GOOD NEWS!!

[Anderw]

1. It's just that, from what I understand, at least for the Gateway Project, Amtrak is looking at an 8 track stub-style station immediately to the south of the existing station. But, there are future plans for a SIX track station beneath that one. The Upper Level Station is the goal, but I would not be surprised if the Lower Level Option gets chosen... Thus, could NJ Transit operate 18 trains into the Lower Level on 6 tracks, and have 6 go the current Penn Station, (with a redesigned A Interlocking)?

2. Would it be financially cheaper to forget Penn South and instead have a "Penn Station Connector" from 12th Avenue to Penn Station, and have bored tunnels travel either under 30th or 31st street, and tie into the Lower Level of Grand Central Terminal?

 

[Anderson]

Where should I begin? There are a whole lot of utility tunnels, subways, and high-rise sub-basements that such a tunnel would run into.

Also, with the additional station...that is, I believe, part of some of those super-high-speed rail projects. It's not connected to NJT's project.

 

[Andrew]

Where should I begin? There are a whole lot of utility tunnels, subways, and high-rise sub-basements that such a tunnel would run into.
Also, with the additional station...that is, I believe, part of some of those super-high-speed rail projects. It's not connected to NJT's project.

Are you talking about the tunnel I was referring to Grand Central Terminal from West Midtown, Manhattan? (Just to clarify, this tunnel was not supposed to go into Penn Station. Rather, there would be a spur from 12th avenue to connect to the tunnel box which would take it into Penn Station). From what I understand, though, NJ Transit considered this proposal I think a decade a go.

Thus, are you saying that a new trans-hudson tunnel--with a connection to Grand Central--is highly unlikely?

 

[AlanB]

Where should I begin? There are a whole lot of utility tunnels, subways, and high-rise sub-basements that such a tunnel would run into.

Also, with the additional station...that is, I believe, part of some of those super-high-speed rail projects. It's not connected to NJT's project.

Are you talking about the tunnel I was referring to Grand Central Terminal from West Midtown, Manhattan? (Just to clarify, this tunnel was not supposed to go into Penn Station. Rather, there would be a spur from 12th avenue to connect to the tunnel box which would take it into Penn Station). From what I understand, though, NJ Transit considered this proposal I think a decade a go.

Thus, are you saying that a new trans-hudson tunnel--with a connection to Grand Central--is highly unlikely?

He's talking about a tunnel to get to Grand Central from NYP. It's not practical and it is very unlikely to ever happen. There is simply too much in the way.

Far more likely would be 2 more tunnels to Queens and Sunnyside. And that's still a long shot! But getting to Grand Central has so many issues that it will never happen unless someone drops mega Billions in the budget to make the project happen. And even then it is still unlikely. You have the Park Avenue Auto tunnel in the way, the Lexington Avenue subway which runs under Park avenue at that point in the way. You have Metro North's loop tracks in the way. You have the platforms at GCT in the way. You have water pipes in the way, power lines in the way (there are no telephone poles in Manhattan so all power lines are undergound). You have steam pipes in the way.

I'm too tired to go on. But a GCT to NYP rail connection is a pipe dream, a railfan's dream, and nothing more.

 

[Andrew]

Where should I begin? There are a whole lot of utility tunnels, subways, and high-rise sub-basements that such a tunnel would run into.

Also, with the additional station...that is, I believe, part of some of those super-high-speed rail projects. It's not connected to NJT's project.

Are you talking about the tunnel I was referring to Grand Central Terminal from West Midtown, Manhattan? (Just to clarify, this tunnel was not supposed to go into Penn Station. Rather, there would be a spur from 12th avenue to connect to the tunnel box which would take it into Penn Station). From what I understand, though, NJ Transit considered this proposal I think a decade a go.

Thus, are you saying that a new trans-hudson tunnel--with a connection to Grand Central--is highly unlikely?

He's talking about a tunnel to get to Grand Central from NYP. It's not practical and it is very unlikely to ever happen. There is simply too much in the way.

Far more likely would be 2 more tunnels to Queens and Sunnyside. And that's still a long shot! But getting to Grand Central has so many issues that it will never happen unless someone drops mega Billions in the budget to make the project happen. And even then it is still unlikely. You have the Park Avenue Auto tunnel in the way, the Lexington Avenue subway which runs under Park avenue at that point in the way. You have Metro North's loop tracks in the way. You have the platforms at GCT in the way. You have water pipes in the way, power lines in the way (there are no telephone poles in Manhattan so all power lines are undergound). You have steam pipes in the way.

I'm too tired to go on. But a GCT to NYP rail connection is a pipe dream, a railfan's dream, and nothing more.

Lolz. I was not talking about a tunnel FROM Penn Station to Grand Central Terminal. Instead, I was referring to a tunnel that BYPASSES Penn Station but ends up in the Lower Level of Grand Central Terminal. (Perhaps this tunnel could travel 100 or 120 feet below 30th or 31st street--but a tunnel spur or connection would occur in Southwest Midtown, Manhattan to Penn Station). Thus, instead of ADDING platforms in Penn Station, NJ Transit could just slightly increase the number of commuter trains into Penn Station, but have a large share of their additional capacity operate into Grand Central's Lower Level.

I do not think that a tunnel will be bored from Penn Station to Grand Central Terminal, because of the 6th Ave. IND Express Tracks. Thoughts?

