Handling in service disabled locomotives

[IndyLions]

Ahhhh...Adventure on Amtrak. My last trip (Zephyr) terminated at Denver eastbound due to the previous days' train milk truck incident.

Today on 97 we made it to Orlando an hour or so late - then lost power. That was almost 5 hours ago - and we're currently headless (see next photo) awaiting a locomotive I presume.

The irony is we had two locomotives to start with - one Siemens (leading) and one GE. Evidently, it is not a slam dunk for the second loco to be used as a backup when they are mixed like that. Or maybe it was the GE that malfunctioned, and the Siemens couldn't go on a loan without it – who knows. If so - what's the point of two locomotives if one can't even pull an 8-car train as a backup?

 

[IndyLions]

 

[IndyLions]

View attachment 36199

Well... the locomotives are back, and I couldn't swear to it – but it might be the same two locomotives we had before in the opposite order.

They were gone for a good two or three hours – maybe headed to Sanford? They're working on getting everything reconnected now, hopefully everything goes as planned…

 

[AmtrakBlue]

View attachment 36200
Well... the locomotives are back, and I couldn't swear to it – but it might be the same two locomotives we had before in the opposite order.

They were gone for a good two or three hours – maybe headed to Sanford? They're working on getting everything reconnected now, hopefully everything goes as planned…

If the lead engine “died” then they would need to swap positions. And they would have to find a location to do that. Then there’s the connections to each other to deal with.

@IndyLions, remind me never to travel with you.

 

[IndyLions]

View attachment 36200
Well... the locomotives are back, and I couldn't swear to it – but it might be the same two locomotives we had before in the opposite order.

They were gone for a good two or three hours – maybe headed to Sanford? They're working on getting everything reconnected now, hopefully everything goes as planned…

Two hours and fifty minutes after reconnection of motive power - we're moving...

 

[west point]

Appears that you lost almost 8 hours from Winter Park / Orlando to Kissimmee. Location history seems to indicate that the locos changed positions somewhere south of Sandlake Sun Rail station. There is some trackage there that would allow swapping locos.

 

[IndyLions]

Appears that you lost almost 8 hours from Winter Park / Orlando to Kissimmee. Location history seems to indicate that the locos changed positions somewhere south of Sandlake Sun Rail station. There is some trackage there that would allow swapping locos.

Thanks for the info - that's interesting. It was a late night / early morning. But Amtrak was fair with us. They stored my bike at the Miami station so I could come back for it at a decent hour (we arrived in Miami at 3:45am). And unsolicited they sent a reasonable voucher for future travel.

 

[IndyLions]

Just curious - if both locos were GE or both Siemens - would they have to switch positions in order for the backup loco to take over?

I thought I remembered that you could control another locomotive from the lead position.

 

[jis]

Just curious - if both locos were GE or both Siemens - would they have to switch positions in order for the backup loco to take over?

I thought I remembered that you could control another locomotive from the lead position.

One reason they switch locos is if for some reason the PTC equipment fails in the lead loco or the Horn or Headlight fails. Those are mandatory for the lead locomotive but not for other locomotives in the lashup.

 

[OmahaRoad]

I'm onboard train 79, the Carolinian, and I think we just had a PTC failure or something else with the locomotive because we departed D.C. after the engine switch-out (7 minutes late despite arriving almost exactly on time) and then proceeded into the tunnel before stopping somewhere in it, waiting for around ~10 minutes, and then backing back to the station. They're replacing the locomotive..."no estimate of how long it will take." I didn't get to see what the loco was but now I'm wondering if it was a Charger or not. Does anyone know?

The PTC issues with Chargers on the Midwest services are well documented but I hadn't heard about anything with the ones starting to be used here out East. I mean I know it could be something else, but that would be my guess.

Edit: We're at tracks 23 and I just saw ALC-42 Charger 310 being backed opposite us on track 24. More evidence for a PTC failure. Passengers getting restless; we're going on an hour delayed.

Final edit: I asked a conductor, who had actually just asked the engineer what had happened, and (this is a new one, both to me and the conductor), the employee who was refueling the Charger put the "wrong diesel fuel" in the tank!

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I'm onboard train 79, the Carolinian, and I think we just had a PTC failure or something else with the locomotive because we departed D.C. after the engine switch-out (7 minutes late despite arriving almost exactly on time) and then proceeded into the tunnel before stopping somewhere in it, waiting for around ~10 minutes, and then backing back to the station. They're replacing the locomotive..."no estimate of how long it will take." I didn't get to see what the loco was but now I'm wondering if it was a Charger or not. Does anyone know?

The PTC issues with Chargers on the Midwest services are well documented but I hadn't heard about anything with the ones starting to be used here out East. I mean I know it could be something else, but that would be my guess.

Edit: We're at tracks 23 and I just saw ALC-42 Charger 310 being backed opposite us on track 24. More evidence for a PTC failure. Passengers getting restless; we're going on an hour delayed.

I kind of doubt it was a PTC failure since, I believe, they would have spent more time trying to get the PTC working before replacing the engine.

 

[OmahaRoad]

I kind of doubt it was a PTC failure since, I believe, they would have spent more time trying to get the PTC working before replacing the engine.

Indeed, you are correct! I added on to my above post, but in a new one for me, the Charger was refueled with the "wrong diesel fuel," and naturally the only way to fix that problem is to drain and refill the entire tank, which the conductor said (logically) would have taken longer/been more complicated than replacing the engine. So, I will apologize to Charger 310 for trying to implicate it in this delay! We're about an hour behind but will make up some time with the schedule padding between here and Raleigh.

