Greyhound told to quit Denver Union Station

[Willbridge]

Denver Union Station's underground bus concourse was not designed for long distance bus use, other than for visits by Amtrak Thruway trips. The bus terminal was supposed to be in a purpose-built wing. Now the consequences...

https://denverite.com/2024/09/13/rtd-greyhound-union-stationbus-terminal/

Bus concourse gates are used by other intercity carriers connecting with Greyhound in Denver.

 

[Jdub]

So, wait—Covid transportation funding was significant. Didn’t the City or State step up to construct a bus hub near the rail station? I’m not sure Greyhound should be entirely on the hook for a station but this is a public service and an important transportation facility. A state/local transportation planning group should have had this in their sights for a decade. With projects like this long term soldiering on is the only way to get to facility construction. Otherwise it’s always A SURPRISE! when people are done out of something that ought to be a no-brainer.

 

[Willbridge]

So, wait—Covid transportation funding was significant. Didn’t the City or State step up to construct a bus hub near the rail station? I’m not sure Greyhound should be entirely on the hook for a station but this is a public service and an important transportation facility. A state/local transportation planning group should have had this in their sights for a decade. With projects like this long term soldiering on is the only way to get to facility construction. Otherwise it’s always A SURPRISE! when people are done out of something that ought to be a no-brainer.

After Greyhound turned down the costly bus facility at Union Station, I got the impression that the development people running the show were okay with that.* In the meetings I was in, I don't recall any further discussion. There were too many moving parts, and later at the key time Greyhound was being sold off by First Group. The state has been focused on their own Bustang system.

* The reason it was costly was because Greyhound shrank steadily over the decade that the Union Station project took, and the proposed intercity bus station didn't.

To better understand the atmosphere, you should know that keeping tracks in Denver Union Station took 15 years and a lawsuit.

 

[cirdan]

It seems strange to me that a city can build a major transportation hub and then not make provision for inter city buses.

 

[como]

It seems strange to me that a city can build a major transportation hub and then not make provision for inter city buses.

I'll take a guess on why. Before the rebuild of Union Station there was Market Street Station, a few blocks east on 16th (?) Street. RTD regional busses from the north, northwest, and west used it as their hub. The Greyhound station, as mentioned in the Denverite article in Willbridge's post, was a few blocks away at 19th and Curtis. Market Street had a similar layout as the bus concourse in Union Station, and was obviously not designed to serve the needs of the riders of inter city busses.

 

[railiner]

I was there in 1976 when then Colorado Governor Rich Lamm cut the ribbon for the new Greyhound-Trailways terminal at 19th and Curtis. It was definitely designed as an intercity bus terminal, with lots of room, and extensive facilities for long-distance travellers.
However, from Day One of its opening, it was also served by RTD’s Boulder Division buses, which I believe continued even when the newer underground Market Street Station opened.
This was a legacy of the predecessor, Denver-Boulder Bus Company’s using the former Greyhound Terminal at 17th and Glenarm. I used to drive that route for them…

One of RTD’s very first routes was “The Parker Stage”, contracted to Continental Trailways, and operated from their old terminal at 17th and Broadway…

 

[Willbridge]

I was there in 1976 when then Colorado Governor Rich Lamm cut the ribbon for the new Greyhound-Trailways terminal at 19th and Curtis. It was definitely designed as an intercity bus terminal, with lots of room, and extensive facilities for long-distance travellers.
However, from Day One of its opening, it was also served by RTD’s Boulder Division buses, which I believe continued even when the newer underground Market Street Station opened.
This was a legacy of the predecessor, Denver-Boulder Bus Company’s using the former Greyhound Terminal at 17th and Glenarm. I used to drive that route for them…

One of RTD’s very first routes was “The Parker Stage”, contracted to Continental Trailways, and operated from their old terminal at 17th and Broadway…

Here are some Denver dates:

1974 - Civic group proposes intermodal use of Union Station.
1976 - Denver Bus Center opened with Greyhound and Trailways.
1980 - Interstate buses deregulated.
1982 - Market Street Station opened as part of 16th Street Mall project.
1985 - Voters reject scheme to convert Union Station and yard to a convention center.
1986 - City begins planning to clear tracks out of Central Platte Valley, encouraged by Reagan cutback plans for Amtrak and by Glacier Park Realty (BN). RTD went along with this as part of planning for bus lanes and bus/hov lanes from I-25 into Market Street Station.
1991 - Amtrak activity increases with Pioneer.
1994 - Having given up on the city's dithering, RTD negotiated directly with the terminal company for a bus lane between Track One and the historic station building. ColoRail gets a flag stop at DUS added.

More to come.

