 0kW HEP load, and 2525 hp for a 800kW load (the most a P42 can produce), and obviously the higher the HEP load the more fuel it will burn.

Here are the fuel numbers (expressed in gallons per hour):

P42DC NOT providing HEP

Notch 8- 201

Notch 7- 160

Notch 6- 130

Notch 5- 102

Notch 4- 72

Notch 3- 51

Notch 2- 23

Notch 1- 12

Idle- 4

P42DC in HEP mode with 0% HEP load (0kW)

Notch 8- 172

Notch 7- 168

Notch 6- 137

Notch 5-109

Notch 4- 78

Notch 3- 57

Notch 2- 33

Notch 1- 22

Idle-16

P42DC providing 50% max HEP load (400kW)

Notch 8- 172

Notch 7- 172

Notch 6- 159

Notch 5-130

Notch 4- 102

Notch 3- 82

Notch 2- 58

Notch 1- 47

Idle-37

P42DC providing 650kW HEP load (getting near the max the coaches' HEP cables can support)

Notch 8- 172

Notch 7- 172

Notch 6- 172

Notch 5-145

Notch 4- 119

Notch 3- 98

Notch 2- 74

Notch 1- 63

Idle-55

 

[Ryan]

Thanks, Dan - I figured you might have those numbers handy.