 

[jis]

Indeed, you are correct! I added on to my above post, but in a new one for me, the Charger was refueled with the "wrong diesel fuel," and naturally the only way to fix that problem is to drain and refill the entire tank, which the conductor said (logically) would have taken longer/been more complicated than replacing the engine. So, I will apologize to Charger 310 for trying to implicate it in this delay! We're about an hour behind but will make up some time with the schedule padding between here and Raleigh.

Yikes! Hope they did not load up some diesel into the After Treatment Fluid Tank. That will take some significant effort to fix since the engines are not supposed to be operated with after treatment inoperative.

 

[MARC Rider]

Yikes! Hope they did not load up some diesel into the After Treatment Fluid Tank. That will take some significant effort to fix since the engines are not supposed to operated with after treatment inoperative.

"After treatment fluid?" Do you mean DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid")? Also known as AUS32 (32% Aqueous Urea Solution), needed for the SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction) Emissions reduction aftertreatment devices installed on all ne diesel engines. Yeah, I guess you wouldn't want to put diesel fuel in the DEF tank or vice versa.

 

[jis]

"After treatment fluid?" Do you mean DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid")? Also known as AUS32 (32% Aqueous Urea Solution), needed for the SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction) Emissions reduction aftertreatment devices installed on all ne diesel engines. Yeah, I guess you wouldn't want to put diesel fuel in the DEF tank or vice versa.

Yes and Yes.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Indeed, you are correct! I added on to my above post, but in a new one for me, the Charger was refueled with the "wrong diesel fuel," and naturally the only way to fix that problem is to drain and refill the entire tank, which the conductor said (logically) would have taken longer/been more complicated than replacing the engine. So, I will apologize to Charger 310 for trying to implicate it in this delay! We're about an hour behind but will make up some time with the schedule padding between here and Raleigh.

My friend who works in the yard says it’s impossible for them to use wrong diesel as they only have one kind. And Jis, they couldn’t put it in the other tank because the tanks use different size nozzles.
Sounds like the crew were telling you nonsense.

 

[jis]

My friend who works in the yard says it’s impossible for them to use wrong diesel as they only have one kind. And Jis, they couldn’t put it in the other tank because the tanks use different size nozzles.
Sounds like the crew were telling you nonsense.

Actually none of us really know what happened other than for whatever reason the locomotive could not continue to be operated. The rest is just hearsay and idle speculation.

 

[OmahaRoad]

Actually none of really know what happened other than for whatever reason the locomotive could not continue to be operated. The rest is just hearsay and idle speculation.

Correct, ha! As I said when I was chatting with the cafe/lounge attendant, it's hearsay that I heard from the conductor who said she heard it from the engineer, who maybe heard it from someone else in the first place I will say that I was skeptical of the idea that there was somehow more than one type of diesel fuel or that it would even be possible to do that, though I then would have to wonder how any Amtrak staff would have gotten that idea unless somebody was totally pulling their leg (which would be kinda mean!).

 

[west point]

Do not forget bio diesel. Do not believe it is approved into ALCs

 

[keelhauled]

I will say that I was skeptical of the idea that there was somehow more than one type of diesel fuel or that it would even be possible to do that.

It's possible that they have undyed on-road diesel on hand, although I can't think of any reason why that would find its way to locomotive fueling pads.

 

[John Santos]

It's possible that they have undyed on-road diesel on hand, although I can't think of any reason why that would find its way to locomotive fueling pads.

Pure speculation, but maybe it wasn't that they filled the locomotive tank from the wrong supply or using the wrong pump or nozzle, but that the fuel delivery company delivered the wrong grade of diesel fuel to Amtrak?

 

[OmahaRoad]

Now there's a possibility, and seemingly much more likely than the other possibilities! Would be interesting to find out what actually occurred. The one hour delay likely ended up costing us later (assuming we were 'out of slot' or whatever the term is?) with CSX, as we lost an additional ~45 minutes due to freight interference between D.C. and Raleigh. After I got off at Durham, train 79 lost another 20 minutes at one point between Durham and Burlington, which must have aggravated the passengers even more. Ended up 1 hr 44 mins late at Charlotte. Today's 79 was spared any bizarre locomotive issues and is just about on time around Alexandria.

I will say that a highlight of an otherwise frustrating trip was the incredibly good, chipper spirits and kindness of the cafe/lounge car attendant (didn't get her name); her cheery announcements alone brightened up everyone's spirits and she dealt with (as usual, I assume--was my first time taking 79 a long distance) a crush of customers on and off the whole trip.

 

[PVD]

Some years ago the boilers in the apt buildings in my coop used #4 oil. (now natural gas) One day the oil folks delivered 6000 gallons of #6 oil to the one next to mine, and that night temps dropped, and of course it all shut down. Temps dropped to very low, and it took quite a while with steam lines and kerosene to get it thin enough to pump out, and then the lines had to all be done. it does happen.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

Do not forget bio diesel. Do not believe it is approved into ALCs

Brightline Florida uses B20 biodiesel in its Chargers, supplied by FPL, branded EarthEra.

 

[cirdan]

I will say that I was skeptical of the idea that there was somehow more than one type of diesel fuel or that it would even be possible to do that,

There was a time that i was skeptical that there could be a wrong type of leaves or a wrong type of snow.

Wrong type of diesel could mean as little as that the fuel was contaminated. This might not necessarily be the fault of the guy who put the fuel in the engine but could happen anywhere upstream in the supply and delivery chain.