 

[Willbridge]

Here are some Denver dates:

1974 - Civic group proposes intermodal use of Union Station.
1976 - Denver Bus Center opened with Greyhound and Trailways.
1980 - Interstate buses deregulated.
1982 - Market Street Station opened as part of 16th Street Mall project.
1985 - Voters reject scheme to convert Union Station and yard to a convention center.
1986 - City begins planning to clear tracks out of Central Platte Valley, encouraged by Reagan cutback plans for Amtrak and by Glacier Park Realty (BN). RTD went along with this as part of planning for bus lanes and bus/HOV lanes from North I-25 into Market Street Station.
1986 - Collapse of Continental Trailways. Greyhound tells legislature that it will step in.
1988 - ColoRail formed, with retention of tracks in DUS top priority.
1989 - HB1249 study proposes a rail line to new airport from Union Station.
1989 - On May 8th, Mary Roberts of the Denver Planning Office said "The railroads want Amtrak to go away. It interferes with their ability to operate efficiently." Also said "The developers of the DUS site see rail service as a deterrent to a good investment."
1991 - Amtrak activity increases with Pioneer.
1994 - Having given up on the city's dithering, RTD negotiated directly with the terminal company for a bus lane between Track One and the historic station building. ColoRail gets a flag stop at DUS added.
1997 - Pioneer discontinued, additional Thruway buses stop in front of station.
1999 - Laidlaw (Canadian firm) buys Greyhound.
2000 - RTD buys DUS.
2002 - RTD cleans up station, reopens ped tunnel to Track 9.
2002 - C-Line Light Rail serves DUS.
2004 - Voters approve Fastracks funding.
2006 - E-Line Light Rail added to DUS.
2007 - RTD GM reports that "we're still negotiating with Greyhound." Plan to sell Market Street Station for additional funding for DUS project.
2007 - First Transit (British firm) buys Greyhound.
2008 - RTD GM reports that "we're still negotiating with Greyhound." They want a 14-bay terminal on a deck above proposed parking garage off of 19th & Wewatta Streets.
2008 - Denver Union Station Project Authority created. RTD gets 2 of 11 votes, CDOT gets 1 vote, rest of votes to City and developers. RTD staff warned by GM to cooperate.

Project control:

2009 - Final project takes shape. Greyhound vice-president says $21 million facility too costly for them. It is deleted from plans. Underground bus concourse designed with two gates for Amtrak Thruway trips.
2011 - DUS and CPV construction underway. Amtrak moved to temporary station at 1900 21st Street.
2012 - Federal court rules against NEPA lawsuit that ColoRail participated in. Although judge agrees that track changes harm service (removal of connection to south), law is satisfied with proof that procedures of NEPA were followed.
2013 - W-Line added to Union Station.
2014 - Amtrak returns to historic building.
2015 - Study says Greyhound scaled down enough to fit in DUS Bus Concourse.
2020 - Denver Bus Center sold for $38 million.
2021 - Flix Mobility (German firm) takes over Greyhound.
2024 - RTD cancels Greyhound lease.

These are just some highlights.

 

[railiner]

So if I understand correctly, they have until next August 31st, to find another spot?
Or hopefully, they will reconcile their differences and reach a new agreement.

Or face the dilemma they find themselves in other cities across the country…

 

[jebr]

It seems as though the major issue with the facility is that it was never designed for intercity bus transfers, especially those with the cheapness of Greyhound (where hotels aren't often provided when connections are missed.) The question then becomes whether Denver can be removed as a major transfer point (doubtful) or how to handle transfer business (maybe Greyhound is required to have a ticket counter and provide hotel rooms for those who have an overnight layover due to missed connections?)

The major question is whether there's the political will to find solutions, rather than just kick the issue over to some other agency. Wouldn't be surprised if the "solution" is to move them the a random suburban industrial park - hopefully there'll at least be frequent RTD service to wherever they're booted to.

 

[Willbridge]

Here are some supporting documents.

 

[Willbridge]

It seems as though the major issue with the facility is that it was never designed for intercity bus transfers, especially those with the cheapness of Greyhound (where hotels aren't often provided when connections are missed.) The question then becomes whether Denver can be removed as a major transfer point (doubtful) or how to handle transfer business (maybe Greyhound is required to have a ticket counter and provide hotel rooms for those who have an overnight layover due to missed connections?)

The major question is whether there's the political will to find solutions, rather than just kick the issue over to some other agency. Wouldn't be surprised if the "solution" is to move them the a random suburban industrial park - hopefully there'll at least be frequent RTD service to wherever they're booted to.

One problem, as Mike Timlin's letter above pointed out, is that Greyhound also provides regional service that includes Amtrak Thruway trips and connections with Bustang. When the DUS bus concourse was designed, two gates were identified for stop-and-go intercity operations. From Greyhound's point of view, the double station situation was a nuisance.

2014


2017 - Bustang added.


2016 - at Amtrak waiting area inside historic building,

 

[railiner]

From Greyhound's point of view, the double station situation was a nuisance.

Aren’t they still doing that in Chicago, and maybe some other points?