 

[jis]

You are talking of a tunnel in someones fantasy, since no one who has done any real design or planning work has talked about such a tunnel yet.

And once they get to Grand Central Lower Level, where do you suppose they will put those trains? Another railfan fantasy is that GCT has infinite unused capacity that MNRR has no idea how to make use of.

Drew Galloway, the guy who manages the design work for all this for Amtrak told me once that there really is no problem caused by 6th Ave IND Line. The current East River tunnels get under it and so will any new tunnel east of NYP. All that you need is 2% grade which is just fine for trains that operate in and out of Penn Station.

Having said that I doubt very much that a tunnel exiting to east from NYP will go to GCT. It will more likely go to the Sunnyside area, perhaps even be used for express service to JFK and such.

I truly believe that the desire of NJ folks to get to the east side is much much more effectively addressed by building #7 to Secaucus than trying to figure the labyrinth out to try to build tunnels from NYP to GCT (NYG). Just like the PATH - LEX connection that was popular among rail advocates at one time, this one too looks good on some paper but the devil is sitting in the details. The aficionados have just attached themselves to a preliminary study which had said good things about the GCT connection and generally get extremely upset and red in their face if anyone mentions to them that maybe that study was a preliminary one which missed a few details.

 

[Anderson]

Basically, to get much more capacity into GCT, you'd need a third level to be added given the situation in GCT at present. Now, I'm not sure if you could get a train to Galesburg in the 1890s there, but you'd get extra capacity at a good deal of expense. The question, though, is why do it into GCT instead of Penn? There's really no reason you couldn't put all your tunnels into Penn Station, put tunnels out the west side if necessary, and run everything you need to from NJ (as well as some MNRR stuff and the LIRR stuff that's there now) through that.

 

[Andrew]

You are talking of a tunnel in someones fantasy, since no one who has done any real design or planning work has talked about such a tunnel yet.
And once they get to Grand Central Lower Level, where do you suppose they will put those trains? Another railfan fantasy is that GCT has infinite unused capacity that MNRR has no idea how to make use of.

Drew Galloway, the guy who manages the design work for all this for Amtrak told me once that there really is no problem caused by 6th Ave IND Line. The current East River tunnels get under it and so will any new tunnel east of NYP. All that you need is 2% grade which is just fine for trains that operate in and out of Penn Station.

Having said that I doubt very much that a tunnel exiting to east from NYP will go to GCT. It will more likely go to the Sunnyside area, perhaps even be used for express service to JFK and such.

I truly believe that the desire of NJ folks to get to the east side is much much more effectively addressed by building #7 to Secaucus than trying to figure the labyrinth out to try to build tunnels from NYP to GCT (NYG). Just like the PATH - LEX connection that was popular among rail advocates at one time, this one too looks good on some paper but the devil is sitting in the details. The aficionados have just attached themselves to a preliminary study which had said good things about the GCT connection and generally get extremely upset and red in their face if anyone mentions to them that maybe that study was a preliminary one which missed a few details.

But how would a Seven Extension to Secaucus increase capacity between Newark, New Jersey, and Washington DC?

What else did Drew Galloway say? Has he said anything about the minimal amount of Block 780 that will have to get razed if the Upper Level Option gets built, or if the Lower Level Option is actually a better--and more realistic--choice?

 

[jis]

He did not say anything with regard to the questions that you ask that is shareable at present. When he is ready to talk about it publicly then we will all know.

What does 7 extension or Gateway Tunnels or NYP to GCT connection or Gateway Tunnel to GCT connection have to do with capacity between Newark and Washington DC? :unsure: Newark - Washington capacity seems to be quite independent of all of those. Indeed you could conceivably increase capacity of Newark - Washington without doing anything to capacity into New York Penn, and just terminate a whole bunch of trains at Secaucus or Hoboken and let PATH and 7 to Secaucus take care of the rest. Sort of like arriving into London Waterloo south of the Thames and then taking the Underground to everywhere else in London.

 

[Anderson]

Obviously it is different, but why am I reminded of the New Haven's attempts to truncate service at RTE and the NYC's attempts to truncate service up in the Bronx so they could sell off NYG?

 

[jis]

I was not suggesting that anybody do such truncations. I was just trying to explain the fact that Washington to Newark capacity has nothing to do with how traffic between Newark and New York is handled.

 

[Andrew]

Are you saying that traffic between Washington DC and Newark, NJ, is not at capacity?

 

[jis]

Yes. We have a looong way to go before they get anywhere near capacity.

 

[Andrew]

What about between Trenton and Secaucus, New Jersey, on NJ Transit?

 

[jis]

Most congested is Swift to Secaucus and Hunter to Rea. Other than that it is fine. Specially with the higher density signaling in place that is coming with the HSR upgrade, it will be fine for years to come. Remember also that most trains are not at their full potential length yet either.

 

[Andrew]

1. Could Amtrak (or a contractor) build the deep-level station underneath Block 780 and mine stairwells/escalators to the current Penn Station without razing the street. Also, how deep are the steam pipes and utility lines there?

2. What would take less time to build: Amtrak's Gateway Project or Seven to Secaucus?

 

[Andrew]

1. Any chance that Amtrak alters the Gateway Program with regard to Penn Station (in the sense that the ARC 34th Street Station was changed)?

2. Should Gateway receive funding, what would be it's biggest challenge getting to completion?