 

[jadebenn]

1989 - On May 8th, Mary Roberts of the Denver Planning Office said "The railroads want Amtrak to go away. It interferes with their ability to operate efficiently." Also said "The developers of the DUS site see rail service as a deterrent to a good investment."

Do you have a source for this quote? I'd really love to see the context.

 

[toddinde]

While every city is different, the fundamental problem remains. The issue is Greyhound and most other operators have moved to a curbside model without stations. When Greyhound was sold to Flix Bus, one of the perks was the terminals and the land weren’t included. They were then liquidated separately at great profit. This is another example of the problem of failing to plan and excessive reliance on the market in the U.S. transportation system. Of course, let’s ignore that where highways and airports are concerned as they are heavily subsidized. The answer is pretty straight forward. Create colocated regional transportation centers that include trains, busses and local transit. There will need to be funding, but the facilities will generate some revenue if done right, and the funding can probably come from some kind of bond along with federal assistance. Then a municipal ordinance outlawing intercity curbside bus pickups and requiring them to use the provided facility or a suitable facility of their own.

 

[Willbridge]

Aren’t they still doing that in Chicago, and maybe some other points?

Yes.

 

[Willbridge]

Do you have a source for this quote? I'd really love to see the context.

It's from my hand-written notes from a meeting. I'm trying to organize my notes for the Western History Department of the Denver Public Library. They have some of my files already.

 

[cirdan]

While every city is different, the fundamental problem remains. The issue is Greyhound and most other operators have moved to a curbside model without stations. When Greyhound was sold to Flix Bus, one of the perks was the terminals and the land weren’t included. They were then liquidated separately at great profit. This is another example of the problem of failing to plan and excessive reliance on the market in the U.S. transportation system. Of course, let’s ignore that where highways and airports are concerned as they are heavily subsidized. The answer is pretty straight forward. Create colocated regional transportation centers that include trains, busses and local transit. There will need to be funding, but the facilities will generate some revenue if done right, and the funding can probably come from some kind of bond along with federal assistance. Then a municipal ordinance outlawing intercity curbside bus pickups and requiring them to use the provided facility or a suitable facility of their own.

Nobody is talking about airports being shut down so the land can be sold off. Regardless of who owns them. Even if some cynical owner did suggest something so absurd, I'm sure that local leaders would pull all the strings they have to prevent it happening.

Why are bus stations any different?

 

[UserNameRequired]

Nobody is talking about airports being shut down so the land can be sold off. Regardless of who owns them. Even if some cynical owner did suggest something so absurd, I'm sure that local leaders would pull all the strings they have to prevent it happening.

Why are bus stations any different?

I have a different opinion on the airport closures. It is actually quite common for them to come under threat for closure and redevelopment. The latest was 3 days ago:
https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024...-and-economically-advantageous-bibb-says.html

There are closure threats in California, Colorado, Nebraska, Iowa, and many other states. I am seeking a complete list for reference, it will take some time to compile.

 

[railiner]

I have a different opinion on the airport closures. It is actually quite common for them to come under threat for closure and redevelopment. The latest was 3 days ago:
https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024...-and-economically-advantageous-bibb-says.html

There are closure threats in California, Colorado, Nebraska, Iowa, and many other states. I am seeking a complete list for reference, it will take some time to compile.

That must be similar to when Chicago shut down Meigs Field, on the lakefront…

 

[MARC Rider]

That must be similar to when Chicago shut down Meigs Field, on the lakefront…

On the other hand, at Toronto, Billy Bishop Airport has expanded.

 

[jpakala]

Des Moines airport is expanding; Cedar Falls/Waterloo's airport food service ended long ago (the dark vacant space still exists), and flights are few and far between and using them is expensive. Champaign/Urbana, IL has connections to I think one other city besides Chicago and the U of IL even provides a half million dollars a year to help the airport exist. Despite not having to build and maintain airports or pay the 72,000 FAA workers, the airlines need to board large numbers of passengers per flight. Smaller places get few (if any) flights and high prices for flying.

 

[MccfamschoolMom]

Champaign/Urbana, IL has connections to I think one other city besides Chicago and the U of IL even provides a half million dollars a year to help the airport exist.

I flew out of Champaign/Urbana to job interviews when I was in grad school back in the 1980s. (Connecting flights each time, I think.) The city buses go out to Willard Airport, and at least for the past 15 years (maybe longer, though not back when I was there), a UIUC student ID gets you free rides on those city buses, so very convenient for students going home or to job interviews nationwide.

 

[toddinde]

Nobody is talking about airports being shut down so the land can be sold off. Regardless of who owns them. Even if some cynical owner did suggest something so absurd, I'm sure that local leaders would pull all the strings they have to prevent it happening.

Why are bus stations any different?

Absolutely great question! We bond and bond and bond for airport improvements and don’t bat an eye at eye popping highway and aviations subsidies, but bus passengers can stand on a cold, rainy or snowy curb and wait for a bus. When someone freezes to death waiting for a bus somewhere, your question will get asked again.